India Coffee House

Rajendra Chola

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You have successfully made my blood run cold. George Ponnaiah has been in the news from time to time, but now I am warned to keep an eye out for the other two.

What you describe is hate speech, as egregious as that of the monkeys who claim to represent Hindus and make violent speeches and create dramatic moments, and needs legal action in concert with local police, as quickly as possible, before these trends are any further strengthened and stabilised.

You do realise, of course, that in spite of the urge to call out these actions, it is of the utmost importance for apolitical and secular-minded Hindus to retain their balance, and not to throw out the baby with the bath-water - not, in other words, condemn all Christians, everywhere in the state, or in the country, leave alone the world, for the actions of an intemperate and head-strong minority. The utmost self-discipline is needed.

And that is my fear. I do not want any social issues in my state. The so called secularism parties (no party is secular in my opinion), who represent secular hindus are silent about this. Not even one condemnation. Kerala Communists would condemn communal statements coming from the church, but the Tamil Communists will sit silent.

Party to the problem is DMKs ideology history. It's after all framed by Robert Caldwell who first said South Indians are a separate race called Dravidians. So they are a fix whether to condemn or sit silent or even support the statements by members of the Church. Every elections, they canvass for My issue is longer the parties sit on these hate, more people will turn to Hindutva. I had predicted back in 2016 era, if INC do not turn really secular, it would lose even more, forcing it to adopt less potent form of Hinduvta approach. It finally happened. INC govt in MP, Rajasthan followed exactly.what BJP follows. As a result, we wouldn't have a secular parties representative of Indians. There would be more Hindutva or slightly less Hindutva.
It would repeat in TN, if this isn't nipped in the bud.
 

Joe Shearer

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You guys, hi.

What do you think of Modi (and RSS)? Why did they come to power and when and under what conditions would they lose power?
Who'll go first?

@merzifonlu

I am at the end of a range of opinions, at the very end. It will be fairest if people who have something good to say about Modi, the BJP and the RSS speak first. If they have to read what I have to write, there will be blood on the floor.:devilish:

Let them offer you their opinions first, is what I say.
 

crixus

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You guys, hi.

What do you think of Modi (and RSS)? Why did they come to power and when and under what conditions would they lose power ?

What do you think of Modi (and RSS)?
Modi - Prime Minister of India
RSS - An organization like any other organization

Why did they come to power and when and under what conditions would they lose power ?
Modi comes to power - Because he got more then 50.5% seats in parliament
When modi will lose - When he will get less then 50.5% seats in parliament

@Joe Shearer do you agree or not ?
 
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Merzifonlu

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What do you think of Modi (and RSS)?
Modi - Prime Minister of India
RSS - An organization like any other organization

Why did they come to power and when and under what conditions would they lose power ?
Modi comes to power - Because he got more then 50.5% seats in parliament
When modi will lose - When he will get less then 50.5% seats in parliament

@Joe Shearer do you agree or not ?
Thank you for answer. I think RSS not like any other organization and Modi not like any other India PM.
 

Paro

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Thank you for answer. I think RSS not like any other organization and Modi not like any other India PM.
In India, for the last 2-3 decades a Political party called the Indian national congress played the minority card for far too long appeasing the Muslim and Christian communities in vote bank politics. The majority (Hindus) eventually got fed up, polarized together, and voted Modi in. This pissed off the left and the minority who had misused power in the past so they complain like babies all day long.

Oh btw forgot to mention, The head of the opposition i.e Indian national congress is headed by a guy called Rahul Gandhi (who is not actually related to mahatma Gandhi btw). He is kind of a very dumb lunatic and the above left and minority consider him a youth leader (though he is in his 50's). As long as he is heading the opposite side Modi will win for eternity.

And for all the crap news you hear from India, communal violence has actually gone down

This is the very dumb-down outlook I could give you.
 
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Merzifonlu

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And for all the crap news you hear from India, communal violence has actually gone down
OK, thank you for answer. I hope you are right for everyones sake.
 

Paro

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OK, thank you for answer. I hope you are right for everyones sake.
I'm a Hindutva hinduvada dosa bakth or whatever they call right winger these days.

Don't worry, @Joe Shearer will give you the total opposite version of what I just mentioned. He's just waiting in a dark corner for someone to initiate it. :cool:
 

crixus

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Thank you for answer. I think RSS not like any other organization and Modi not like any other India PM.
Why you think he is unlike other Prime Ministers ?
Why you think RSS is not like any other organization ?

Really wish to understand your perception of Modi and RSS ?
 

Nilgiri

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It was delightful - and unexpected - to see the deep interest, and almost startling to realise that there was a considerable degree of familiarity with the subject on the part of those who were asking questions. I cannot think of anything more pleasant than this discussion widening further. I am very happy to take part, subject to two important things - first, I should know about what is asked, second, my sudden spells of weakness, that drive me to seek some rest for a few hours, may please be forgiven and understood.

