TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Tuvan]

I've been brainstorming about how will manned helicopter roadmap will/could develop with the recent developments. I wanted to make an account to share it.

T-625 enters service with LHTEC engines and later with TS1400.

Navalized T-625 in development.

Maybe TS1400 military variant in development for navalized T-625 and T-629.

2024 - TS3000 development starts.

T-629 reprioritized instead of ATAK 2 for next phases of T-129 and export market. T-629 will solve inherent limits of T129.

T-925, new design resembles T-70 and meant to fulfill needs of all military branches compared to the previous design. Similarity with T-70 program will ease development and adoption. I assume it should be using western engines for the prototypes and early production until TS3000 in 2030s.

T-925 ATAK 2 prototype with TV3 engines converted into test-bed aircraft if viable. Used for R&D for next-gen ATAK and other programmes. MUM-T development, system integration/tests etc.

 

[Saithan]

No need to brainstorm just had to read this thread from beginning to end and you'd have come across all of those.

 

[BaburKhan]

We need to scale up prototype/frontier projects such as Titra Alpin, Bvlos Jackal, etc. several times larger and get muscle up unmanned rotary wing attack platforms suitable for military offensive purposes. These helicopters should be capable of carrying multiple numbers of mini loitering, swarm capable missiles/drones. I'm talking about higher lift capacity, more advanced systems, basically, many times more expensive aircrafts.

But, Electric propulsion is not essential. We already have a rotary wing engine, TS1400. It should be a platform that can accompany the T-129 with its light armor and operational range with the 3-4 ton mtow. The attack helicopter's gunner assistant pilot should have direct control access to these rotary wing unmanned attack aircraft. Today's autonomy capabilities make it possible to carry out already a large part of the mission autonomously, so pilot is just needed for final decision making, which again, AI system could give accurate decision support to operator.

In short, we need to synthesize the progress we have made in unmanned systems with conventional close air support systems.

It seems like TITRA will Upgrade the Design of Alpin unmanned Helicopter, Alpin-II should carry more Payload. It will have a greater Rotor and would be driven by a Turboshaft Engine.

TİTRA Aims For Bigger Payloads in ALPİN Rotor UAV Family | TURDEF

TİTRA has completed the ALPİN-2 Rotor UAV (RUAV) design and is planning a larger version with a 500 kg payload capacity.

turdef.com

 

[boredaf]

It seems like TITRA will Upgrade the Design of Alpin unmanned Helicopter, Alpin-II should carry more Payload. It will have a greater Rotor and would be driven by a Turboshaft Engine.

TİTRA Aims For Bigger Payloads in ALPİN Rotor UAV Family | TURDEF

TİTRA has completed the ALPİN-2 Rotor UAV (RUAV) design and is planning a larger version with a 500 kg payload capacity.

turdef.com

This would be great to have on ships to launch (or rather drop) sonobuoys, which doesn't weigh more than 20-25kgs as far as I know, if they can find a way to attach them without hindering the uav.

 

[dBSPL]

It seems like TITRA will Upgrade the Design of Alpin unmanned Helicopter, Alpin-II should carry more Payload. It will have a greater Rotor and would be driven by a Turboshaft Engine.

TİTRA Aims For Bigger Payloads in ALPİN Rotor UAV Family | TURDEF

TİTRA has completed the ALPİN-2 Rotor UAV (RUAV) design and is planning a larger version with a 500 kg payload capacity.

turdef.com

Well, 500kg(1100lbs) payload is very ambitious, the helicopter really has to grow and get much heavier if this payload range is targeted. Probably one of the most important requirements in naval rotary-wing drone will be flight endurance, keeping this payload in the air for a few hours, being able to prepare the system for flight in a very short time and and being small enough to fit in a vessel hangar is probably impossible with all electric engines. Open source specs for the Northop's MQ-8, which was tested on Bell-407 fuselage for a while, had 700lb payload cap and a maximum flight endurance of up to 12 hours. This was actually made possible by converting most of the helicopter cabin into a fuel tank.

It should also has a communication range 150-160 nautical miles, more likely SATCOM and TDL, advanced autopilot and redundant avionics, including the ability to autonomously return to the ship in the event of a connection failure. Some sort of lightweight radar, and kind of EO/IR system should also be in standard equipment. For the ASW mission, it will also require a dipping sonar breakout, as well as a sonobuoy pod, and integration of various launchers or hardpoint pylons for various weapon systems.

