TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[AzeriTank]

Altay was also developed as the main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. South Korea was involved in the design and performance test of the composite armor of the Altay tank.


The Altay tank has thicker front/turret side armor than K2, and the accuracy rate should be higher than K2 when shooting a shell while stationary. The K2 turret side and the side armor are reduced due to the use of an autoloader. The Korean leadership is aware that the side armor of the K2 tank is weak, and started a program called K2 PIP.


In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armor performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor.


Its many criteria when we compare tanks such as features like unmanned turrets, active protection systems, advanced electronics, gunfire detection, and advanced composite armor.

In reality, Korea only offered to sell the armor, thats why Turkey tried to gain the armor technology from 3 different direction, purchasing armor technology factory in England, then in Finland, and then nurol was able to make bor carbor armor that only US, Turkey and Israel is able to make. On the other hand, just recently, another Turkish company was able to make an armor based on Graphite, which is the only light armor could stand against 762/51 bullet with less than a kg weight on soldier. But disadvantage of it, it has liitle more size compare to bor carbor. Both of them offer at least 2 times less weight that others. The only problem with bor based armor is its little on expensive side, as Turkey started to put them on Turkish ships like ada and istanbul class. Comparing how important is Altay to Turkish people, im sure they will apply it there too.

 

[bisbis]

Milgem için ana motor sormuyorum, İşbir'in yaptığı 4 jeneratör 750 kw güç taşıyan jeneratörleri soruyorum. Batu motor gücü 1000 kw'dan fazla.

,Batu engine Even if the generator is to be used for propulsion, it should be modified even the simplest, due to differences such as salty humidity in the operating environment. In fact, it should be in such a way that it will not be affected even when the section it is in is flooded, so that it should not reduce the survivability of the ship.

 

[Chocopie]

In reality, Korea only offered to sell the armor, thats why Turkey tried to gain the armor technology from 3 different direction, purchasing armor technology factory in England, then in Finland, and then nurol was able to make bor carbor armor that only US, Turkey and Israel is able to make. On the other hand, just recently, another Turkish company was able to make an armor based on Graphite, which is the only light armor could stand against 762/51 bullet with less than a kg weight on soldier. But disadvantage of it, it has liitle more size compare to bor carbor. Both of them offer at least 2 times less weight that others. The only problem with bor based armor is its little on expensive side, as Turkey started to put them on Turkish ships like ada and istanbul class. Comparing how important is Altay to Turkish people, im sure they will apply it there too.

„Bor carbor“? You surely mean boron carbide ceramic. Modern tank armor consist of Chobham style layers of composite material, ceramic tile, sandwiched in hardened steel plates. Graphene can also be applied as one of these layer materials.
Chobham armor tech with ceramic tile was literally invented bei UK, that you left out in your incorrect listing of „bor carbor armor that only US, Israel and Turkey is able to make“.

It‘s common tech since the late 70s and nowadays used by many modern tank producers worldwide.

The matrix mixture, structure and form (honeycomb, pellet) of these layers and plates are highly classified but the basic principle is well known.

Boron carbide is mainly used for ceramic tiles of body armor. For heavy armored vehicles silicon carbide is the favorite material (for example M1A2 Abrams and K2), it offers better protection against larger projectiles than boron carbide.

For the Altay prototype the transfer of armor package technology was done by Samyang Comtech (composite armor specialist). Testing of armor performance was done by Poongsan (ammunition manufacturer). Always in cooperation with Roketsan and Turkish engineers for sure.

A good overview of Korean tech transfer and co-work with Turkish side provides this Polish defence article. The Poles are trying to emulate the Turkish-Korean cooperation for setting up their indigenous K2PL/K9PL production:

Altay - An Example of Korean Armored Technology Transfer

Korean K2 Black Panther MBT is currently operated by the Armed Forces of the Republic of Korea. It is also being offered as an export product to a couple of nations, Poland and Norway included. The K2 MBT design has also become a base platform for the Altay MBT, developed by Turkey, within the...

defence24.com

 

[Afif]

In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armor performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor.

Bro! DM63 wont be able penetrate majority of 3rd gen MBTs front armor.

it has around 700mm of penetration capability. and it is no match for DU APSFDS.

i believe Altay has much higher level of protection.
maybe around 1200mm/1300mm.
But, that is just my guestimate.

 

[Chocopie]

And to add: That Korean armor tech was transferred in 2008/09, and surely further modified since. It has basically UK, US and Soviet armor DNA:

1. US obtained Chobham armor from UK during development of M1 Abrams.

2. Koreans gained armor tech through development of K1 MBT (based on XK-1 prototype by then Chrysler Defense, now General Dynamics Land System).

3. Koreans combined some useful T-80U armor tech (original T-80U MBT received as debt payment from Russia) with their US influenced composite armor for K2.

