TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Sanders]

No, it doesn't belong to T-629

Is there any news about that? It looks like a leak.
If you look at the design details and lines, you will see that it is matching with T-629, not Attack II.

 

[Radonsider]

Those are literally from the Atak-2 production line

Is there any news about that? It looks like a leak.
If you look at the design details and lines, you will see that it is matching with T-629, not Attack II.

 

[Sanders]

Those are literally from the Atak-2 production line

I understand, but I didn't see any source about that. If there is, ı would really appreciate it.

 

[Radonsider]

I understand, but I didn't see any source about that. If there is, ı would really appreciate it.

Diyanet's video from TUSAŞ visit

 

[Tornadoss]

It isn't right approach to look at a low resolution image and downgrade years of work in two sentences. Military products aren't considered and evaluated like models in beauty contests. The design processes of these machines are shaped according to the demands of Turkish armed force. End user lists the requirements and shares their experience. Most cockpits in many programs are even designed with wishes of our soldiers. If a design change had to be made, there was a technical reason for it or there was an additional need coming from force. It should be known that if another design will emerge during serial production phase, this will also be due to need that will arise as a result of an evaluation/test process.

I'm assuming that some of you don't dare to claim that Turkiye's largest aerospace deaign/engineering company can't think what members who have no experience in these matters on Twitter/forums think. It should be known that noone should go so far as to claim that effect of the gun smoke on Flir is unknown by Tusaş but discussed only by twitter guys. In this regard, I recommend that you should stay at certain levels in your comments and maintain your modesty instead of pushing the criticizing limits with conspiracy theories for strategic projects.

When T129 first appeared, some "smarty" said many things as well. FLIR is too bulky, obscures gunner's vision or the shooting accuracy is reduced due to the location of gatling gun, balance this or that...etc but Atak solution that was developed in line with our Army's requirements by Atak team was accepted and its mass production is still continuing and it is sold multiple countries abroad as well.

When Milgem showed up, someone were making a fuss as if ship had a balance problem. If i wrote what some "knowledgeble" people at the beginning of some programs was talking about in this field, it would probably be a novel today and some of you would be shocked as well but nowadays no one mention what they claimed at past so everyone should pay attention to the comments they write.

As you said military products aren't considered and evaluated like models in beauty contests, so it shouldn't bother you guys if somebody think it's ugly. Beauty is a personal taste and it's relative.

This is a forum where people can express their opinion. If it's not the case and a bandwagon to praise everything our companies do, what is the point of the having a forum. People here talking about the product based on the available data we have, some of you guys arguing how we should think and what we should say or not. When we have a clearer photo, we can discuss, maybe admit we were wrong and so. It's not dowplaying the effort of engineers, but engineers are also human and can make mistake, otherwise F-35 would have been a perfect aircraft, with companies that are building aircraft for many years and astronomical budget.

I guess neither T-129 nor Milgem are perfect designs which might have their flaws. But our comments here doesn't make them less useful.

 

[godel44]

By the way, this discussion about the aesthetics of the incomplete Atak-2 prototype also makes it easy to see why Ismail Demir is so cautious about the first flight of TF-X. As a culture, we are very hard on our own work and prone to second-guessing. Devrim cars are one poignant example. Imagine something went wrong in the first flight of TF-X and it crashed. Even defense industry enthusiasts would rush to harshly criticize the project. Not to mention all the politically motivated people who will want to say AKP gave this task to incompetent people and we should just accept American demands and buy F-35s. For the survival of these projects, it's best to keep the current trend of being cautious and only making successful tests public. At least until the public learns to accept occasional failures that are inevitable.

 

[Sanders]

It isn't right approach to look at a low resolution image and downgrade years of work in two sentences. Military products aren't considered and evaluated like models in beauty contests by Armed Forces. The design processes of these machines are shaped according to the demands of Turkish armed force. End user lists the requirements and shares their experience. Most cockpits in many programs are even designed with wishes of our soldiers. If a design change had to be made, there was a technical reason for it or there was an additional need coming from force. It should be known that if another design will emerge during serial production phase, this will also be due to need that will arise as a result of an evaluation/test process.