If what is mentioned as 500kg on Turdef news is the external payload capacity; I get the idea that TITRA's targeted unmanned helicopter could be almost the size of a T625, which makes me think that TITRA is considering utilizing the TS-1400 on the turboshaft side. It could be a pretty big and high-budget aviation program, we'll see. But if they can pull it off, they could export this system to a number of NATO navies. trivia: ORKUN-2053, which has maximum diving depth of around 350m, weighs around 270kg. And the estimated weight of the light torpedo ORKA will probably not be less than 230-240kg.

 

[Saithan]

TS1400 for naval platform right of the bat kinda sounds weird. Wouldn't it be smarter and wiser to use TS1400 for land platforms to have it mature before you toss it out to the sea and the winds out there.

I do understand the value of testing TS1400 on unmanned platforms before using it for manned platforms, but still Naval platforms seems kinda a few steps too soon.

 

[Anmdt]

Well, 500kg(1100lbs) payload is very ambitious, the helicopter really has to grow and get much heavier if this payload range is targeted. Probably one of the most important requirements in naval rotary-wing drone will be flight endurance, keeping this payload in the air for a few hours, being able to prepare the system for flight in a very short time and and being small enough to fit in a vessel hangar is probably impossible with all electric engines. Open source specs for the Northop's MQ-8, which was tested on Bell-407 fuselage for a while, had 700lb payload cap and a maximum flight endurance of up to 12 hours. This was actually made possible by converting most of the helicopter cabin into a fuel tank.

It should also has a communication range 150-160 nautical miles, more likely SATCOM and TDL, advanced autopilot and redundant avionics, including the ability to autonomously return to the ship in the event of a connection failure. Some sort of lightweight radar, and kind of EO/IR system should also be in standard equipment. For the ASW mission, it will also require a dipping sonar breakout, as well as a sonobuoy pod, and integration of various launchers or hardpoint pylons for various weapon systems.

If what is mentioned as 500kg on Turdef news is the external payload capacity; I get the idea that TITRA's targeted unmanned helicopter could be almost the size of a T625, which makes me think that TITRA is considering utilizing the TS-1400 on the turboshaft side. It could be a pretty big and high-budget aviation program, we'll see. But if they can pull it off, they could export this system to a number of NATO navies. trivia: ORKUN-2053, which has maximum diving depth of around 350m, weighs around 270kg. And the estimated weight of the light torpedo ORKA will probably not be less than 230-240kg.

Titra making a unmanned helicopter within the dimensions of T625 is technically and beyond technically impossible. Alpin itself is a licensed product / conversion project and Titra has little to none, and indifferentiable amount of knowledge on mechanical know-how of an helicopter in comparison to TAI. What i would like to see here is a drone powered by PD seriee, or PG 115 to begin with altogether with Titra's experience i am not confident on this.

What could they achieve, realistically, is a 500 kg total payload (fuel, external, sensor etc.) drone with 1 tonnes MTOW, capped.

 

[uçuyorum]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1867223051965727123

second gökbey delivery

 

[Shtr]

The first 3 ones are already ready If I recall correctly. Let's see how many will be produced until end of 2025. Some optimist experts predict around 500 Gökbey will be sold but I guess it can reach up to 1000. I hope we can reach very quickly monthly 3-4 production rate.

 

[Strong AI]

Land Forces got some new T-70

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1877260129533362254

 

[Sanchez]

Land Forces got some new T-70

Still no news about the continuation of building further hulls after 2024, right?

 

[TR_123456]

Land Forces got some new T-70

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1877260129533362254

The news is about Kirpi II,what T-70 are you talking about?

 

[Yasar_TR]

The news is about Kirpi II,what T-70 are you talking about?

Initially that is what I thought too. But he mentions acceptance of delivery of a quantity of T-70 helicopters. Just listen carefully. 30th second: “çeşitli miktarlarda T-70 genel maksat helikopteri”

 

[TR_123456]

Initially that is what I thought too. But he mentions acceptance of delivery of a quantity of T-70 helicopters. Just listen carefully. 30th second: “çeşitli miktarlarda T-70 genel maksat helikopteri”

Shouldnt that be written first or at least noted as well since the news about Kirpi is not as important as the T-70 ?
Bad journalism,as usual.

 

[Turkic]

Shouldnt that be written first or at least noted as well since the news about Kirpi is not as important as the T-70 ?
Bad journalism,as usual.

Isn't building an indigenious vehicle with an indigenious engine more important than producing a Sikorsky heli locally ? Ig they thought the way I do.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Isn't building an indigenious vehicle with an indigenious engine more important than producing a Sikorsky heli locally ? Ig they thought the way I do.

