TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Anastasius]

Why Turkiye choose to put loader crew instead of Auto loader?

So that if comes down to tank crew vs. tank crew fistfights, Turkish crew will have a 1-man advantage against auto-loader crew.

 

[Windchime]

Perhaps the reason for testing an older tried engine is due to the reliability. I would probably prefer the first 250 Altay to have same engine even if it means an older one as long as it's reliable. The next 250 could be based on a newer tech.

I'm not sure if the old one has been proven to be unreliable and the new one is almost a complete unknown in terms of reliability. As I've wrote, one of the problem with the older version was that it had foreign parts of which the control and supervision of S&T was harder to achieve than had it been Korean.

 

[zio]

So that if comes down to tank crew vs. tank crew fistfights, Turkish crew will have a 1-man advantage against auto-loader crew.

You can change ammunution type quickly by manuel but you can not on autoloader

 

[Fairon]

4 man tank crews also have an advantage on field repairs.(Especially with tracks) At least this is the reason why US still favors 4 man crew.

I think we will continue to have 4 man crew even if we move on to the automated turret. 4th man can operate drones launched from tank. (This lookes to be will became a norm)

 

[Chocopie]

4 man tank crews also have an advantage on field repairs.(Especially with tracks) At least this is the reason why US still favors 4 man crew.

I think we will continue to have 4 man crew even if we move on to the automated turret. 4th man can operate drones launched from tank. (This lookes to be will became a norm)

In future every MBT with 130 mm canon will feature autoloader (see tech demonstrators Rheinmetall KF-51, GDELS AbramsX) simply due to weight of heavier shells. For 120 mm MBTs it depends on doctrine and manpower if autoloader or not.

 

[Ripley]

In future every MBT with 130 mm canon will feature autoloader (see tech demonstrators Rheinmetall KF-51, GDELS AbramsX) simply due to weight of heavier shells. For 120 mm MBTs it depends on doctrine and manpower if autoloader or not.

If my memory serves me well, it was planned to eliminate the manned turret and introduce 130mm gun on Altay Batch 3. Was it in the original road map or the batches were redesignated later, that I can’t remember. Sorry.

At any rate, due to cumbersome size of 130mm gun, unmanned turrets are a necessity for future tank designs rather than user’s choice, like you pointed out.

 

[Gary]

Everyone is going big on the longer penetrator rod offered by >120mm rounds. Just look at the length and imagine the weight on each of these, autoloader is a must.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603690721306742784

If Turkiye decide to go for 130mm, then I expect a significant rework or even a brand new turret to be installed.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I don't think we will need a gun stronger than 120 mm in Altay. If there is such a thing, IMO we do not choose 130 mm in order not to depend on the Germans, instead we develop something derivative of the Otobreda 127/54 Compact naval gun.

 

[Afif]

I don't think we will need a gun stronger than 120 mm in Altay. If there is such a thing, IMO we do not choose 130 mm in order not to depend on the Germans, instead we develop something derivative of the Otobreda 127/54 Compact naval gun.

130mm is the future if you think for next 20 30 years. because current best120mm APDS wont penetrate more than 1100mm, while all first tier 3rd gen MBT has more than 1300mm/1400mm level of protection from front turret section.

 

[Heartbang]

130mm is the future

I think we are not in that future yet. 120 mm can hold out for a while with advancements in stuff like propellant composure, telescopic sabot rounds, etc.

 

[Fairon]

I don't think we will need a gun stronger than 120 mm in Altay. If there is such a thing, IMO we do not choose 130 mm in order not to depend on the Germans, instead we develop something derivative of the Otobreda 127/54 Compact naval gun.

I don't think we will. I would agree with you before but nowadays I trust the abilities of MKE. They've changed. If there is a request I believe MKE can develop a 130mm gun by themselves.

At worst, if they can't at first in the end we would end up with 3 companies that developed 130mm guns. It is the new norm now

 

[Merzifonlu]

It is the new norm now

The 130 mm gun has not yet become the norm. Just a suggestion at the moment by Germans. If the 127 mm naval gun-based gun can use common components with naval systems without losing any of its performance, the German proposal for price may be invalid. Why should we leave norm-setting to the Germans? We can take the Italians with us and take a position that suits our interests.

 

[Fairon]

The 130 mm gun has not yet become the norm. Just a suggestion at the moment by Germans. If the 127 mm naval gun-based gun can use common components with naval systems without losing any of its performance, the German proposal for price may be invalid. Why should we leave norm-setting to the Germans? We can take the Italians with us and take a position that suits our interests.

I didn't mean 130mm guns as norm. I meant we are ending up with couple of compaines that produces a system that we had problems to acquire.(Like engines or 30mm guns etc)

 

[Merzifonlu]

I didn't mean 130mm guns as norm. I meant we are ending up with couple of compaines that produces a system that we had problems to acquire.(Like engines or 30mm guns etc)

Oh, OK then.

 

[zio]

One other thing tanks are getting multiple sensors may be an micro uavs to manage,thats needs a person or autonoum systems

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Basic differences out of my head …

Altay: 7 wheels, 65t, 4 men crew because no autoloader, RCWS, higher ballistic protection with modified composite armor based on Korean tech by Roketsan, many Turkish sub-components like Fire Control System, Akkor APS maybe installed.