I'm assuming that some of you won't claim that Turkiye's largest aerospace deaign/engineering company couldn't think what members who have no experience in these matters on Twitter/Forums think. It should be known that noone should go so far as to claim that effect of the gun smoke on Flir is unknown by Tusaş but discussed/revealed by twitter guys. In this regard, I recommend that you should stay at certain levels in your comments and maintain your modesty instead of pushing the criticizim limits with conspiracy theories for strategic projects.

When T129 first appeared, some "smarty" said many things as well. FLIR is too bulky, obscures gunner's vision, poor guy's obsolete solution, or shooting accuracy is reduced due to the location of gatling gun, balance this or that...etc but Atak solution that was developed in line with our Army's requirements by Atak team was accepted and its mass production is still continuing and it is sold multiple countries abroad as well.

When Milgem introduced, someone were making a fuss as if ship had a balance problem. If i wrote what some people at the beginning of some programs was talking in this field, it would probably be a novel today and some of you would be shocked as well but nowadays no one mention what they claimed at past so everyone should pay attention to the comments they write.

Of course. But we are just arguing with the data we have so far which is the point of forums.
It should not be forgotten that engineers are also human just like us and they can make mistakes too.
Otherwise, the Hürkuş 2 project wouldn't be carried out right now.
Or we can look at the UK's AFV project.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

As you said military products aren't considered and evaluated like models in beauty contests, so it shouldn't bother you guys if somebody think it's ugly. Beauty is a personal taste and it's relative.

This is a forum where people can express their opinion. If it's not the case and a bandwagon to praise everything our companies do, what is the point of the having a forum. People here talking about the product based on the available data we have, some of you guys arguing how we should think and what we should say or not. When we have a clearer photo, we can discuss, maybe admit we were wrong and so. It's not dowplaying the effort of engineers, but engineers are also human and can make mistake, otherwise F-35 would have been a perfect aircraft, with companies that are building aircraft for many years and astronomical budget.

I guess neither T-129 nor Milgem are perfect designs which might have their flaws. But our comments here doesn't make them less useful.

Whether you find it ugly or beautiful is not our issue here. Beauty is a relative and you can develop any emotion you want according to your aesthetic perception. We just express our views about it and go on.

but in order to make a technical analysis on a subject, you need to have in-depth knowledge of that subject or you need to have a technical background. Let alone being technically equipped, you dont even have a detailed and clear image that an "expert" can analyze. Don't tell me what a forum is next time ok?. You are talking about aesthetics of the nose part for example, how do you know what is in it? Do you have any information about why such a change had to be made from initial concept, but we do not? Or do you have a detailed image that you can see from different angles so that you can come to a conclusion about Flir that will be affected by gun smoke? What about sight angle of pilots ? Those are the matters that was repeatedly talked about Atak-2 here.

What is "They rushed as an election investment and ruined the project" if not disrespecting years of effort? The purpose of this forum is to distinguish right and wrong. We don't interfere of course but we will never allow spread of disinformation, ignorance and disrespect for national projects under the name of "technical point of view".

By the way, Milgem didnt have a ballast problem, nor was the FLIR on the T129 blocking the sight. The scope of these comments is given to show the extent of those who put forward this information and "know" a lot.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Of course. But we are just arguing with the data we have so far which is the point of forums.
It should not be forgotten that engineers are also human just like us and they can make mistakes too.
Otherwise, the Hürkuş 2 project wouldn't be carried out right now.
Or we can look at the UK's AFV project.

Of course, engineers are human too but these people are all qualified in their departments and work in teams of hundreds of people to create a common synergy for each sections that they were charged. Each design line is repeatedly reviewed and tested in different test environment. The stresses that will apply to each section are calculated and then prototypes are developed and they look at how well the numerical datas they reached match the facts of prototypes. They go to re-optimization on the necessary issues and a similar process starts again but all those are made in line with requirements that was listed by customer. As a result, there is a light year difference between those who comment on keyboards and those who are in this project.

Fault finding is a matter that requires in-depth technical knowledge. You have to be an expert in that field in order to find what has escaped hundreds of engineers so what I said is only Turkish engineering processes need to be respected. There's no point playing "engineering" on a low resolution photo. There is no relationship between the Hurkus project and the development of Hurkus-2 and this issue. Hurkus-2 was developed not because Hurkus-1 was problematic.

