TR Artillery Systems & Projects

[Yasar_TR]

Roketsan TRLG-122
View attachment 30121 View attachment 30123

It is Turkish

Çap	122 mm
Ağırlık	76 kg
Menzil	13-30 km
Güdüm	ANS* + LAB*
Kontrol	Elektromekanik Tahrik Sistemli Aerodinamik Kontrol
Yakıt Tipi	Kompozit Katı
Harp Başlığı Tipi	Tahrip + Çelik Bilyeli
Harp Başlığı Ağırlığı	~13,5 kg
Harp Başlığı Etkili Yarıçapı	≥40 m
Tapa Tipi	Yaklaşma ve Çarpma
Raf Ömrü	10 yıl
Doğruluk	≤2 m

122 mm’lik füzelere lazer arayıcı başlık yeteneği

Roketsan’ın 122 milimetrelik füzeye lazer arayıcı başlık kazandırmak için geliştirdiği TRLG-122 sayesinde işaretlenen hedefe nokta atışı yapabilecek.

www.defenceturk.net

Do we know the range of this rocket when launched from a UAV? The range given here is land launched range. When launched at altitude it should be much further. We should be looking at well within stand off distances.
This missile travels at over 3 Mach. It’s apogee is around 20km. So if launched at 10-12 km altitude, it won’t have to travel much to reach it’s apogee and not waste too much of it’s fuel in overcoming gravity. Plus it will have an initial speed of nearly 0.4 Mach if launched from a UAV like Akinci. It will hit it’s target at a speed of 2.5 - 3 Mach.

 

[TheInsider]

When launched from the air it doesn't follow a ballistic trajectory(It will fly mostly in a straight line rather than an arc) so it will have a little more than double the range. Otherwise, it should at least have triple the range if fired at the same ballistic trajectory.

 

[Turko]

Do we know the range of this rocket when launched from a UAV? The range given here is land launched range. When launched at altitude it should be much further. We should be looking at well within stand off distances.
This missile travels at over 3 Mach. It’s apogee is around 20km. So if launched at 10-12 km altitude, it won’t have to travel much to reach it’s apogee and not waste too much of it’s fuel in overcoming gravity. Plus it will have an initial speed of nearly 0.4 Mach if launched from a UAV like Akinci. It will hit it’s target at a speed of 2.5 - 3 Mach.

Next step:

İ cant understand why TRG122 has 12km minumum range since it has laser guidance. If TRG120 were stabile at very short range, They could be used as LOSAT

 

[Trakya_forever]

@TheInsider Any plans for Air launched variant of TRG 300? Do you have any info?

 

[Yasar_TR]

When launched from the air it doesn't follow a ballistic trajectory(It will fly mostly in a straight line rather than an arc) so it will have a little more than double the range. Otherwise, it should at least have triple the range if fired at the same ballistic trajectory.

I’m afraid you are commenting on stuff you don’t know again. All missiles of the TRG family have a ballistic flight path in one way or another.
Ballistic means moving under the force of Earth’s gravity.
All these missiles (TRG 122, 230, 300, Bora) they are all what we would call quasi ballistic missiles. No projectile can go in a straight line. (Even bullets do not fly in a straight line).
trg122, has a maximum apogee of 18-22km. Depending on the target distance this may be shorter.
TRG230 and Trg300 have apogees of around 30-40 km.
Bora has an apogee of 40-60km.
these missiles burn almost all of their fuel to reach their apogee. Then travel a bit more whilst losing speed. Then start falling back to earth and gain speed.
If launched at 12km altitude it will start making this exact “ARC” movement at that altitude but will land much further depending on the missile aerodynamic properties.
Grand father of all 122mm rockets is the Soviet built GRAD. Here is the flight characteristics:

 

[Yasar_TR]

Next step:
View attachment 30152

İ cant understand why TRG122 has 12km minumum range since it has laser guidance. If TRG120 were stabile at very short range, They could be used as LOSAT

TRG122 has a maximum range of 35 km. Not 12km.
earlier tr122 missiles had 20km range. TR 122 has a max range of 40 km.

TRG-122 Guided Rocket – Roketsan

T-122 MBRL MULTI BARREL ROCKET LAUNCHER (MBRL) SYSTEM – Roketsan

 

[Yasar_TR]

@TheInsider
This is to show you how the same rocket propelled missile when launched from a fighter jet at different air speeds and different altitudes “could” travel .
As you can see they are all following an arc. And the movement is ballistic.

 

[Anmdt]

TRG122 has a maximum range of 35 km. Not 12km.
earlier tr122 missiles had 20km range. TR 122 has a max range of 40 km.