K2 Black Panther: 6 wheels, 55t, autoloader with 3 men crew, Korean subsystems with laser/radar sensors and FCS, soft kill APS (hard kill KAPS not installed due to tank battle doctrine with nearby infantry), no RCWS (ROK Army generals are stingy)

Altay was also developed as the main battle tank with heavy armor, but the K2 is a mobility tank for operation in mountainous terrain. South Korea was involved in the design and performance test of the composite armor of the Altay tank.


The Altay tank has thicker front/turret side armor than K2, and the accuracy rate should be higher than K2 when shooting a shell while stationary. The K2 turret side and the side armor are reduced due to the use of an autoloader. The Korean leadership is aware that the side armor of the K2 tank is weak, and started a program called K2 PIP.


In addition, a Korean ammunition producer in charge of designing Altay's composite armor and transferring bulletproof test technology tested the armor performance of Altay tanks with DM63, and DM63 failed to penetrate Altay's front armor and side turret armor.


Its many criteria when we compare tanks such as features like unmanned turrets, active protection systems, advanced electronics, gunfire detection, and advanced composite armor.

 

[bisbis]

Can we use batu engine as a core for milgems generators?

What do you mean by core engine, if you are producing 3-4 batu engine body together and making an average 5000hp marine engine, no, it is not that easy.

A separate project should be started for the 5000 horsepower marine engine, the engine should be designed from the beginning.

But as a technological, it becomes a core technology. Here's the engine design abilitys, turbo, supercharger, engine control software, metallurgy, engine manufacturing techniques, engine testing infrastructure etc. This is a nice infrastructure.

In this law, train engines were closer to marine engines. For example, a domestic engine derived from the train engine was fitted to the car ferry operating in Lake Van.

Again, the Tümosan has a small marine engine initiative.

Also, our navy uses Codag combined power group on their ships. That is, a piston engine and a turbine, that is, a derivative of an aircraft engine. For now, there is no problem in finding a marine engine. Already Milgems has Mtu piston engine.

But the troublesome turbine engine manufacturer is few. I think tei should work on this as well as bmc power.

 

[TheInsider]

I'm against the serial production with the Korean powerpack as the Batu project is at such an advanced stage. We should still integrate the Korean powerpack and keep it as an alternative if things go bad with Batu but at this point, we will gain something like 6 months or 1 year at most with the Korean powerpack. Better wait another 6-12 months rather than start serial production and produce dozens of tanks with a Korean powerpack.

We should also, scrap Altay T1, or just produce a very low amount of T1 for the trials and produce a bare minimum amount of Altay T2 for the needs of Turkish land forces and we should start designing a completely new tank from the scratch rather than heavily modifying T2 and calling it T3.

 

[bisbis]

I'm against the serial production with the Korean powerpack as the Batu project is at such an advanced stage. We should still integrate the Korean powerpack and keep it as an alternative if things go bad with Batu but at this point, we will gain something like 6 months or 1 year at most with the Korean powerpack. Better wait another 6-12 months rather than start serial production and produce dozens of tanks with a Korean powerpack.

We should also, scrap Altay T1, or just produce a very low amount of T1 for the trials and produce a bare minimum amount of Altay T2 for the needs of Turkish land forces and we should start designing a completely new tank from the scratch rather than heavily modifying T2 and calling it T3.

Yes you are right. But, Trakya is waiting for the Altay tank, northern Syria is waiting for the Altay tank, Tcg Anadolu is waiting for the Altay tank, the amphibious landing unit is waiting for the Altay tank, Cyprus is waiting for the Altay tank, the Aegean army is waiting for the Altay tank. lots of waiting.

Maybe Azerbaijan waits for the Altay tank, Libya waits for the Altay tank, Qatar waits for the Altay tank, maybe Pakistan waits for the Altay tank, maybe Iraq waits for the Altay tank.

I don't know This country how to wait a Batu engine?

 

[zio]

What do you mean by core engine, if you are producing 3-4 batu engine body together and making an average 5000hp marine engine, no, it is not that easy.

A separate project should be started for the 5000 horsepower marine engine, the engine should be designed from the beginning.

But as a technological, it becomes a core technology. Here's the engine design abilitys, turbo, supercharger, engine control software, metallurgy, engine manufacturing techniques, engine testing infrastructure etc. This is a nice infrastructure.

In this law, train engines were closer to marine engines. For example, a domestic engine derived from the train engine was fitted to the car ferry operating in Lake Van.

Again, the Tümosan has a small marine engine initiative.

Also, our navy uses Codag combined power group on their ships. That is, a piston engine and a turbine, that is, a derivative of an aircraft engine. For now, there is no problem in finding a marine engine. Already Milgems has Mtu piston engine.

But the troublesome turbine engine manufacturer is few. I think tei should work on this as well as bmc power.

I am not asking main engine for milgem,I am asking about generators made by işbir which carries a 750 kw power each 4 generators.Batu engine power more than 1000 kw.