 

[Sanchez]

There was no issue with FLIR on the T129's gunner position, as the gunner already has full FOV from the AselFlir 300 with his TopOwl/Avcı. What did have as an issue was the weight of the Aselflir. Milgem's supposed ballast issues were teething problems of a new platform and were resolved years ago.

A comparison to TF-X here is not fitting, as TF-X is a never seen before milestone. T929 however is to be TAI's swansong on helicopter department with its years of experience with T129, very close cooperation with Leonardo and T625. Thousands of manhours, brilliant engineers coming up with plans can and still create mistakes that waste time and lose millions in Turkey and abroad. It happens. There may be multiple reasons for this setup. What is certain is that for some reason, from what we can see from the photo, at this current setup, EO will have flashes when that 30mm opens up and when T929 moves forward nose tilted down, EO will interrupt the gun's FOV. This was obviously a design choice to account for something else. I just want to learn why.

As said, we will see and probably learn more when she's rolled out.

 

[Rooxbar]

Hundreds of very experienced engineers work on these things. The probability of all of them missing the obvious problem in the flir placement is 0. I think there's sth fishy with this image.

 

[Sanders]

Of course, engineers are human too but these people are all qualified in their departments and work in teams of hundreds of people to create a common synergy for each sections that they were charged. Each design line is repeatedly reviewed and tested in a computer environment. The stresses that will apply to each section are calculated and then prototypes are developed and they look at how well the numerical datas they gain match the facts of prototypes. They go to re-optimization on the necessary issues and a similar process starts again. As a result, there is a light year difference between those who comment on keyboards and those who are in this project.

Fault finding is a matter that requires in-depth technical knowledge. You have to be an expert in that field in order to find what has escaped hundreds of engineers so what I said is only Turkish engineering processes need to be respected. There's no point playing "engineering" on a low resolution photo. There is no relationship between the Hurkus project and the development of Hurkus-2 and this issue. Hurkus-2 was developed not because Hurkus-1 was problematic.

I disagree about Hürkuş. It is not ''problematic'', of course. But if Hürkuş had fully met the requirements of TURAF, the Hürkuş 2 project would not have been made.

Users tell about what they want in their products and companies carry out these projects according to these requirements, as you said.
However, it is not guaranteed that the requirements and current product always will match.
Didn't have General Dynamics, the world's 5th biggest military company, these high-skilled engineers and the most advanced software to review the data?

These projects are not holy like religion. They can be criticized. This doesn't mean disrespecting to engineer's efforts.

By the way, for the record, this is not about being ugly or beautiful for me. It is about the functionality of the platform. A lot of respected people are saying the same thing about FLIR placement like Feridun T. and Arda M., including some engineers.

You are approaching the subject in a very defensive way.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

A comparison to TF-X here is not fitting, as TF-X is a never seen before milestone. T929 however is to be TAI's swansong on helicopter department with its years of experience with T129, very close cooperation with Leonardo and T625. Thousands of manhours, brilliant engineers coming up with plans can and still create mistakes that waste time and lose millions in Turkey and abroad. It happens. There may be multiple reasons for this setup. What is certain is that for some reason, from what we can see from the photo, at this current setup, EO will have flashes when that 30mm opens up and when T929 moves forward nose tilted down, EO will interrupt the gun's FOV. This was obviously a design choice to account for something else. I just want to learn why.

As said, we will see and probably learn more when she's rolled out.

Engineering is the profession of solving problems with processes. That's why ITR, ASR, PDR, CDR, IOC and FOC are followed in all projects. that's why prototypes are developed and tested, problems are gradually found, resolved, submitted for approval and a series of problems are re-dealt with until best is reached. In front of customer, it must be seen that requirements are fully met and thrn production approval is given. Besides, If you want a platform to take heavier load, it can be bulky or if you want it to be very agile, there are many issues that you have to waive. There is no such thing as perfection so we are talking about demands all the time for all projects but (from my old experiences) to show a problem that actually doesn't exist or making fun of some projects or drawing the disaster scenarios or pumping negativity for the sake of seem knowing too much falls into a separate category. This is a seperate topic to talk.