Turks have some similar contours going on in their politics over say the last 20 or so years...so this often spurs lot of their interest in observing and commenting w.r.t India as well (if they are so inclined/interested on the matter at large).

i.e First half "Ascendant right wing" bourne out from a large voting bloc earlier resentment + grievance build (regarding their majoritarian identity on religion and other markers)

......this politics being perceived to be quite abrasive in many minds to the founding principles (of Ataturk) and the concurrent institutional erosion.

Now the closing half (many of them say) and the look to remoulding and moving to a newer era (past 2000 - 2020)

They are a couple political cycles downstream of us you can say in the broadest simple way.

The scales, nuances and details of course greatly vary as expected.

But most (secular + republic foundation oriented) Turkish friends speak in almost word for word the same way (about their party and leader in power currently and the politics involved on the ground and higher echelons as well) that I have noticed many of their equivalents do in India. It is very uncanny...but in a way lends to that universal theme I speak of regarding these issues as they rest in the human psyche.

In fact on many occasions I have described current Indian politics and societal churn using their own local reference points for it....quite easily and succinctly.

Some like @merzifonlu obviously have been close astute observers of our region as well:


It is why I tagged those that came to my mind immediately as those I have talked with at some length on these matters (TR-politics, IN-politics and their many mutual conceptual similarities).
 

Xenon54

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Why you think he is unlike other Prime Ministers ?
Why you think RSS is not like any other organization ?

Really wish to understand your perception of Modi and RSS ?
Im far from being knowledgeable in Indian politics but the few things i saw about RSS and Modi tell these guys are far from moderate, what they propagate to youth can take a dangerous turn very quickly.

Mixing religion with politics is never a good idea, Turks made their experience with it and the country is at crossroads now, one which is not pleasant tbh.
 

Merzifonlu

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Im far from being knowledgeable in Indian politics but the few things i saw about RSS and Modi tell these guys are far from moderate, what they propagate to youth can take a dangerous turn very quickly.

Mixing religion with politics is never a good idea, Turks made their experience with it and the country is at crossroads now, one which is not pleasant tbh.
+1 Examples: Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan... You say it.
 

Nilgiri

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And that is my fear. I do not want any social issues in my state. The so called secularism parties (no party is secular in my opinion), who represent secular hindus are silent about this. Not even one condemnation. Kerala Communists would condemn communal statements coming from the church, but the Tamil Communists will sit silent.

Party to the problem is DMKs ideology history. It's after all framed by Robert Caldwell who first said South Indians are a separate race called Dravidians. So they are a fix whether to condemn or sit silent or even support the statements by members of the Church. Every elections, they canvass for My issue is longer the parties sit on these hate, more people will turn to Hindutva. I had predicted back in 2016 era, if INC do not turn really secular, it would lose even more, forcing it to adopt less potent form of Hinduvta approach. It finally happened. INC govt in MP, Rajasthan followed exactly.what BJP follows. As a result, we wouldn't have a secular parties representative of Indians. There would be more Hindutva or slightly less Hindutva.
It would repeat in TN, if this isn't nipped in the bud.

This is just looking into one state with something of a microscope (though again TONS of this apply everywhere in the world, even in the perceived most unlikely places)....but here goes.....

DMK are a reactionary hooligan loutish ideology in the end. ..you kind of have to be if you are proud of giving a name like "Stalin" to progeny.

They came after my community as part 1 (they managed to use this to take down kamaraj even)....and after they have bullied and taught us a lesson.....need further targets in subsequent parts.

Thankfully they cleaved early on so Tamils have some A vs B format to pit and extract some manner of result from (rather than a fat complete monolith resting pretty).

All kind of quotes and soundbites come to mind (mostly from my father) I can give to show just how long this crap went on since independence....the means and methods of easy route to power....by bullying the bully and becoming the new bully.

They are driven by something hateful...a particular brand of identity politics that needs large amount of wood always to continue the fire they have started and spread....rather than evaluate if its time to move to something better now.

Tamils are stuck with it now a long while....and have to find ways to hem it in and temper it.....but lot of people prefer the easy reactionary way after what you describe as "patience wearing thin".

Where all that hate + fire came from (and so easy to exploit people on it) is very complicated long story as with everything.

I for one was given quite gentrified version of it (being from the DMK-assigned perp community of the "top"....we were the bullies of the yesteryear etc etc) ....it is only later in life I got to listen to lot more perspectives....which is first step in lot of bridge building and reconciliation.

But that stuff is hard to do for lot of people (even in ad hoc way) given the trust deficits of the hate-politics inflicted on them (from the voids left by realised dereliction of core basic responsibility and rationality from previous power-groups like mine).

i.e most (of any group) want quick easy simple answers and "us vs them" blame game + scapegoat kind of stuff to set their norms on politically. Its like an army scoping out its frontiers to a maximum.

