Historical Combat, War, Geopolitics History and Analysis

Ryder

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Could not be more true, and lot of advance in technology ( if not the majority of it ) came from war and conflicts.
For example, the three most significant technological achievement of 20th century by and large came from military applications.

1. Energy and power production capability of mankind has been uniquely revolutionized through nuclear technology.
( I mean, many people still does not fully recognize the the extent of what we achieve through the development of nuclear technology. We literally mastered the most Supreme source of ( material ) power and energy in the whole universe. )

2. Digital technology revolution through computers which launched the human civilization in to a completely new age.

"WHEN historians examine the origins of the electronic digital
computer, they usually give top billing to the pioneering efforts of
the American scientists J. Presper Eckert and John W. Mauchly,
who built their Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer
(ENIAC) during World War II. Eckert and Mauchly are justly and
widely honored as the men whose efforts and risks led to the first
machines recognizable as modern computers. They also founded
the first private computer systems company. But historians now
also recognize a lesser known history of the computer, one whose
roots run deep into the most sensitive and secret corners of a
modern military establishment."

Here is very interesting read about it


3. Information technology revolution through internet, which brought unprecedented changes to every aspect of life.


And there are other domains of which development, military applications and demand played a significant role. ( if not THE main role )
Just for example, in aviation we all know about this man for his innovation in turbojet engine technology.
View attachment 54201
Air Commodore Sir Frank Whittle.

And we can go and on.

However, this topic is super controversial. That is why I avoided it in my first post.

Bro, I always appreciate your straight forward honesty and 'bold statements'.
If you didn't bring it up I probably wouldn't write this.

Wars and conflicts even set off the Industrial revolution.

As Europe colonised the world with military might and extracted resources this poured so much wealth into their own countries.

British colonisation of India even set off the industrial revolution because India was pretty rich which poured wealth into the British Empire.

British colonisation was mainly done with not just diplomatic and economic efforts but also military.

Even in Australia it got colonised mainly with military force.
 

Nilgiri

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@Afif @Ryder I will get to you guys replies hopefully next weekend. A bit pressed for time, and I would like to see if anyone else has something to share in interim anyway.
 

Afif

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A short overview of munich security conference.
From a western perspective he actually summarized it pretty well in my opinion.

Usually i try to listen to his content given his academic and political credentials as former prime Minister of Finland.
@Ryder @Nilgiri and others.
 

Afif

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Also, you guys can check out this one.
 

Nilgiri

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when you read the larger story of Rwanda ( and this has to be done alongside Burundi, Tanzania, DRC and to some degree Uganda as well)

Bukavu is right on the border of DRC and Rwanda.

This is some of the only footage I've seen of the rebel-mercernary joint forces in latter part of Katanga civil war.


French "influence and statecraft" extended well past West africa well into its interior that caspian report covers @Xenon54 ...given Belgian lingua franca (outside Belgium) was largely French too.

Bob Denard from movie "Mister Bob" that I watched many years ago... was acquaintance of Jean Schramme that Majorsamm talks about in the video blurb:

Danny and the Counts - Ode to the Wind
In 1967, as the now President Mobutu continued to solidify control over the Congo in pursuit of his eventual dictatorship, the exiled Prime Minister and former rebel Moise Tshombe attempted to return to the Congo to rally his fellow Katangese against him. Two-hundred or so mercenaries, led by the settler-turned-mercenary Jean Schramme swapped sides, aiding the Katangese in their uprising. Which fell apart when Tshombe was arrested. Schramme decided to gather up whoever he could and hold out in the resort town of Bukavu until help could arrive, eventually deciding to turn themselves in to the Rwandan government, who refused to repatriate them to the Congo. After the uprising ended, Mobutu began a campaign against not just the Katangese, but many of the Congo's ethnic groups he saw as disloyal, every Katangese that had taken part in the uprising and later accepted his offer of "amnesty" was executed upon their return.