But our issue here is different. Many people talk about project just by looking at a low-resolution photo frame without answering questions of what, why and how about Atak2. Some are politicizing project and a complete culture of lynching is being developed for projeect. It is out of the question for us to allow it in this platform because this state of debate is clearly disrespectful to Engineers and TuSaş. No one should consider himself superior in terms of knowledge and experience due to the design choices made by hundreds of engineers in line with requirements while sitting in front of the computer screen. Tusaş that not evaluating effect of the gun's gas/flash is out of the question for me in this design but Criticism of this situation will only emerge if such an issue is encountered in actual tests. It would not be a healthy criticism to come to this conclusion by looking at such a low resolution photo. If a problem occurs in trials, the eng. process I have already mentioned will be reversed and re-modification will be made of course, but we don't have any data on such an issue at present.

If we are going to talk about the effect of gun's position on Flir, it is useful to examine AH-1Z example. In this regard, it may be thought that AH1Z's gun blocks FlIR image when it fires while cruising forward but we don't know what realities are in operational terms and we dont know demands of US army as well. this helicopter is one of the most famous in the world and it was built over the experiences of the year. That's why commenting with images doesn't give healthy results.
Now imagine, if we assume that Atak-2 prototype is this image, who knows what our "wise" people would talk about.

 

[Sanchez]

Engineering is the profession of solving problems with processes. Thqt's why ITR, ASR, PDR, CDR, IOC and FOC are followed in all projects. that's why prototypes are developed and tested, problems are gradually found, resolved, submitted for approval and a series of problems are re-dealt with until best is reached. In front of customer, it must be seen that requirements are fully met and thrn production approval is given. Besides, If you want a platform to take heavier load, it can be bulky or if you want it to be very agile, there are many issues that you have to waive. There is no such thing as perfection so we are talking about demands all the time for all projects.

But our issue here is different. Many people squabble about project just by looking at a low-resolution photo frame without answering questions of what, why and how about Atak2. Some are politicizing project and a complete culture of lynching is being developed for projeect. It is out of the question for us to allow it in this platform because this state of debate is clearly disrespectful to engineers. No one should consider himself superior in terms of knowledge and experience due to the design choices made by hundreds of engineers in line with requirements while sitting in front of the computer screen. Tusaş that not evaluating effect of the gun's gas/flash is out of the question for me in this design but Criticism of this situation will only emerge if such an issue is encountered in actual tests. It would not be a healthy criticism to come to this conclusion by looking at such a low resolution photo. If a problem occurs in trials, the eng. process I have already mentioned will be reversed and re-modification will be made of course, but we don't have any data on such an issue at present.

If we are going to talk about the effect of gun's position on Flir, it is useful to examine AH-1Z example. In this regard, it may be thought that AH1Z's gun blocks FlIR image when it fires while cruising forward but we don't know what realities are in operational terms and we dont know demands of US army as well. this helicopter is one of the most famous in the world and it was built over the experiences of the year. That's why commenting with images doesn't give healthy results.
Now imagine, if we assume that Atak-2 prototype is this image, who knows what our "wise" people would talk about.

Agreed on the first two paragraphs.

As per Zulu Cobra, we know from AH-1Ws that no blinding flashes occur when gun is used and Zulus have a fairly similar arrangement. I for one never came across Zulu gun footage over the internet tho. As for gun's FOV being blocked on Zulus, it's not an issue as the gun's traverse is already set by the turret it's housed in which is again very similar to that of Whiskeys.

Again agree that talking about this at this stage means nothing and won't be worthwhile. Talks of it being rushed for elections etc. is something I disagree with heavily. Let's see what they come up with and we are bound to learn more.

 

[Zafer]

Atak 2 is expected to fly and not expected to fight just yet. Therefore comments of it being unfit for its function is biased to say the least. I fear these comments maybe followed by comments implying TUSAŞ's work is sub par and a waste of money made for political reasons as there are people who may want to dance on it.

