TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

Nutuk

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Still gendarme and police should be fused at some point. Why should there be 2 entities for internal matters?

We are not like the US to have local police and interstate FBI, we are one country.

Anyway, there will always opposing views on the matter. But realities don't change, we are a country suffering big from terror and need to equip our legal forces heavier than some other countries.
 

Test7

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Zafer

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With 93% urbanization rate and ever increasing mobility capabilities we do not need to have a rural police spread all over the country. It will be a little costlier to pay for more police but when indirect effects are counted on the whole it will be more efficient to fight crime with the police force and eliminate Gendarmerie altogether. However the Atak is a highland capable helicopter perhaps T629 or the Gökbey fitted with weapons can be an option for the lowlands.
 

Cypro

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I really don't understand the logistical idea behind this, at some point both Gendarmerie and Police works together on contrary to Army. Can't just police request Gendarmerie T-129 to help them, why they are splitting forces, maintenance etc. Apart from that EGM's need for a such helicopter is not urgent, why they don't wait for domestic T629? Police can use these helicopters during operations for surveillance and observation but I don't think you need missiles or 20mm gun in urban operations, unless it is for South East. If they gonna use this in Istanbul, why do they need Cirit? May be even gun is ok for supporting operations but it is overkill overall.

During 2016 events we know Police and Fetö dogs have fought, I understand the psychology behind this but I don't think anything like that could happen again then who are they going to use this against? :unsure: Instead of paying Americans and Italians for this, they could have just waited for T629 or buy more armed UAVs. I hope they transfer these to Gendarmerie or Army later on. And T129 numbers are already enough, I would put my money to T629 and Atak 2 instead.
 
T

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Using the heavily armed chopper over urban areas would bring collateral damage. I cant realize T-129 launching OMTAS or firing auto cannon with20 cal HE ammos in Istanbul. Using thermal sensors sounds reasonable but The police already had helicopters with cameras.
 

Tornadoss

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With 93% urbanization rate and ever increasing mobility capabilities we do not need to have a rural police spread all over the country. It will be a little costlier to pay for more police but when indirect effects are counted on the whole it will be more efficient to fight crime with the police force and eliminate Gendarmerie altogether. However the Atak is a highland capable helicopter perhaps T629 or the Gökbey fitted with weapons can be an option for the lowlands.
Even though we have 93% urbanization most of fighting against terrorism happening in rural areas, and mostly done by gendarmerie. It requires army training. So it's still logical to keep the structure that way.
 

Huelague

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Everyone has an opinion on the matter, which is fine cos we need to discuss from all views to have a good overview.

But let us also look at realities on the ground, take the blacksea region as example. The PKK tries to get a foothold even in the black sea region. Now the question, should the army deal with this or the police? If the police has to deal with it (my own opinion is that it should be a police case) than with what weapons?

Another thing is what we had in 2015 when PKK tried to occupy several cities, again the question, who's responsibility should this be?


For me it is clear, internal matters should be a police case, not army case. And sure when help is needed of course the army should and will help out. But the police should have the base to handle it.
We should be careful not to create another state within a State in Turkey.
 
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Nutuk

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State within a state is your concern, yes I can understand.

But let us have a look on how western media looks at it when soldiers run operation in cities, it is blatantly falsified as "occupation forces in Kurdistan".

Yes we all know the western propaganda, but why are we helping the west to create this propaganda?

Whether we like it or not nowadays media is a very effective weapon, terrorists use the media to play the victim and this is picked up by lobby groups from US to Germany. Result Turkey is embargoed from all sides.


In certain areas we have to give the right picture, inside Turkey it should be police running all operations with all legal procedures attached to it. Use the army fully outside Turkey to smash the terrorists, this adds to a strong picture of Turkey.
 

what

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Those who do no want police to have the firepower want Turkey to be victimized by the global elites through every kind of undemocratic means. Those asking for check and balance in governance are asking for monopoly in enforcing power. They are asking for what suits the global elites.

Yawn, do you guys ever have any other argument but with us or against us?

Can you imagine how it looks like for the outside world if we use war machines and rockets in a city?
We already had that situation once and we know who's fault that was. It's not a normal scenario, it was man made or government made if you like.
 

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I stated it multiple times, these helicopters in police hands are because of the lessons learned in July '16. There is no police force in the world that operates dedicated attack helicopters but Turkey. Turkey is a first in the world and even attack helicopters for its paramilitary force is quite unique or also a first. This diversification of heavy firepower is not because of some cumbersome bureaucracy that would prevent one state agency from making use of it by lending it from another agency, but IMO because of the coup.

We have even witnessed that the forestry service is operating the TB2. I wouldn't be surprised if these serve a secondary (or covert primary) role in suppressing a military coup, should one happen.

The stated reasons by others that these ATAKs in police hands will be used against PKK is laughable. The TSK is more than capable to handle that and doesn't need another agency actively involved in its rotary wing actions.

Other roles I can ascribe to these police ATAKs are armed escort for high value people during high threat situations, escort of nuclear fuel transports in the future and rapid reaction force against attacks on high value sites such as nuclear power plants.
haha you think if military goes against Police, these helicopters will have a chance to live? against jets also all other stuff? no way... its purely against PKK and Gendarma.. sometimes police gets into ambush, they need protection when they move and so on...
 

