TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[TheInsider]

T-129 is a good light attack helicopter. But it has it’s own shortcomings;
1. The gun ammo is fed from outside.
2. There is hardly any armour protection for the pilots.
3. Balance of the helicopter was off due to front FLIR position. It was remedied with approximately 130kg of ballast weight in tail.
4. Only in the latest “blocks” have they improved the avionics and alike. But more is possible.
5. No natural space to place a millimetre radar.
6. Limited weapons capacity

T-629 on the other hand being 1000kg heavier, has advantages such as;
1. Gattling Gun’s ammo is enclosed within. Room to double quantity.
2. Proper armour for pilots and cabin avionics.
3. No ballast weight in tail. More usable weight.
4. Better avionics and electronics.
5. Mildar millimetric radar(best in it’s class with 27 km range)
6. More weapons carrying capacity.

In the shortcomings section, 2,3, and 4 are completely wrong.

 

[Spook]

İmpossible
All sorts of other options are more attractive.

AW249 is the most attractive. Bell is offering also AH-1Z. Boeing offering AH-64. AH-1Z can do majority of what AH-64 can do with less cost. But for both helicopters, industrial cooperation opportunities would be a lot less compared to Leonardo.

PZL Swidnik, biggest Polish helicopter manufacturer is owned by Leonardo. Italy offered AW249 to Poland since 2016. Both countries did sign letter of intent in 2018. Yet Poland still haven't the joined the program. At this point AW249 might be in late design, prototype phase. Doesn't mean Poland is late to join program. But I think there is some space for us to give offers as the acquisition still unclear.

We can give very attractive counter-offer(s). We can offer them partnership for the attack helicopters starting starting from design phase. Offer tech transfer, license production not just the helicopter but for many on-board electronics, systems. Create no problems for them when they want to integrate foreign systems. Our helicopters are being developed with feedback from actual battlefield compared to AW249. Also our systems will be able to interact with TB2 much better. Poland TB2 deal is not small enough for them to discard this. Polish pilots can get better training from our attack helicopter pilots too. Turks-Polish have a history of industrial cooperation. Latest was the first prototype of T-70 under utility helicopter program was built by PZL Mielec of Poland. It's not a wild guess.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

AW249 is the most attractive. Bell is offering also AH-1Z. Boeing offering AH-64. AH-1Z can do majority of what AH-64 can do with less cost. But for both helicopters, industrial cooperation opportunities would be a lot less compared to Leonardo.

PZL Swidnik, biggest Polish helicopter manufacturer is owned by Leonardo. Italy offered AW249 to Poland since 2016. Both countries did sign letter of intent in 2018. Yet Poland still haven't the joined the program. At this point AW249 might be in late design, prototype phase. Doesn't mean Poland is late to join program. But I think there is some space for us to give offers as the acquisition still unclear.

We can give very attractive counter-offer(s). We can offer them partnership for the attack helicopters starting starting from design phase. Offer tech transfer, license production not just the helicopter but for many on-board electronics, systems. Create no problems for them when they want to integrate foreign systems. Our helicopters are being developed with feedback from actual battlefield compared to AW249. Also our systems will be able to interact with TB2 much better. Poland TB2 deal is not small enough for them to discard this. Polish pilots can get better training from our attack helicopter pilots too. Turks-Polish have a history of industrial cooperation. Latest was the first prototype of T-70 under utility helicopter program was built by PZL Mielec of Poland. It's not a wild guess.

We can even make all the designs first and then incorporate them into the partnership and deliver all the technology for $1 million, so we will definitely win the tender. The real question is not what we can do, why we should do it? Are we looking for a customer, a swindler to make us cold?

Why should I give so much for free stuf to a country where we have not had industrial cooperation until now? We even give limited technology to Ukraine in exchange for who knows what technologies.

 

[Spook]

We can even make all the designs first and then incorporate them into the partnership and deliver all the technology for $1 million, so we will definitely win the tender. The real question is not what we can do, why we should do it? Are we looking for a customer, a swindler to make us cold?

Why should I give so much for free stuf to a country where we have not had industrial cooperation until now? We even give limited technology to Ukraine in exchange for who knows what technologies.

Both countries have common interests on issues regarding Russia, Ukraine and Germany. This is about building partnership/friendship that benefits both countries that should had long been realized. We can develop technologies in many areas together. Take Ukraine for example, how much relations improved. We are going to work with Ukrainians in many areas. Poland is not a country that can offer nothing. We can work with them to market our products to other European countries. They have experienced engineers that we can work together. Unlike Ukraine, it has a rising economy. Their military modernization programs include systems we can offer. Today they buy TB2, maybe some other day Hisar, Milgem, Oliver Hazar Perry modernization etc. What happened with Ukraine? They were laughing if you said Ukraine would buy these from us before.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Both countries have common interests on issues regarding Russia, Ukraine and Germany. This is about building partnership/friendship that benefits both countries that should had long been realized. We can develop technologies in many areas together. Take Ukraine for example, how much relations improved. We are going to work with Ukrainians in many areas. Poland is not a country that can offer nothing. We can work with them to market our products to other European countries. They have experienced engineers that we can work together. Unlike Ukraine, it has a rising economy. Their military modernization programs include systems we can offer. Today they buy TB2, maybe some other day Hisar, Milgem, Oliver Hazar Perry modernization etc. What happened with Ukraine? They were laughing if you said Ukraine would buy these from us before.