Bob would be lot more notorious than Jean. After his Congo escapades and with tacit approval from French govt, he would conduct of coups against the Comoros and rule the island chain by proxy (installing puppet president there)..... in order to gun run to the various civil wars in Mozambique and Angola (caused by power vacuum, cold war proxy wars and earlier Portuguese withdrawal).
 

Afif

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Lol is that why tens of thousands of Muslims violently protest against Israel when a pin drops in the West Bank & are literally silent about Saudi in Yemen & Chinese genocide of Uyghurs?

Sometimes you have to call a spade - a spade
Here we go again!
@Gary we got another one😅

Perhaps you are choosing not to see the protest ( I also personally participated in one of them ) against Yemen war and exclusively focusing on the other part.

Besides, when there is a conflict within people with similar identity it is usually taken lightly. but when you get attacked by someone with different identity that immediately becomes a big thing.

( This is just how humam psychology works, people with similar identity tend to think they can manage the conflict between their 'brothers' sooner or later anyway, but when 'outsider' with a different idenity is attacking you it is definitley a big deal. Because in this case the chances for meaningful negotiation and finding common ground becomes very slim )

Don't you see how ult-right in europe and america are sympathetic to Russia and sometime they even try to justify Russian logic and blame NATO for the war.
One thing this war has taught me is that most people only generally care about their own kind.

Most people in Eastern countries dont care about the suffering of the Ukranian people (not saying they should after all to each their own) but seeing many people from Eastern Nations & Africa cheering on Russian Imperialism is just plain sickening.

Especially when Russia has a history of opressing Muslims in Chechnya & Central Asia.

Basically Alot of the people who complained about Western Imperialism have been exposed as hypocrites. I definitley wont care to hear from the whole "why are European countries so evil" crowd anymore.
1. I Am wondering what do you mean by 'own kind'
If I remember correctly, when bosians were facing genocide it is the muslim countries ( like Pakistan, turkey, Malaysia and others ) that taken the desicive step to supply lethal arms when your 'kind' ( if you mean, white Europeans and American ) placed arms embargoes.

2. Only very few stupid people is cheering about the war. You are generalizing too much.

3. And I don't see how people complaining about Western Imperialism is hypocrites. It is very natural to complain about something that effects you compared to what doesn't effect you.
 
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Gary

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Here we go again!
@Gary we got another one😅

Perhaps you are choosing not to see the protest ( I also personally participated in one of them ) against Yemen war and exclusively focusing on the other part.

Besides, when there is a conflict within people with similar identity it is usually taken lightly. but when you get attacked by someone with different identity that immediately becomes a big thing.

( This is just how humam psychology works, people with similar identity tend to think they can manage the conflict between their 'brothers' sooner or later anyway, but when 'outsider' with a different idenity is attacking you it is definitley a big deal. Because the chances for meaningful negotiation and finding common ground becomes very slim )

Don't you see how ult-right in europe and america are sympathetic to Russia and sometime they even try to justify Russian logic and blame NATO for the war.

I Am wondering what do you mean by 'own kind'
If I remember correctly, when bosians were facing genocide it is the muslim countries ( like Pakistan, turkey, Malaysia and others ) that taken the desicive step to supply lethal arms when your 'kind' ( if you mean, white Europeans and American ) placed arms embargoes.

I have seen enough from many side of war you know. I look closely wars in Syria, Iraq, Africa and everywhere else. I have yet to find a single major difference in one. People chose to be party of each side of the war because they could relate to those (maybe by merit of looks, belief etc).

And I don't blame them for that, but what makes me irritated is that the same people that is ignorant on people's suffering yesterday would be the same people that label people as inhuman, immoral etc just because the same thing is happening to their kind.

You know these people are the people who taught people to stay indifferent and do "business as usual" when it suits them. We have seen multiple example on why country Y should maintain good relationship with country X, and country Y better not harm any interest of country X or make moves against its people just because country X are being at odds with country A.

They will hide behind, its politics pleaze don't bring sports (for example) just because of politics. But as we could see in case of Ukraine, the same people would force people out of sport just because of his home country is at odds with theirs.