TRG-122 Guided Rocket – Roketsan

T-122 MBRL MULTI BARREL ROCKET LAUNCHER (MBRL) SYSTEM – Roketsan

@UkroTurk 🚬 says the 'minimum' range of the missile so that it can be used as an anti-tank when needed.

Meanwhile i think a shorter minimum range can also make it much more available for the ships. The anti-symmetrical threats are a growing threat and GPS + SAL or SACLOS + Imaging + optionally GPS could be nice to eliminate those anti-symmetrical threats.

Or even good for precision shore bombardment prior to the landing. In my opinion we will see trlg-122, 230 and 300 on Bayraktar class more often. And even will be included in the basic configuration of the newer 2 hulls.

If they could fit 2 x 12 122, 2 x 6 230 and 2 x 4 300 covering a good range, that would be a decent firepower.

 

[TheInsider]

I’m afraid you are commenting on stuff you don’t know again. All missiles of the TRG family have a ballistic flight path in one way or another.
Ballistic means moving under the force of Earth’s gravity.
All these missiles (TRG 122, 230, 300, Bora) they are all what we would call quasi ballistic missiles. No projectile can go in a straight line. (Even bullets do not fly in a straight line).
trg122, has a maximum apogee of 18-22km. Depending on the target distance this may be shorter.
TRG230 and Trg300 have apogees of around 30-40 km.
Bora has an apogee of 40-60km.
these missiles burn almost all of their fuel to reach their apogee. Then travel a bit more whilst losing speed. Then start falling back to earth and gain speed.
If launched at 12km altitude it will start making this exact “ARC” movement at that altitude but will land much further depending on the missile aerodynamic properties.
Grand father of all 122mm rockets is the Soviet built GRAD. Here is the flight characteristics:
View attachment 30164 View attachment 30163

I told straight to explain it in a simple way. Air launched ballistic missiles follow a different ballistic trajectory compared to their ground launch variants. It is like a compressed ballistic trajectory. So your Grad-ER example has no basis. You can expect around double the range( a bit higher) when you fire a TRLG-122 or TRLG-230 from an aircraft. Come here again when official air-launched ranges of those weapons are announced and see that it is exactly like what i said.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@UkroTurk 🚬 says the 'minimum' range of the missile so that it can be used as an anti-tank when needed.

Meanwhile i think a shorter minimum range can also make it much more available for the ships. The anti-symmetrical threats are a growing threat and GPS + SAL or SACLOS + Imaging + optionally GPS could be nice to eliminate those anti-symmetrical threats.

Or even good for precision shore bombardment prior to the landing. In my opinion we will see trlg-122, 230 and 300 on Bayraktar class more often. And even will be included in the basic configuration of the newer 2 hulls.

If they could fit 2 x 12 122, 2 x 6 230 and 2 x 4 300 covering a good range, that would be a decent firepower.

Sorry @UkroTurk 🚬 ,
I should read more carefully! You are correct.
The minimum range is not low. But remember that these are quasi ballistic 2-3 Mach speed rockets. They have to go up with propellant, then come down at free fall. If they were like Umtas/Hellfire 1.5 Mach rockets with rocket thrust till it hits the target, then yes they could be used from the barrel of a gun. Then we are talking about longer version of Tanok with 8-10km range.
But as per @Anmdt has stated; Like the Bayraktar Class 122mm trials, where these rockets were fired from our LST, if applied to TRG230 and TRG300 rockets too, it will prove invaluable. Precision bombing capability of land targets from BVR distances will make our naval platforms even deadlier.

 

[Manomed]

Is there any info on the air launched variations of trg-300?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I told straight to explain it in a simple way. Air launched ballistic missiles follow a different ballistic trajectory compared to their ground launch variants. It is like a compressed ballistic trajectory. So your Grad-ER example has no basis. You can expect around double the range( a bit higher) when you fire a TRLG-122 or TRLG-230 from an aircraft. Come here again when official air-launched ranges of those weapons are announced and see that it is exactly like what i said.