Turkish Companies already direct projects with all the countries in the westernmost part of Europe, the reason why they do not have projects or sales with Eastern European countries is that there is no such industry or need. And you don't need Poland to sell to them. You have thousands of engineers you can recruit from Germany and the Netherlands, which Poland is trying to sidetrack. Ukraine has qualified personnel in many branches of industry, Poland has none of them. We are not a soup kitchen.

 

[Yasar_TR]

In the shortcomings section, 2,3, and 4 are completely wrong.

Quote:
The T129 was nose-heavy; to resolve this, 137 kg was added to the tail, causing the total weight to exceed the specified requirement. The higher weight may decrease the T129's service ceiling, which is detrimental for operating under hot and high conditions, like those found in Southeastern Anatolia.
Unquote
Quote:
It is a lightweight attack helicopter, hence it carries less armor than its counterparts. Yet its rotor blades withstand hits from 30 mm rounds
Unquote.

Due to weight restriction, the armour and ballistic protection of T129 is somehow at a compromised level. Engine and some vital equipment are protected. But cockpit needs more armour. T929 will have a much better ballistic protection than T129.
Having said that; due to it’s size and design geometry, the T129 is a stealthy helicopter. Has perfect manoeuvrability. Therefore has very good protection against outside threats.
A lot of upgrades have been implemented to the T129 with respect to avionics like new IFF systems, new electronic warfare systems etc. But due to weight restrictions, a lot of upgrades wiil have to wait for T929 and/or T629. This is a well known fact.
It is easy to say “totally wrong” ! Can you support this with source? So that if, what I know is wrong, I may correct myself!

 

[Spook]

Turkish Companies already direct projects with all the countries in the westernmost part of Europe, the reason why they do not have projects or sales with Eastern European countries is that there is no such industry or need. And you don't need Poland to sell to them. You have thousands of engineers you can recruit from Germany and the Netherlands, which Poland is trying to sidetrack. Ukraine has qualified personnel in many branches of industry, Poland has none of them. We are not a soup kitchen.

What are the projects we have with western European countries? Tell me one noticeable, major platform we sold to them. Building parts is not same as selling a whole systems. Like TB2 being the best in its class yet these countries would not buy it because it is a Turkish made system. Better to develop export system under a partnership and sell our products under them. At least we would get some of that market share in that region. Current state of Ukraine is very difficult. They don't have money to fund projects unlike Poland. It's a better partner for many projects than Ukraine. Did you know that Poland had a 'Narew' SHORAD air defense system tender. Still ongoing since like 2016. Aselsan offered solution under a co-development project with PGZ.

 

[TheInsider]

Quote:
The T129 was nose-heavy; to resolve this, 137 kg was added to the tail, causing the total weight to exceed the specified requirement. The higher weight may decrease the T129's service ceiling, which is detrimental for operating under hot and high conditions, like those found in Southeastern Anatolia.
Unquote
Quote:
It is a lightweight attack helicopter, hence it carries less armor than its counterparts. Yet its rotor blades withstand hits from 30 mm rounds
Unquote.

Due to weight restriction, the armour and ballistic protection of T129 is somehow at a compromised level. Engine and some vital equipment are protected. But cockpit needs more armour. T929 will have a much better ballistic protection than T129.
Having said that; due to it’s size and design geometry, the T129 is a stealthy helicopter. Has perfect manoeuvrability. Therefore has very good protection against outside threats.
A lot of upgrades have been implemented to the T129 with respect to avionics like new IFF systems, new electronic warfare systems etc. But due to weight restrictions, a lot of upgrades wiil have to wait for T929 and/or T629. This is a well known fact.
It is easy to say “totally wrong” ! Can you support this with source? So that if, what I know is wrong, I may correct myself!

Completely wrong.

T-129 is a light attack helicopter it provides protection against 12.7mm .50 cal rounds. People expect AH-64 level protection from a light attack helicopter.

T-129 is not nose-heavy. It is true that in the prototype phase counterweights were used to counter the extra weight of Aselflir-300 but later design changes were made accordingly. The real issue was the vibration. Most of the work revolved around isolating vibration from the FLIR when it comes to the nose section of the chopper. Atak is a very agile helicopter there is no way you can be that agile with shitty solutions like counterweights.

There were no problems with the avionics even from the start. Aselsan avionics/glass cockpit worked like a charm. You are probably talking about goodies like the RF jammer. Those are always planned to be added as project progresses.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

What are the projects we have with western European countries? Tell me one noticeable, major platform we sold to them. Building parts is not same as selling a whole systems. Like TB2 being the best in its class yet these countries would not buy it because it is a Turkish made system. Better to develop export system under a partnership and sell our products under them. At least we would get some of that market share in that region. Current state of Ukraine is very difficult. They don't have money to fund projects unlike Poland. It's a better partner for many projects than Ukraine. Did you know that Poland had a 'Narew' SHORAD air defense system tender. Still ongoing since like 2016. Aselsan offered solution under a co-development project with PGZ.