We saw Nikita Mazepin being evicted from F1 just DAYS before the start of the 2022 F1 season...just because his father Dmitry Mazepin happens to be Putin close confidant. And this comes from people who screams " don't mix sport with politics' yesterday.

PS : I'm not fan of Nikita Mazepin and I quite like that he's replaced, but you got the idea.

And as for the people of the East that screams U.S imperialism and goes on to supports Russian imperialism, I have no surprise at all, these people are the same kind of people that blames the U.S for "bombing Syria" while being ignorant that Syria's destruction is mainly due to Assad indiscriminate barrel bombing.
 

Afif

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True...and there's no #WeStandforAlgeria or #WeStandforVietnam for them, no ringtausch whatsoever and the perpetrator of war crimes on the enemy side are hailed as heroes and defenders of these countries are labelled as mobs.

So, why can't the Russians celebrate their own "heroes". and why people outside should be forced to condemn ?
I was once talking to a lovely French women ( who was student of economics or sowmthing ). Conversation was mostly random. We were talking about hijab ban and that is how Algeria's 'war of independence' enter the conversation. ( For those of who don't know, it was a symbol of resistance against French oppression during the war for Algerian women )

When it came to the matter of mass rape she very unexpectedly yet casually tried to explain it that way,

"even though it was a crime but it was kind of necessary'' children of 'LOVE' is needed to 'merge' two nation during war time''

Tbh I was literally shocked. But hey, I guess for her it was 'pragmatic Realism"

Now just imagine if we use the same logic with Russian war crimes in Ukraine, we would be considered simply as uncivilized and out of modernity.

Not to derive my conclusions from just one conversation, but the truth is over the time i came to realize, even today Almost unconsciously Europe has a different View of what it deserves for themselves compared to what others deserves.
 
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Gary

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I was once talking to a lovely French women ( who was student of economics or sowmthing ). Conversation was mostly random. We were talking about hijab ban and that is how Algeria's 'war of independence' enter the conversation. ( For those of who don't know, it was a symbol of resistance against French oppression during the war for Algerian women )

When it came to the matter of mass rape she very unexpectedly yet casually tried to explain it that way,

"even though it was a crime but it was kind of necessary'' children of 'LOVE' is needed to 'merge' two nation during war time''

Tbh I was literally shocked. But hey, I guess for her it was 'pragmatic Realism"

Now just imagine if we use the same logic with Russian war crimes in Ukraine, we would be considered simply as uncivilized and out of modernity.

Not to derive my conclusions from just one conversation, but the truth is over the time i came to realize, even today Almost unconsciously Europe has a completely different View of what it deserves for themselves compared to what others deserves.

Look no more than Sweden and the recent kidnapping of Ukrainian children from Mariupol and Kherson.

Russia re-educate those children, separate them from their mothers/parents to be brought up under "the right Russian thought"

In Sweden you have the same program, and its actually happening during peacetime.

 

Nilgiri

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Look at Frankfurt, Berlin at the end of WW2 or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, look at Hanoi or look at the cities controlled by Isis in Iraq and Syria and you have the same conclusion...levelling up cities in order to win is part of U.S military strategy.

Reminded me of much of the account that R. McNamara gave in the "Fog of War"

A snippet:


It is well worth watching in its entirety (The Fog of War)....Curtis LeMay temperament would resurface during the cuban missile crisis as well quite famously.

BTW, as much as McNamara admitted to in this documentary (at least as far as decisionmakers go), it still has never been enough for a friend of mine (who served in Vietnam)....who hated his guts along with the other 2 (LBJ and Zumwalt) he held ultimately responsible for what he saw there himself....and the worst combinations of strategy and tactics employed relative to the objectives.
 

Gary

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Reminded me of much of the account that R. McNamara gave in the "Fog of War"

A snippet:


It is well worth watching in its entirety (The Fog of War)....Curtis LeMay temperament would resurface during the cuban missile crisis as well quite famously.