 

[Maedhros]

I am not an expert of helicopters. But when I see the Atak-2 and AH-1Z's FLIR-cannon comparison on above, I started to search about that. And I came across with a comment from a pilot that used AH-64. He is complaining about desctructive effect of M230 on Apache helicopters because of the high recoil of that cannon. He says it would break things like the landing search light, the sighting system in the nose (TADS/PNVS) and jar loose circuit cards in the various black boxes which were only a few feet away. And He also says not heard same problems from AH-1Z users. Atak helicopters also use 20 mm three-barrel M197 cannon like AH-1Z. This guns recoil force is 5.8 kN on average. AH-64's uses M230 single-barrel 30 mm cannon and this gun is same caliber with the Atak-2's expected weapon. This guns max recoil is 3000 lbs(13.3 kN). If TUSAS planing to use Aselsan Konya's T30H on Atak-2, this gun has 13.4 kN recoil. But I want to talk about another good alternative of these guns. VENOM LR 30. AEI Systems produced this product and SARSILMAZ bought the company a year ago. This guns max recoil is only 9kN. After all of that informations, I can say that AH-1Z and Atak-2 don't faced same engineering problems. Also, the only problem isn't that cannonballs damage or obscure the FLIR. The FLIR's placement limits the gun's angle of fire too much when the helicopter is in motion. Arda Mevlütoğlu also complains about this, but I think it is wrong to make this part of the comments without a clear and detailed image.

Arda Mevlutoğlu's twit about cannon fire angle

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1648617895700643842

Comment about M230

View topic - Irrelevant Topic? Aircraft Gun Comparison • F-16.net

Military aviation forum since 2003, with high quality discussion focusing on the F-16, F-35 and F-22 jet fighters and the C-130.

www.f-16.net

M197

M-197 20mm Gatling Gun

The M-197 20mm Gatling Gun is a lightweight, highly reliable weapon capable of firing up to 1,500 shots per minute.

www.gd-ots.com

M230

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2012/armaments/Tuesday14031mcconkie.pdf

T3OH

ASELSAN Konya'dan yeni nesil elektrik tahrikli top sistemleri!

İstanbul Fuar Merkezi'nde düzenlenen SAHA EXPO 2022 fuarında ASELSAN Konya, farklı kalibrelerde elektrik tahrikli top sistemlerini sergiledi.

www.defenceturk.net

VENOM LR 30

VENOM LR 30mm Gun - AEI Systems Ltd

VENOM LR 30mm Gun is a 'Low Recoil', gas-operated, electrically primed, self-loading revolver gun, designed for mounting in a Remote Weapon Station

aei-systems.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

This seems to belong to the T629.
View attachment 56431

If memory serves, this was the mock up of an unmanned battery powered t-629 helicopter project that did not go any further than what you see in this picture.

There were 2 variants ; an unmanned electric variant as per picture above. And a conventional variant as per picture below.

 

[dBSPL]

what if tomorrow it is revealed that the helicopter has an AESA radar in the nose?

This is such a good-sounding idea that I will be disappointed if there is no radar in the nose.

 

[Nutuk]

This is such a good-sounding idea that I will be disappointed if there is no radar in the nose.

LOL ain't it?

I criticized the criticizers here with the question "what if".

Everyone has the right to criticize but why criticize things from just a photo without a knowledge of what is installed in that nose. Criticize if must but don't give empty critics without waiting for official explanations. It's like criticizing a sniper gun: "why is the barrel length 80cm, 30cm would have looked better" without even knowing the reason why a 80cm barrel is chosen.

Criticizing is good but do it with some backup knowledge, not out of empty stoma. Have a bit patience guys.

 

[dBSPL]

LOL ain't it?

I criticized the criticizers here with the question "what if".

Everyone has the right to criticize but why criticize things from just a photo without a knowledge of what is installed in that nose. Criticize if must but don't give empty critics without waiting for official explanations. It's like criticizing a sniper gun: "why is the barrel length 80cm, 30cm would have looked better" without even knowing the reason why a 80cm barrel is chosen.

Criticizing is good but do it with some backup knowledge, not out of empty stoma. Have a bit patience guys.

A massive AESA radar in the nose cone and possibliy antennas distributed throughout the helicopter, like MMU. Powerful EW, CM, long-range intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and also BLOS loitering attack systems to be developed specifically for the chopper. You have shone such a light in my head that even as I imagine it, a smile forms on my face.

If we take the average human height as a reference, the ATAK-2 will be the largest rotary wing attack platform developed by western aviation. If my eyes are not deceiving me, it is even more than 1 meter taller than the AH-64. A full flying armor is coming. Therefore, it is hard not to be excited about the systems this helicopter will carry and the new approaches it will bring to the battlefield.