View attachment 21911

Yes, I know very well and as I said, Camm missiles will be much more attractive, they chose to go there because Aselsan was not capable of doing any of the things in the video in 2016. They don't want joint development, they want more technology for less money, that's all.

 

[yusuf]

two infrared countermeasure system

 

[Kartal1]

ANADOLU ANKASI 2021: Special Forces Command S-70A BlackHawk helicopter - ASELSAN's TCAS system is exhibited in the static field in the exercise.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1399283860093952001

 

[Anmdt]

The T129 was nose-heavy; to resolve this, 137 kg was added to the tail, causing the total weight to exceed the specified requirement. The higher weight may decrease the T129's service ceiling, which is detrimental for operating under hot and high conditions, like those found in Southeastern Anatolia.

I remember it was for the EDH variant, as a temporary solution to save the day and get those operational, and in the Phase I variant the issues have been fixed with refreshing some electronics and parts, Phase I also has other improvements made regarding to the some requirements set by army, which later was softened so that EDH variant can be approved and commissioned.

 

[Anmdt]

two infrared countermeasure system View attachment 21986

nice catch of DIRCM.

 

[Kaptaan]

Southeastern Anatolia

These are exact condition prevailing in Balochistan. A plateau with mean 5,000 feet altitude with areas on the borderlands touching 10,000 feet. Hot, dry in summer and snow, freezing in winter. Pakistan badly needs helicopter gunships to clean out the menace of BLA and TTP terrorists. I just hope to god USA gives the required greenlight for the sale of ATAKs. Pakistan is losing young soldiers everyday because of insufficent heli support.

 

[Kartal1]

These are exact condition prevailing in Balochistan. A plateau with mean 5,000 feet altitude with areas on the borderlands touching 10,000 feet. Hot, dry in summer and snow, freezing in winter. Pakistan badly needs helicopter gunships to clean out the menace of BLA and TTP terrorists. I just hope to god USA gives the required greenlight for the sale of ATAKs. Pakistan is losing young soldiers everyday because of insufficent heli support.

We have many attack helicopters in inventory and I am wondering if it is possible to lease T-129 Atak helicopters to Pakistan as a stop gap and update the offer with T-629 helicopters.

 

[Test7]

We have many attack helicopters in inventory and I am wondering if it is possible to lease T-129 Atak helicopters to Pakistan as a stop gap and update the offer with T-629 helicopters.

It does not seem possible for a product that does not have an export license to be leased without permission due to ITAR.

 

[Combat-Master]

Completely wrong.

T-129 is a light attack helicopter it provides protection against 12.7mm .50 cal rounds. People expect AH-64 level protection from a light attack helicopter.

T-129 is not nose-heavy. It is true that in the prototype phase counterweights were used to counter the extra weight of Aselflir-300 but later design changes were made accordingly. The real issue was the vibration. Most of the work revolved around isolating vibration from the FLIR when it comes to the nose section of the chopper. Atak is a very agile helicopter there is no way you can be that agile with shitty solutions like counterweights.

There were no problems with the avionics even from the start. Aselsan avionics/glass cockpit worked like a charm. You are probably talking about goodies like the RF jammer. Those are always planned to be added as project progresses.

Are you sure about the counterweights?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are you sure about the counterweights?
View attachment 21988
View attachment 21989

That is 93 kg in actual weight with a further 23 kg in electronics not taking in to account the weight of the holding brackets. T-129 number 46 in production. If that isn’t nose heavy, what is?
Crude looking counter weights though!

ASELFLIR-300T Electro-Optical Reconnaissance

ASELFLIR-300T Electro-Optical Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Targeting System ASELFLIR-300T is a high performance electro-optical reconnaissance, surveillance and targeting system designed for

en.defenceturk.net

 

[Zafer]

These are exact condition prevailing in Balochistan. A plateau with mean 5,000 feet altitude with areas on the borderlands touching 10,000 feet. Hot, dry in summer and snow, freezing in winter. Pakistan badly needs helicopter gunships to clean out the menace of BLA and TTP terrorists. I just hope to god USA gives the required greenlight for the sale of ATAKs. Pakistan is losing young soldiers everyday because of insufficent heli support.

Drones, how about drones to the rescue, why not?

 

[Combat-Master]

That is 93 kg in actual weight with a further 23 kg in electronics not taking in to account the weight of the holding brackets. T-129 number 46 in production. If that isn’t nose heavy, what is?
Crude looking counter weights though!

ASELFLIR-300T Electro-Optical Reconnaissance

ASELFLIR-300T Electro-Optical Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Targeting System ASELFLIR-300T is a high performance electro-optical reconnaissance, surveillance and targeting system designed for

en.defenceturk.net

A discussion point could be that such issue was alleviated with phase 2 of the T-129 programme, where the added electronics have been stowed forward and below in an additional compartment. However, this may not be the case either - we simply do not know.