As in many Korean weapon systems they take the best of two worlds: Inspired by Soviet sturdy and simple but often brilliant engineering mixed with US/European cutting-edge sophistication refined with Korean electronics capabilities. Result: Cost efficient, mass produced high tech weapons made in Korea.

 

[Gary]

Bro! DM63 wont be able penetrate majority of 3rd gen MBTs front armor.

it has around 700mm of penetration capability. and it is no match for DU APSFDS.

i believe Altay has much higher level of protection.
maybe around 1200mm/1300mm.
But, that is just my guestimate.

Most penetration data occurs at a distance of 2000m a 60 deg sloped RHA armor. The value of 700mm penetration will increase if engagements are closer. Iirc, from a Singaporean tankers training in Grafenwöhr, most real life tank contact came at about ~600-800 metres. So while in testing the DM63 would not be sufficient, in real life situation it will. We have seen numerous video on ancient T-64/72 prolly using mango rounds penetrating each other in Ukraine.

 

[Afif]

Most penetration data occurs at a distance of 2000m a 60 deg sloped RHA armor. The value of 700mm penetration will increase if engagements are closer. Iirc, from a Singaporean tankers training in Grafenwöhr, most real life tank contact came at about ~600-800 metres. So while in testing the DM63 would not be sufficient, in real life situation it will. We have seen numerous video on ancient T-64/72 prolly using mango rounds penetrating each other in Ukraine.

I know, at 1km DM63 has around 850/900mm penotration but it is still not sufficient against turret's frontal section of tanks lile chalanger ii, leopard 2 a6/7, type 99A, Abrams1A2 Sep2/3.

 

[Baljak]

In reality, Korea only offered to sell the armor, thats why Turkey tried to gain the armor technology from 3 different direction, purchasing armor technology factory in England, then in Finland, and then nurol was able to make bor carbor armor that only US, Turkey and Israel is able to make. On the other hand, just recently, another Turkish company was able to make an armor based on Graphite, which is the only light armor could stand against 762/51 bullet with less than a kg weight on soldier. But disadvantage of it, it has liitle more size compare to bor carbor. Both of them offer at least 2 times less weight that others. The only problem with bor based armor is its little on expensive side, as Turkey started to put them on Turkish ships like ada and istanbul class. Comparing how important is Altay to Turkish people, im sure they will apply it there too.

Most Turks still mistakenly believe that Roketsan designed and produced Altay's Armour package, but this is not true. Altay's Armour package was designed by Samyang Comtech, a South Korean manufacturer of bulletproof equipment, at the request of Otokar, and Roketsan was just a producer of the Armour package.

When I participated in Altay's Armor Package design for three years, four Korean companies in charge of design assistance and technology transfer to Otokar knew that the project would start in 2009 and end in 2013.

But after Altay's first prototype, FTR, was developed in 2012, Otokar suddenly said another requirement. They told us to change the design of Altay's modular armour. Redesigning the Armor structure of the tank was the same difficult task as dismantling and re-creating the tank, and two or three years were far from enough for us. After that, we worked on the additional design of Altay's armour structure until early 2015, and the project ended one years later in 2016.

In the past, South Korea was able to obtain M1 Abrams' Special Armor Plate (SAP) technology implicitly from the United States, and applied the newly developed KSAP based on SAP to K2 through the K1A1 development program. When we completed the Altay FTR, we designed the composite armour with Silicon Carbide (SiC), not Boron Carbide (B4C), and Altay had the same armour structure as Korean Special Armor Plate (KSAP), K2's armour package. We were able to increase the ballistic protection level of Altay's front armour by stacking ceramic layers thicker than K2's ceramic plate when designing Altay's composite armour.

When talking about the excellence of Altay, Turks often tend to blindly believe in boron carbide as a kind of super technology, but in fact, Boron Carbide (B4C) is not much different in hardness from Silicon Carbide (SiC). For boron carbide, Mohs hardness is 9 to 10 and silicon carbide is 9+. In addition, in the case of boron carbide, materials are available relatively cheaply, but the manufacturing process is more demanding than silicon carbide.

In South Korea, Silicon Carbide is cheaper to manufacture due to the development of the semiconductor and electronics industries, so Silicon Carbide is mainly used for tanks and armored vehicles in Korea. The reason why we don't use boron carbide in tanks or armored vehicles in Korea is because of economic problems, not technical problems.

In my personal opinion, if change the material of Altay's composite armour to silicon carbide instead of boron carbide, the production price of Altay may become cheaper in the future.

Because Turkey started fostering the semiconductor industry around the same time as South Korea, and although there are no nano-scale ultra-fine semiconductor process production facilities like Korea, but Turkey still has factory facilities that produce many electronic products. For Turkey, it is clear that silicon carbide is cheaper to produce than boron carbide.