Although I respect your line of thought, I don’t agree with it.

A low powered internal combustion engined fighting vehicle with very low tech input.
vs
A helicopter that is more than 70% locally produced with state of the art local tech avionics and engines where most of it , including hot parts are locally manufactured , albeit under licence.

Thanks to such under licence production, we managed to build our TS-1400 turbo shaft engine. And our TF6000 turbofan.

I am by no means, talking down what we have achieved in Kirpi . But it is no big feat of engineering. Many companies in Turkey and around the world can produce such an engine and Kirpi like fighting vehicles.

There aren’t many countries that can manufacture a T-70 helicopter though.

T-70 production is a bit of a sore point for all Turks at the moment as the time for the license is running out and the 109 number of units that we urgently need will be short delivered by around 70. So it is important that these well delayed deliveries are realised.
Any one that is privy to this info will appreciate the urgency and the importance of any news regarding T-70 Blackhawks.

 

[TR_123456]

Isn't building an indigenious vehicle with an indigenious engine more important than producing a Sikorsky heli locally ? Ig they thought the way I do.

@Yasar_TR abi post plus,you cant compare a Kirpi to a T-70.
You can take out 20(at least) Kirpi's with a single T-70(fully weaponized).

 

[TR_123456]

@Turkic ,

For a country the size of ours we need at least 300 T-70 sized helicopters,we only have around 120 isch(dont know exactly).
The Bell's are obsolete.
At least 50 more Chinook sized Helicopters,we only 11 Chinooks and 10 or so Mil 17's(old).

So,what do you think is more important the fully indigenous Kirpi or the helicopters?
You must know we lack in air platforms.

 

[Turkic]

Although I respect your line of thought, I don’t agree with it.

A low powered internal combustion engined fighting vehicle with very low tech input.
vs
A helicopter that is more than 70% locally produced with state of the art local tech avionics and engines where most of it , including hot parts are locally manufactured , albeit under licence.

Thanks to such under licence production, we managed to build our TS-1400 turbo shaft engine. And our TF6000 turbofan.

I am by no means, talking down what we have achieved in Kirpi . But it is no big feat of engineering. Many companies in Turkey and around the world can produce such an engine and Kirpi like fighting vehicles.

There aren’t many countries that can manufacture a T-70 helicopter though.

T-70 production is a bit of a sore point for all Turks at the moment as the time for the license is running out and the 109 number of units that we urgently need will be short delivered by around 70. So it is important that these well delayed deliveries are realised.
Any one that is privy to this info will appreciate the urgency and the importance of any news regarding T-70 Blackhawks.

@Turkic ,

For a country the size of ours we need at least 300 T-70 sized helicopters,we only have around 120 isch(dont know exactly).
The Bell's are obsolete.
At least 50 more Chinook sized Helicopters,we only 11 Chinooks and 10 or so Mil 17's(old).

So,what do you think is more important the fully indigenous Kirpi or the helicopters?
You must know we lack in air platforms.

All you say is right, I must have been misspoken. I'm exhausted lately so sorry about it.. My intention was to mean which one is more important in people's thoughts. Since we had troubles with military engines which are widely spoken in media, people would care about indigenious land engines more than a heli. Think this: Can Erdoğan say "hey people, we've built a heli under license" ? He can't because we already made Gökbey, right ? People wouldn't care about it because who will tell them the difference between Gökbey and T70 or who will tell them the importance of T70 program to us. But he can come out and say "hey people, they pissed us by not giving engines to us. And now we made it on our own"

That was what I meant to say.

 

[TR_123456]

All you say is right, I must have been misspoken. I'm exhausted lately so sorry about it.. My intention was to mean which one is more important in people's thoughts. Since we had troubles with military engines which are widely spoken in media, people would care about indigenious land engines more than a heli. Think this: Can Erdoğan say "hey people, we've built a heli under license" ? He can't because we already made Gökbey, right ? People wouldn't care about it because who will tell them the difference between Gökbey and T70 or who will tell them the importance of T70 program to us. But he can come out and say "hey people, they pissed us by not giving engines to us. And now we made it on our own"

That was what I meant to say.

No problem,dont say sorry for asking,its your right as well as it is our obligation to inform you about the importance of air assets.
Just think this,the most important engine we need is the indigenous KAAN engine then the fuel cell engine for subs the helicopter engine(almost finished,certification) and for the land forces(MBT engine).
I would put them in that order.