You are doing it again. You are making presumptions without scientific background. I have given you sources and tried to explain the mechanics of ballistic flight.
First you said “Air launched missiles do not follow ballistic trajectory”. Now you say they follow a different ballistic trajectory.
Please make your mind up! Do they or don’t they?
Well I’ll tell you, that air launched ballistic missiles have very similar trajectory to ground launched ones. The only difference is that they fall further. That is the basic principle of projectile flight if you look at the first year advanced applied maths books. Grad ER example shows the trajectory of ground launched 122mm artillery rockets. And it is very relevant. That trajectory applies to all similar rockets. If launched from air, then look at the three graphs at my post #167. Similar flight paths. But different launch altitudes and ranges.
Now, with respect to how much further an air launched rocket will go; It “probably” will go double or more distance depending on rocket’s aerodynamic profile. (A good point of reference is TRGL230. It has 70km range when launched from land. But has a range of 150+km if air launched). So pro-rata we can expect in excess of 60km distance for TRG122 if air launched.
Now if you have calculated that it will go double distance, please share here how you have done it so that we will learn as well!

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is there any info on the air launched variations of trg-300?

You may look at Israeli “Rampage” missile.
It is a 300mm diameter guided artillery rocket with a different seeker head adjusted to be used from F16 fighters at high altitude and high speed. They have fitted 4 of them on each jet.

 

[Trakya_forever]

For Air lauched variants maybe we can use different guidance types in future.

 

[TheInsider]

You are doing it again. You are making presumptions without scientific background. I have given you sources and tried to explain the mechanics of ballistic flight.
First you said “Air launched missiles do not follow ballistic trajectory”. Now you say they follow a different ballistic trajectory.
Please make your mind up! Do they or don’t they?
Well I’ll tell you, that air launched ballistic missiles have very similar trajectory to ground launched ones. The only difference is that they fall further. That is the basic principle of projectile flight if you look at the first year advanced applied maths books. Grad ER example shows the trajectory of ground launched 122mm artillery rockets. And it is very relevant. That trajectory applies to all similar rockets. If launched from air, then look at the three graphs at my post #167. Similar flight paths. But different launch altitudes and ranges.
Now, with respect to how much further an air launched rocket will go; It “probably” will go double or more distance depending on rocket’s aerodynamic profile. (A good point of reference is TRGL230. It has 70km range when launched from land. But has a range of 150+km if air launched). So pro-rata we can expect in excess of 60km distance for TRG122 if air launched.
Now if you have calculated that it will go double distance, please share here how you have done it so that we will learn as well!

A good rule of thumb is an air-launched identical rocket can go triple the range compared to the ground variant. For example when launched from a NASAMS system AMRAAM missile can only reach 1/3 of its air-launched range. But since TRLG-122 and TRLG-230 will have compressed, straighter ballistic trajectory those won't go as far as triple the range of identical ground variants. They won't be climbing at a 45-degree angle until the engine burnout for the maximum range.

 

[Abdelaziz]

I have a question ..could any one illustrate the pros and cons of hybrid power groups like in E.firtina ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

View attachment 30266

A good rule of thumb is an air-launched identical rocket can go triple the range compared to the ground variant. For example when launched from a NASAMS system AMRAAM missile can only reach 1/3 of its air-launched range. But since TRLG-122 and TRLG-230 will have compressed, straighter ballistic trajectory those won't go as far as triple the range of identical ground variants. They won't be climbing at a 45-degree angle until the engine burnout for the maximum range.

Now finally you have come round to what I have been trying to explain to you. That graph you have shared is somehow “similar” to Grad trajectory graphs. And the air launched missile trajectories are almost in line with how they should be.
I am glad we are now seeing eye to eye!
My only criticism on your graphs are the rather straight lines during missile’s descent. This can not be as pronounced as you have shown. The only way this is going to happen is, if the missile has power during descent or it is at a high enough altitude and gliding at mid-flight. As the missile is without power during descent and the approach angle to target has to be more acute in order to have more speed, it has to present a better aerodynamic cross section and decrease air resistance by descending at a sharper angle. Since there is no forward thrust as the missile is falling, air drag would naturally bring the missile to ground at a more acute angle.
First launch angle of these missiles because of powered flight, will be longer (and may even look straighter). But after apogee point the angle is always sharper. Here is a preface of a paper written on the subject covering a 122mm artillery rocket.

(PDF) Trajectory Prediction for a Typical Fin Stabilized Artillery Rocket.