 

[TR_123456]

In my personal opinion, if change the material of Altay's composite armour to silicon carbide instead of boron carbide, the production price of Altay may become cheaper in the future.

You know we have the highest Boron reserves in the world,right?
It would be almost for free for domestic use.

 

[Hasanrize]

You know we have the highest Boron reserves in the world,right?
It would be almost for free for domestic use.

Boron is almost worthless when it comes to price. So it doesn't matter if we have %76 of the world's total reserve or not. The price of boron in production is just a very tiny part of the total production cost; this would be the same for any other country as well since they will buy it from us just a little more expensive than free.

 

[TR_123456]

Boron is almost worthless when it comes to price. So it doesn't matter if we have %76 of the world's total reserve or not. The price of boron in production is just a very tiny part of the total production cost; this would be the same for any other country as well since they will buy it from us just a little more expensive than free.

Didnt we have production facilities for all kinds of Boron based products already?

 

[TheInsider]

Altay won't have Korean armor. We transferred technology from Korea in the past but that is not the current case. Things changed a lot since then.
Altay armor will use Titanium Diboride, Boron Carbide, and Silicon Carbide. Things don't stop here. We are adding some materials like graphene to those base materials to improve their mechanical properties further. Exact formulas and exact sandwich layers are highly classified. Production recipes like sintering pressure and temperature etc are also classified.

 

[Hasanrize]

Didnt we have production facilities for all kinds of Boron based products already?

We had facilities for what we needed; if we needed Boron Carbide, we probably had it or establish it. There is no problem with it. What I am saying is that the price of the boron is so minuscule that it doesn't affect the price of the final product.

Boron is so worthless that we process it to boric acid and export it because no one wants to give a penny for raw boron.

 

[Hasanrize]

Didnt we have production facilities for all kinds of Boron based products already?

Also, this legend that we have the largest reserve of boron is so strategic should end. Yes, we have the largest reserve of it, but demand for it is too low that it almost had no strategic value for us.

Also, we need to keep in mind that boron is involved in almost all high-end technology. But price and strategic value are determined by demand and rarity.

 

[TR_123456]

Also, this legend that we have the largest reserve of boron is so strategic should end. Yes, we have the largest reserve of it, but demand for it is too low that it almost had no strategic value for us.

Also, we need to keep in mind that boron is involved in almost all high-end technology. But price and strategic value are determined by demand and rarity.

The demand or the sales are not of any importance to our military needs.
I want to know if we can produce products like Boron Carbide cheap inhouse?

 

[AzeriTank]

„Bor carbor“? You surely mean boron carbide ceramic. Modern tank armor consist of Chobham style layers of composite material, ceramic tile, sandwiched in hardened steel plates. Graphene can also be applied as one of these layer materials.
Chobham armor tech with ceramic tile was literally invented bei UK, that you left out in your incorrect listing of „bor carbor armor that only US, Israel and Turkiye is able to make“.

It‘s common tech since the late 70s and nowadays used by many modern tank producers worldwide.

The matrix mixture, structure and form (honeycomb, pellet) of these layers and plates are highly classified but the basic principle is well known.

Boron carbide is mainly used for ceramic tiles of body armor. For heavy armored vehicles silicon carbide is the favorite material (for example M1A2 Abrams and K2), it offers better protection against larger projectiles than boron carbide.

For the Altay prototype the transfer of armor package technology was done by Samyang Comtech (composite armor specialist). Testing of armor performance was done by Poongsan (ammunition manufacturer). Always in cooperation with Roketsan and Turkish engineers for sure.

A good overview of Korean tech transfer and co-work with Turkish side provides this Polish defence article. The Poles are trying to emulate the Turkish-Korean cooperation for setting up their indigenous K2PL/K9PL production:

Altay - An Example of Korean Armored Technology Transfer

Korean K2 Black Panther MBT is currently operated by the Armed Forces of the Republic of Korea. It is also being offered as an export product to a couple of nations, Poland and Norway included. The K2 MBT design has also become a base platform for the Altay MBT, developed by Turkey, within the...

defence24.com

This is what im talking about, it was also mentioned by the Turkish minister that only US and Israel is able to make it. Guy could translate for you.
Italy also import it from Turkey
It is Bor carbor ceramic and they say the export price for each kg od such product is 90$

 

[AzeriTank]

Most Turks still mistakenly believe that Roketsan designed and produced Altay's Armour package, but this is not true. Altay's Armour package was designed by Samyang Comtech, a South Korean manufacturer of bulletproof equipment, at the request of Otokar, and Roketsan was just a producer of the Armour package.

When I participated in Altay's Armor Package design for three years, four Korean companies in charge of design assistance and technology transfer to Otokar knew that the project would start in 2009 and end in 2013.