So it has progressed in the ladder as the (political ambition) needs stay the same....the hate needs the next round of targets...preferably soft and docile...but harder if needed (since political stakes are higher).

Everyone has long thought in these kind of ways in politics, what to do? The rare (non-ruffian) specimens that do not are very rare.

How many actually want to build something good and genuine...harnessing from the best of both old and new?...and all the time (especially mentally) involved with that.

This is the nature of politics, it always finds a way to harness atrophied psyche for expansion of its power and control....because everyone thinks in black and white way when it comes to power.

Give me the power and I will solve it.....if I can't solve it.....its because you didnt give me power long enough or enough of it.

People fall for that cheap trick and turn on fellow people quite easily. There is not a real thinking of the individual's realities and rights.

It is something that just exists no matter what...there will be no firm rational resolution of it (that so many of us turn to politics cudgel to do in first place).

India especially is very new experiment on it at this scale and context.
 

Nilgiri

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NEW DELHI: India has exported a little over $1 billion in arms and equipment over the last seven years and the government is getting ambitious: the target the prime minister has talked about for a while is $5 billion by 2025. It's a daunting figure but the deal with the Philippines, which has agreed to buy the Brahmos missile for coastal defence, has come as a shot in the arm.

In this conversation on The Gist, Lt. Gen. Vinod Khandare, former military adviser in the National Security Council Secretariat, argues that the five billion dollar figure would require the government, its defence production agencies, the DRDO and the private sector to work together with a sense of purpose. He acknowledges many challenges from getting government procedures and processes to work efficiently to research agencies shrinking design and development timelines.

Embassies must also galvanise their efforts to reach out to host governments and armed forces. Tune in for more in this chat with Gen. Vinod Khandare, former military adviser in the National Security Council Secretariat.


 

Joe Shearer

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What do you think of Modi (and RSS)?
Modi - Prime Minister of India
RSS - An organization like any other organization

Why did they come to power and when and under what conditions would they lose power ?
Modi comes to power - Because he got more then 50.5% seats in parliament
When modi will lose - When he will get less then 50.5% seats in parliament

@Joe Shearer do you agree or not ?
Totally disagree.
 

Rajendra Chola

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This is just looking into one state with something of a microscope (though again TONS of this apply everywhere in the world, even in the perceived most unlikely places)....but here goes.....

DMK are a reactionary hooligan loutish ideology in the end. ..you kind of have to be if you are proud of giving a name like "Stalin" to progeny.

They came after my community as part 1 (they managed to use this to take down kamaraj even)....and after they have bullied and taught us a lesson.....need further targets in subsequent parts.

Thankfully they cleaved early on so Tamils have some A vs B format to pit and extract some manner of result from (rather than a fat complete monolith resting pretty).

All kind of quotes and soundbites come to mind (mostly from my father) I can give to show just how long this crap went on since independence....the means and methods of easy route to power....by bullying the bully and becoming the new bully.

They are driven by something hateful...a particular brand of identity politics that needs large amount of wood always to continue the fire they have started and spread....rather than evaluate if its time to move to something better now.

Tamils are stuck with it now a long while....and have to find ways to hem it in and temper it.....but lot of people prefer the easy reactionary way after what you describe as "patience wearing thin".

Where all that hate + fire came from (and so easy to exploit people on it) is very complicated long story as with everything.

I for one was given quite gentrified version of it (being from the DMK-assigned perp community of the "top"....we were the bullies of the yesteryear etc etc) ....it is only later in life I got to listen to lot more perspectives....which is first step in lot of bridge building and reconciliation.

But that stuff is hard to do for lot of people (even in ad hoc way) given the trust deficits of the hate-politics inflicted on them (from the voids left by realised dereliction of core basic responsibility and rationality from previous power-groups like mine).

i.e most (of any group) want quick easy simple answers and "us vs them" blame game + scapegoat kind of stuff to set their norms on politically. Its like an army scoping out its frontiers to a maximum.

So it has progressed in the ladder as the (political ambition) needs stay the same....the hate needs the next round of targets...preferably soft and docile...but harder if needed (since political stakes are higher).

Everyone has long thought in these kind of ways in politics, what to do? The rare (non-ruffian) specimens that do not are very rare.

How many actually want to build something good and genuine...harnessing from the best of both old and new?...and all the time (especially mentally) involved with that.

This is the nature of politics, it always finds a way to harness atrophied psyche for expansion of its power and control....because everyone thinks in black and white way when it comes to power.

Give me the power and I will solve it.....if I can't solve it.....its because you didnt give me power long enough or enough of it.