Mis_TR_Like

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The police having T129s makes sense, the reason has to do with the Turkish military being structured into an offensive force rather than a defensive one.

Previously we needed the army to help with operations in the southeast. Now the Jandarma is getting better equipped to handle it.

So it will be like the following:
  1. Military: for operations outside of Turkey, an increasing emphasis on force-on-force capabilities. Needs T129 for providing CAS against irregular and conventional forces.
  2. Jandarma: for rural operations, focusing mainly on the southeast region, will contain and eliminate PKK within Turkey. Needs T129 for hunting PKK terorists in mountains in the southeast.
  3. Police: for urban operations or for operations where the Jandarma has no presence. Will specialise in dealing with up and coming threats which terrorists will use to instill fear and instability. Including improvised drone swarms and new IED and VBEID tactics. Needs T129 to quickly and adequately deal with new urban terror threats.
One of the reasons why Jandarma and the police are getting T129s is because the military wants the T629 and the heavy 10-12 ton attack helicopter (ATAK 2). The Turkish military doesn't need any more T129s. So T129s are instead being prioritized for other organizations.

I'm not entirely sure how much the military had planned to buy, but my guess is that some of the one's given to the police and Jandarma were initially supposed to be bought by the military. But as the T629 and ATAK 2 projects were initiated, the additional purchases were cancelled.
 

Test7

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Gentlemens, do not prevent other members from obtaining information with off topic posts.
 

Tornadoss

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Yawn all you like, we know who is with Turkey and who is against, no matter what.
We won't care what outsiders want to think when it comes to our security.
We know how other nations freaked out at the slightest risk of loss of control.
The world is not the world as we knew it just a couple of years ago, better get used to it.

Well, the reason for the Hendek operation was goverment's turning a blind eye to what happening in that region during the "peace process". If the movement of explosives, weapons, and terrorists to the area is observed, there will be no such problem in the future.

And you guys keep talking how we need palaces, luxurious cars, dozens of planes for prestige, and yet you don't care how it's seen from outside when you bomb your own cities with heavy weapons.
 
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what

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Well, the reason for the Hendek operation was goverment's turn a blind eye to what happening in that region during the "peace process". If the movement of explosives, weapons, and terrorists to the area is observed, there will be no such problem in the future.

And you guys keep talking how we need palaces, luxurious cars, dozens of planes for prestige, and yet you don't care how it's seen from outside when you bomb your own cities with heavy weapons.

People arguing for the usage of Atack Helicopters in our own cities are probably the best PR department for the PKK abroad.
 

KKF 2.0

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My family lives in a rural region in Eastern Anatolia. Overall it's a safe region but in case of emergency like an accident, shooting, medical urgency we almost always call the jandarma first.

I want them to be fully equipped with everything our defense sector is offering.

Lately, the police is getting more involved in our lives due the growth in settlements and population, still, the region is not classified as an urban area and both security agencies, police and jandarma, have to cooperate. I have no issue in providing the police force Atak helis in such an environment.

Having said that, the police shouldn't get military grade equipment in major cities and other urban areas like İstanbul, Ankara or İzmir.

It would be a waste of money and, frankly, there's no political justification for such a decision that is gonna change the whole dynamics of our security architecture.
 

Inspector_spacetime

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State within a state is your concern, yes I can understand.

But let us have a look on how western media looks at it when soldiers run operation in cities, it is blatantly falsified as "occupation forces in Kurdistan".

Yes we all know the western propaganda, but why are we helping the west to create this propaganda?

Whether we like it or not nowadays media is a very effective weapon, terrorists use the media to play the victim and this is picked up by lobby groups from US to Germany. Result Turkey is embargoed from all sides.


In certain areas we have to give the right picture, inside Turkey it should be police running all operations with all legal procedures attached to it. Use the army fully outside Turkey to smash the terrorists, this adds to a strong picture of Turkey.
The propaganda in the west is the result of the government policies, and not the other way around. What I mean with this is, the "news" they report is a reaction and a product of the governments policies. The government is not influenced by their media, but it is the media that is influenced by the government. This is called "manufactering consent". In other words if their objective is to embargo or sanction, they will always find some reason to do so, whether this reason is based off of fact or not is not relevent or important to them. Politics rely on internal reports, maybe media as well a little to which they base their decisions and policies on. But in general the media's puropse is to "inform" the public rather than themselves. Bad things as well as good things happen always and everywhere regarding what the topic is, who it is or where in the world it is. Media picks and choose only the good or only the bad things on certain topics because they want to convey a certain message or manipulate the public into a certain opinion.