But after Altay's first prototype, FTR, was developed in 2012, Otokar suddenly said another requirement. They told us to change the design of Altay's modular armour. Redesigning the Armor structure of the tank was the same difficult task as dismantling and re-creating the tank, and two or three years were far from enough for us. After that, we worked on the additional design of Altay's armour structure until early 2015, and the project ended one years later in 2016.

In the past, South Korea was able to obtain M1 Abrams' Special Armor Plate (SAP) technology implicitly from the United States, and applied the newly developed KSAP based on SAP to K2 through the K1A1 development program. When we completed the Altay FTR, we designed the composite armour with Silicon Carbide (SiC), not Boron Carbide (B4C), and Altay had the same armour structure as Korean Special Armor Plate (KSAP), K2's armour package. We were able to increase the ballistic protection level of Altay's front armour by stacking ceramic layers thicker than K2's ceramic plate when designing Altay's composite armour.

When talking about the excellence of Altay, Turks often tend to blindly believe in boron carbide as a kind of super technology, but in fact, Boron Carbide (B4C) is not much different in hardness from Silicon Carbide (SiC). For boron carbide, Mohs hardness is 9 to 10 and silicon carbide is 9+. In addition, in the case of boron carbide, materials are available relatively cheaply, but the manufacturing process is more demanding than silicon carbide.

In South Korea, Silicon Carbide is cheaper to manufacture due to the development of the semiconductor and electronics industries, so Silicon Carbide is mainly used for tanks and armored vehicles in Korea. The reason why we don't use boron carbide in tanks or armored vehicles in Korea is because of economic problems, not technical problems.

In my personal opinion, if change the material of Altay's composite armour to silicon carbide instead of boron carbide, the production price of Altay may become cheaper in the future.

Because Turkiye started fostering the semiconductor industry around the same time as South Korea, and although there are no nano-scale ultra-fine semiconductor process production facilities like Korea, but Turkiye still has factory facilities that produce many electronic products. For Turkiye, it is clear that silicon carbide is cheaper to produce than boron carbide.

How come Turkey recieved the technology from you that it only started to produce it in 2022? Also they openly mention that only USA and Israel is able to make it.
or how come they started to export it to Italy and other unidentified countries by 90$ per kg(this is a lot if you add tond of armor).
it doesnt addes up well.
Or why did Turkey invest huge amount to English and Finish factory if they had this technology?
if you have proof, please show, otherwise ill start pretending im the defence minister spokeperson of Azerbaijan, or a SF who climbed the mountains of Shusha in Karabagh war))

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Chocopie , @AzeriTank
The Turkish name for this chemical is “Bor Karbür”. English name İis “Boron Carbide”.
Since we are communicating in English we should endeavour to use the English names of chemicals too so that it is more eligible to everyone.

@AzeriTank , I suggest you read the post of @Baljak one more time before you insinuate that he is telling porkies! It has nothing to do with what you are writing.
Also please read the @TheInsider ’s post and other posts related to this subject where it is explained that the armour story is not finished yet.

Edit: Sorry about the “cockney” idiom of “porkies” . In London dialect pork-pies rhyme with lies So porkies is the shortened version meaning lies.

 

[Chocopie]

This is what im talking about, it was also mentioned by the Turkish minister that only US and Israel is able to make it. Guy could translate for you.
Italy also import it from Turkiye
It is Bor carbor ceramic and they say the export price for each kg od such product is 90$

Thanks for the clips. I don‘t understand about what technology the minister is exactly talking about But you can even order boron carbide ceramic tiles and plates on Alibaba from Chinese manufacturers. It‘s a common item.

Alibaba.com

Alibaba.com

m.alibaba.com

 

[TheInsider]

Thanks for the clips. I don‘t understand about what technology the minister is exactly talking about But you can even order boron carbide ceramic tiles and plates on Alibaba from Chinese manufacturers. It‘s a common item.

Alibaba.com

Alibaba.com

m.alibaba.com

Yes, you can order basic boron carbide ceramic tiles from various sources but not all of the Boron Carbides are the same. Depending on the production process and the small amount of additive materials added in the production, the mechanical properties of Boron Carbide and other armor materials change. It is like steel production.

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

Enhanced mechanical properties of nanocrystalline boron carbide by nanoporosity and interface phases - Nature Communications

The mechanical properties of structural ceramics are characterized by a high degree of fragility and brittleness. This study demonstrates that, contrary to expectation, their brittleness can be reduced substantially by introducing nanopores together with weak grain boundary phases.

www.nature.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343309600_MECHANICAL_PROPERTIES_ENHANCEMENT_OF_BORON_CARBIDE_BASED_ARMOUR_MATERIALS

Twins enhanced mechanical properties of boron carbide

Boron carbide (B4C), an important structural ceramic with low toughness, is regarded as a potential bulletproof material for personnel and vehicles. I…

www.sciencedirect.com