People fall for that cheap trick and turn on fellow people quite easily. There is not a real thinking of the individual's realities and rights.

It is something that just exists no matter what...there will be no firm rational resolution of it (that so many of us turn to politics cudgel to do in first place).

India especially is very new experiment on it at this scale and context.

The new gen is even more brainwashed with social media and stuff. Friends I have studied with, has started openly blaming Brahmins in WhatsApp groups not even withstanding Brahmins are there in school groups, and he is used to be best friends with a few of them.

The irony is, this generation, of those who grew up in cities (excluding those who grew up in rural areas) who have never faced discrimination based on caste is resorting to hatred, which is something I can't understand.

My dad is an DMK supporter (not DK and ardent religious) has supposedly faced discrimination at the hands of Brahmins in 60's and 70's during his coll days. So his "hate" is understandable. My elder brother is an top notch student. His AI rank for GATE exam for iit admission was 96. We had a Brahmin family friend sit in our home and say if not for reservations, it would have tough to gain admissions in iit for anyone. My dad still latches on to the comments. My advice was not to view everyone in the same lens.

The problem I have with DMK is, people might disagree with me, was the first party in India to resort to hate politics aka Nazi style and unpopular opinion was the first party to use religion to divide people. Nazis blamed a vibrant and rich community as the reason for all problem Germany faced. Same in TN. The brainswashed zombies even bad-mouth UV Swaminatha iyrr and Bharathiyar just cos they are Brahmins. DMK was supposed to evolve over time. But DK hasn't. And DMK is powerless to do anything about it. Instead of bringing in all people together, this party projects hate against a religion through the Brahmin community.

The problem with this approach is, it will result in people to move towards Hindutva. Which is polarisation. The Congress party should have been the ideal counter. The popular perception is TN people do not have nationalistic ideals. But core voters of ADMK, BJP or INC are people with nationalistic appeal. But INC in TN has become a sidekick to DMK. All it cares about is winning few seats. Their vote share has gone below BJP in TN and NTK has already over grown those 2 parties. Until unless the ADMK takes charge, ground is fertile for BJP/NTK growth in TN.
 

Joe Shearer

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The new gen is even more brainwashed with social media and stuff. Friends I have studied with, has started openly blaming Brahmins in WhatsApp groups not even withstanding Brahmins are there in school groups, and he is used to be best friends with a few of them.
That is the famous throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
My daughter, to bring in a personal note, is half-Brahmin; her son is three quarters Brahmin. Nobody can be more liberal and disabused about caste than my daughter and son-in-law. On various fora, the strongest support that I get for my pro-affirmative action views is from Brahmins.
I feel that we can overestimate the opposition of Brahmins to changes in the social order; it exists, and in a particularly painful salience, but it is not universal.
The irony is, this generation, of those who grew up in cities (excluding those who grew up in rural areas) who have never faced discrimination based on caste is resorting to hatred, which is something I can't understand.
Perhaps the answer to your query lies in this:
People who have genuinely faced discrimination may have learnt to cope. Those who read about it in the abstract would react, in keeping with the nature of the acquisition, with abstracts. In other words, a wholly artificial anger based on purely theoretical constructs.
My dad is an DMK supporter (not DK and ardent religious) has supposedly faced discrimination at the hands of Brahmins in 60's and 70's during his coll days. So his "hate" is understandable. My elder brother is an top notch student. His AI rank for GATE exam for iit admission was 96.
You are an atypical family, please don't forget that. Others might not have your relaxed point of view.
We had a Brahmin family friend sit in our home and say if not for reservations, it would have tough to gain admissions in iit for anyone. My dad still latches on to the comments. My advice was not to view everyone in the same lens.
This is the kind of numskull that needs a bop on the head.
The problem I have with DMK is, people might disagree with me, was the first party in India to resort to hate politics aka Nazi style and unpopular opinion was the first party to use religion to divide people. Nazis blamed a vibrant and rich community as the reason for all problem Germany faced. Same in TN. The brainswashed zombies even bad-mouth UV Swaminatha iyrr and Bharathiyar just cos they are Brahmins. DMK was supposed to evolve over time. But DK hasn't. And DMK is powerless to do anything about it. Instead of bringing in all people together, this party projects hate against a religion through the Brahmin community.

The problem with this approach is, it will result in people to move towards Hindutva. Which is polarisation. The Congress party should have been the ideal counter. The popular perception is TN people do not have nationalistic ideals. But core voters of ADMK, BJP or INC are people with nationalistic appeal. But INC in TN has become a sidekick to DMK. All it cares about is winning few seats. Their vote share has gone below BJP in TN and NTK has already over grown those 2 parties. Until unless the ADMK takes charge, ground is fertile for BJP/NTK growth in TN.
True enough. It is depressing to read your analysis, not because of terms you have used, but because of its essential content being so accurate.
 

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