Yes, the western "news" make it look like our soldiers are occupation forces, but this is not due to the actions of Turkish security forces. This is a conscience choice they are making because their objective is not about informing the people with facts, but rather fool the people into believing what the government wishes for people to believe. Heavy fighting in urban area's, sure the news outlets in the west make use of it to put a negative spin on Turkey as a country. But even if there were no heavy fighting in urban area's, they would still find something to use against Turkey (and are doing it), because that is their objective. They make a mosquito into an elephant if you will (Dutch proverb), and use that in such a fashion in however it fills their needs. On the other hand, they choose the ignore all the atroticies that the pkk and ypg are conducting every day, because it is not in their interests to do so. "we are supporting ypg because they are fighting isis" is the same narrative as "WMD's in Iraq", it serves the same purpose in the sense that it convinces everyday people to support their actions and avoid public backlash. They are saying "Kurds" and not "ypg", in other words they are not differentiating between a terrorist organisation and Kurds in general (they did the same with Muslims and isis as well). This serves to give a certain perception that serves their interest (algi yonetiyorlar). I am not saying that our soldiers and citizens should get free rain and not mind their actions, because their actions can be used against us in propaganda because these actions can make their perception management more effective. (mesela bir Kuzey Irakli bir turist Trabzonda Kurt (IKBY) bagragi acip bir hatira fotorafi cektirmek istemisti, bunada bir kac kisi tepki gostermisti ve bu sosyal medyaya dusmustu. Ve bu ne yazik ki pkk icin cok iyi bir propaganda malzemesi olmustu, sadece video'daki olan bitenler degil, altina vatandaslarimiz tarafindan yazilmis yorumlarda propaganda malzemesi olabiliyor. Buda pkk'nin isine yariyor, sozde Turkiye ve Turkler zulm ediyor, Kurt kulturunden ve Kurlerden hazm edemiyorlar algisi ureterek insanlari kandirmaya calisyorlar. Boyle seyler yapip terrorisme prim vermememiz lazim, yani hepimize vatandas ve insan olarak bir sorumluluk dusuyor. Her attigimiz adimda, bu disariya nasil yansir diye sorgulayip atmamiz lazim).

It is not a coincidence that Can Dundar is in Germany. Or that feto and pkk are very active in Europe and USA. Or that Enes Kanter is actively propagandasizing heavily with anti-Turkey rhetoric in US. Enes is unfortunately very good at this and he can be very subtle. Only those that follow Turkish politics and know about feto can read through his lies.

Eskidende Turkiye'yi pkk konusunda kotulerlerdi, eski derken 20, 30 sene oncede bunu yaparlardi, yeni birsey degil. Eskiden hatirliyorum (dogru hatirliyorsam tabi, cunku daha cocuk yada ergen dim), ama Turkiyede pkk tarafinda bir koy basilmisti ve katliam yapilmisti, ama Belcika televizyonu sanki Turk askerleri yapmis gibi gosteriyordu. (Ben Hollanda'da dogdum ve buyudum, ama Belcika'nin Flemenk bolgesi'de Hollanda ile ayni dili konosuyor). Turkiye'yi her konuda bilinc alti olsun, olmasin kotuluyorlar. Hic alakasi olmayan gezi programlari, yada yemek programlarinda bile bazen cok ince sekilde Turkiye'yi kotuluyorlar. Bunu diger ulkeler icinde yapiyorlar (mesela Rusya, Thailand, diger AB ve NATO ulkeleri, vesayre gibi), ama ben bu ulkeler hakkinda (ic ve dis siyasetleri olsun) fazla bilmedigim icin diger ulkeler kotulendigi zaman ben farkina varmiyorum, buda bilmedigim icin bilinc altima yerlesiyor. Boylece damla damla gol oluyor.

Bu Turkiye'dede oluyor (tum dunya'da oluyor), mesela sozcu ve yeni safak gazeteleri, ayni olayda gece gunduz gibi degisiklik gosteriyor, ve her haberlerinde kendi yorumlarini ekliyorlar, neden? Cunku bu iki gazete'de degisik politik parti/ideoloji'yi destekliyor. Bu iki gazete'de (objektif haber yapiyoruz diye bizleri kandiriyor, ama uygulamada subjektif haber yapiyor, ve bundan dolayi ulkemiz kutuplasiyor. Bize dusen objektif ve tarafsiz kaynaklardan heberleri okumak (oda fazla yok malesef, ama objektif olmaya calisanlar var), ve onun yani sira her okudugumuz sey'i dogru olup olmadigini arastirmak.
 
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Ryder

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People arguing for the usage of Atack Helicopters in our own cities are probably the best PR department for the PKK abroad.

As if with we have any pr to begin with. Whatever we do will always be demonised for it anyway.

Funny how users on this forum care so much about what non turks think of us.

While in reality our ancestors drank from the skulls of their vanquished enemies.
 

Saithan

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As if with we have any pr to begin with. Whatever we do will always be demonised for it anyway.

Funny how users on this forum care so much about what non turks think of us.

While in reality our ancestors drank from the skulls of their vanquished enemies.

There is a clear distinction between being a pleaser and wanting proper governance. I am not sure you are able to distinguish between those two.

Don’t worry though this certainly goes for many Pro RTE ppl too. No longer AKP as that party most likely can’t exist on same scale without RTE.

I do agree with @Webslave that there is a shift in TSK and EGM. Gendarmerie is a very important force in Turkey and I want to keep it that way. Historically too.

I don’t agree that the police needs Atak, especially not after passing that law where they can lend to each other.
 

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