PDF | This paper investigates the trajectory predict ion and dispersion for unguided fin stabilized artillery rocket in order to explain the importance... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

https://repo.pw.edu.pl/docstore/download/WUT1a684c0a76d44fe083021f34024f6249/WUT5ab510e52bb742b7a17acac390576523.pdf

 

[Nilgiri]

Now finally you have come round to what I have been trying to explain to you. That graph you have shared is somehow “similar” to Grad trajectory graphs. And the air launched missile trajectories are almost in line with how they should be.
I am glad we are now seeing eye to eye!
My only criticism on your graphs are the rather straight lines during missile’s descent. This can not be as pronounced as you have shown. The only way this is going to happen is, if the missile has power during descent or it is at a high enough altitude and gliding at mid-flight. As the missile is without power during descent and the approach angle to target has to be more acute in order to have more speed, it has to present a better aerodynamic cross section and decrease air resistance by descending at a sharper angle. Since there is no forward thrust as the missile is falling, air drag would naturally bring the missile to ground at a more acute angle.
First launch angle of these missiles because of powered flight, will be longer (and may even look straighter). But after apogee point the angle is always sharper. Here is a preface of a paper written on the subject covering a 122mm artillery rocket.
View attachment 30268

(PDF) Trajectory Prediction for a Typical Fin Stabilized Artillery Rocket.

PDF | This paper investigates the trajectory predict ion and dispersion for unguided fin stabilized artillery rocket in order to explain the importance... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

View attachment 30269

https://repo.pw.edu.pl/docstore/download/WUT1a684c0a76d44fe083021f34024f6249/WUT5ab510e52bb742b7a17acac390576523.pdf

OT a bit, but these graphs give me real nostalgia hit of earlier days when I avidly read the progress of analytical geometry under Robins and Euler and its influence on certain young lad studying in ecole militaire to be artillery officer.

Carry on

 

[TheInsider]

Now finally you have come round to what I have been trying to explain to you. That graph you have shared is somehow “similar” to Grad trajectory graphs. And the air launched missile trajectories are almost in line with how they should be.
I am glad we are now seeing eye to eye!
My only criticism on your graphs are the rather straight lines during missile’s descent. This can not be as pronounced as you have shown. The only way this is going to happen is, if the missile has power during descent or it is at a high enough altitude and gliding at mid-flight. As the missile is without power during descent and the approach angle to target has to be more acute in order to have more speed, it has to present a better aerodynamic cross section and decrease air resistance by descending at a sharper angle. Since there is no forward thrust as the missile is falling, air drag would naturally bring the missile to ground at a more acute angle.
First launch angle of these missiles because of powered flight, will be longer (and may even look straighter). But after apogee point the angle is always sharper. Here is a preface of a paper written on the subject covering a 122mm artillery rocket.
View attachment 30268

(PDF) Trajectory Prediction for a Typical Fin Stabilized Artillery Rocket.

PDF | This paper investigates the trajectory predict ion and dispersion for unguided fin stabilized artillery rocket in order to explain the importance... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

View attachment 30269

https://repo.pw.edu.pl/docstore/download/WUT1a684c0a76d44fe083021f34024f6249/WUT5ab510e52bb742b7a17acac390576523.pdf

I'm not good at paint. That should be obvious. Anyway, I didn't agree with what you said. Air launched ballistic missiles don't follow similar ballistic trajectories compared to their ground-launched variants so your GRAD vs GRAD-ER comparison is no good. That is what I'm telling from the start. Air launched ballistic trajectories are a lot different than ground-launched ones. They are distorted ballistic trajectories. As i said before if we were to apply your argument TRLG-122 should have a range of 90-100km but you will soon see that isn't the case.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm not good at paint. That should be obvious. Anyway, I didn't agree with what you said. Air launched ballistic missiles don't follow similar ballistic trajectories compared to their ground-launched variants so your GRAD vs GRAD-ER comparison is no good. That is what I'm telling from the start. Air launched ballistic trajectories are a lot different than ground-launched ones. They are distorted ballistic trajectories. As i said before if we were to apply your argument TRLG-122 should have a range of 90-100km but you will soon see that isn't the case.

I don’t understand why you are so negative in your expressions. What do you mean Grad ER comparison no good. Of course it is valid. But for a ground launched rocket. It was there to prove to you that the projectiles follow a parabolic trajectory. Grad and Grad-ER are land launched. So they are going to have different flight paths and trajectories if compared to an air launched rocket. But predominantly it still will follow a parabolic trajectory. A rocket when released from an air platform it will drop down a little bit. Then fire it’s motor to gain altitude to reach it’s apogee. Then go down following a trajectory, roughly as shown
It still follows a parabolic trajectory.

If you look at the flight path of a mdium range rocket dropped at 12 km altitude, it will follow a trajectory as shown. Flightpath is still predominantly parabolic.

My argument doesn’t say that air launched rockets will go 120km. That is a lie! In fact I was asking if any body knew! I even suggested a pro-rata guesstimating of 60+ km range.
Dont try to show yourself correct by falsely accusing me of saying stuff I haven’t said.
This argument has gone enough. And I am bored of Discussing it with you. So I will not reply any more. You are twisting the argument.