BTW, as much as McNamara admitted to in this documentary (at least as far as decisionmakers go), it still has never been enough for a friend of mine (who served in Vietnam)....who hated his guts along with the other 2 (LBJ and Zumwalt) he held ultimately responsible for what he saw there himself....and the worst combinations of strategy and tactics employed relative to the objectives.
I always knew war would come to this conclusion, its not about who is right, but who is left in the end.
 

Manomed The Second

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You are right, Timurid and Mughal empire are somewhat incorrectly classified as Turkic empires.

i cannot speak for Timurid empire as i dont know much about it, but i can definitely, and rightfully talk about the Mughal empire. because IT IS OUR HISTORY, IN OUR LAND AND DEEPLY RELATED TO US, MUCH MORE THAN the people lives in modern Turkiye.

Trying to establish Turkic empire as Mughal empire's somewhat only and primary identity just because its rulers had Turkic-Mongol origin, is quite misleading.

It is nothing against Turks, they are our brothers and we love them. However, to just broadly brush MUGHAL EMPIRE as Turkic empire is problematic and lot of times this habit, overlook the empires unique nature of multiple cultural, religious and ethnic identities which are equally if not worth more as its Turkic identity. And this effort sometime may feel disrespectful to other indigenous identities which were equally part of Mughal empire.

Actually, for me broadly speaking, it make little sense to associate the idea of modern ethnic groups onto highly complex and complicated empires of old.
Beucase Timurids and mughals were turkic origin their language and culture was turkic their army was turkic what are you trying to accomplish they are not your ancestors afif.

If I hate anything that this revisionism we are talking about timurids who called themself "emir-i türküz"
 

Anastasius

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Beucase Timurids and mughals were turkic origin their language and culture was turkic their army was turkic what are you trying to accomplish they are not your ancestors afif.

If I hate anything that this revisionism we are talking about timurids who called themself "emir-i türküz"
I mean, they ARE their ancestors. Mughals were based mainly out of modern-day Bangladesh and while it's true that they have Turkic origins, that doesn't really change the fact that it's Bangladesh' history (also Pakistan and India's but those two don't really consider it the same way as Bangladesh does).
 

Manomed The Second

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I mean, they ARE their ancestors. Mughals were based mainly out of modern-day Bangladesh and while it's true that they have Turkic origins, that doesn't really change the fact that it's Bangladesh' history (also Pakistan and India's but those two don't really consider it the same way as Bangladesh does).
One is turkic other is something how Is kıpchaks are their ancestors???
 

Afif

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Beucase Timurids and mughals were turkic origin their language and culture was turkic their army was turkic what are you trying to accomplish they are not your ancestors afif.

If I hate anything that this revisionism we are talking about timurids who called themself "emir-i türküz"
I am not trying to accomplish anything.
And this is unfortunate that, you misunderstood what I wrote.

I never said dynasties weren't turkic. I said the empires ( specially the mughol empire ) as a whole had a lot of other ethnic and religious participants in it. ( Turkic Identity was a very important part of it, but it wasn't its one and only Identity )

Anyway, direcrly mughals were not my ancestors.

Actually muslim Bangla's history is more interesting.

In a nutshell, There were two turkic dynasties in indian subcontinent

Mughals And Nawabs

These folks

And these folks are my actual ancestors.

And they came from these people

More specifically from these people


And if we go back at the beginning,

This man has an important role in our history and early Muslim Bangla's identity formation.

Today a lots of Bengali Muslim carry KHAN or KHA as their surnames. ( As you can understand where did it came from )


I mean, in 15th century Bangla, MUSLIM and TURK were SYNONYMS.

In that sense, Muslim Bangla culturally and ethically has considerable Turkic influence and participation.

However, today we have a NEW identity. And it is the BENGLALI identity.

None of us are speak any Turkic anymore. People that do have actual Turkic ancestry and carry KHAN surname they themselves identify as Bengalis.

So, even those of us have Turkic blood, we are not our ancestors.

Now we have a NEW identity which we hold dear to our heart.

( Of course, this is not to disrespect Anything of Turkic Identity. But as i said we have a new one )

And i hope you respect that as I respect your identity and self determination.

@Ryder @Anastasius
 
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