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Afif

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Political categorizations like any categorization has to meet certain criteria. The criteria are: completeness (that the whole domain under discussion should be covered by the n number of categories chosen), mutual exclusivity (each object or entity should unambiguously belong to only one category, i.e. categories should have no intersection), proportionality (categories should be of similar size and have objects of similar granularity), relevance (objects should be of the same type), and parsimony (the lowest number of categories that can meet the other criteria should be used.)

The categorization of the landscape of political positions, ideologies, ideals, policies and values into a single axis left-right spectrum obviously doesn't meet any of the criteria mentioned. It is not complete as it is only one-dimensional. The objects of the domain (ideals, policies, values) are not well-defined which means they cannot be mutually exclusive. They are also not proportional (many right-wing values and ideals are mostly default reactions of humans to certain phenomena [the debate is how much we can stray from the path our evolutionary past has carved for us towards objective rationality without breaking things so a compromise is needed between traditional more simple right-wing values mostly a result of human reactions, and left values which result from theory-crafting and defying nature; the baseline human condition has been to lean into the more immediate reactions until the past 300 years, and the theory-crafting has alsoe seen itself be vulnerable from straying for the path towards rationality], making them contain a larger array of objects). Relevance is the weakest point of this categorization as the ideals, values and policies the categories lump together mostly have no rhyme or reason in what components they share, let alone the fact that the ideals and policy-positions change based on spatial and temporal context. I will not enumerate the other ways the categories don't meet the criteria for brevity, but you get the point.


Now one might object that a categorization that perfectly meets all the criteria is not possible. That's true, and most natural language categorizations are done for their utility in communication more than for objective categorization. So does this categorization have utility? Yes but with a gaping caveat: it has made itself useful as the categorization itself has shaped perceptions about political alignments historically in its own image through adoption by parties, factions, etc. Hence the utility is contingent, the same way the categorization of late romans into green and blue based on the color of charioteer teams they supported was contingently useful.

The historical roots of the utility of this categorization makes it a point of team-sports for those who adopt it to the point of seeing themselves as sharing the disparate ideals and policy-positions associated with these categories and having a common cause and history with the groups, parties and political factions who have adopted the monikers, hence making this a point of pride and identity, further enhancing grouping cohesion, adding to the practical utility of seeing political actors in the light of this originally pretty bad categorization.

Now say these things to any right-winger or left-winger and most scoff at you and say to you: "What the fuck are you on about, it's not that serious". Now I'm say that to show my main point: both left and right will share in that response because culture is a tsunami wave that hauls everything on its way together. The left and right share much more than they think they do. If culture moves in ways that I think is wrong, both the left and the right will inherit it irrespective of their positions. I think certain aspects of culture have been moving in wrong directions (in other aspects the trend towards better directions has been proven inevitable; will touch on this later). Anti-intellectualism, thinking in preconceived notions and molds, ready-made answers, aversion to suspension of judgement, intolerance of intellectual curiosity, an obsession with identity and an insistence on metaphysical reality of these fictitious identities; these are all things the left and the right share. I don't like this general cultural trend, and the fact that the left-right categorization has no way of taking these values and my dislike of them into account is the ultimate point I'm making here. What am I if I don't like left and right in this way?

Some will say you are at the center. Others will say that the right do oppose these cultural trends. In the case of the latter, there's a tangible increase in chatter about these things from the right (and they seem to have taken the mantel of blabbing about things like "freedom of speech" and "values of civilization" from the left which historically has been the side that tries to claim some of these values), but wherever there's a lot of blabber about something, there's a decided lack of the same thing also (which is exactly why there's a need to emphasize it a lot) and this is extra true for many right-wingers who seem to be the most incurious, ready-made answer having, least tolerant, judgment-suspending critters on earth. But there are right-wingers who are the opposite of this as well (Peter Hitchens comes to mind) but we have to lump them together unfortunately as the result of this historically adopted categorization.

About the former position of people like me being center because we're against left or right because of their practical (irrespective of lip-service) aversion to the ideals mentioned, I have to disagree. Center is about stability, and protection of status-quo. There was before the 1970s and esp. 1990s after the fall of soviets a real sense of insecurity on both sides about their truths as there was an opposing camp out there that could not be silenced. With the fall of soviets, the liberal and conservative side (the right-wing) lost this insecurity (cf. Huntington, Fukuyama) and this has been mirrored in culture and political discourse moving the Overton window to the right. So the old center-right (liberals) has become center in many parts of Europe (and in U.S. and some other places they are even considered center-left because of perceptions of progressiveness in social policy; or even by some they are considered far left, which is a joke as there's nothing far or subversive about liberals; conservatives are liberals themselves, they just don't know it and think just because they disagree with the socially liberal liberals on a couple of cultural issues that they, the socially conservative liberals are drastically different).

Before this upwelling of liberal confidence which dragged the center towards it, the center-right was pro-market liberals (Neo-classical Marshallians, Jevonians, Walrasians in a sense), the center-left was pro-mixed economy social democrats (Keynesians, Pigouvians, Kahnians if you will) and the center was much more opaque. Now what people call center is just a pale shade of right and the attitudes of ready-made answers (talking heads with talking points) is as prevalent among them as it is with cultural vogue leftists or those who worship at the altar of Marx (or Adam Smith, same difference).

I said I will touch on those aspects of culture which I think are going in the right direction and these are the things which seem to be long trends which depend on modern institutions and modes of life rather than spontaneous changes of mentality. This will pertain to your point more directly. Until a couple decades ago in many underdeveloped parts of the world (and even to this day in some places), and until 70, 80 years ago in many western cultures, torturing animals and laughing at freaks in circuses was the favorite pastime of the populace. But through what Norbert Elias calls the civilizing process, these acts of violence and other mentalities of cruelty and lack of compassion and tolerance are in a general downtrend in the world and this trend is continuing, albeit maybe with some local and temporal breaks in the trend here and there.

This is not however paralleled in personal attitudes following a similar trend when biases and intellectual honesty, curiosity and pro-intellectualism are in question. The civilizing process, hence is more a result of deeper societal factors like the monopoly of state on violence, urbanization, a minimum level of education for all, food security due to chemical fertilizers and pesticides etc. and it will continue independent of other less appealing cultural trends that I talked about previously. What many see as a conspiracy and a left-wing shift in culture is a byproduct of this process. I'm talking about the topic of culture wars in the west, lgbt rights, abortion, multiculturalism, social justice, etc. What many perceive as attempts at propagandizing them about these issues, is just a function of high concentration of abnormal and marginal groups in big urban centers and the further fact of these big urban centers being also centers of entertainment industry coupled with the fact that everyone writes themselves and their environment into their fiction.

Other part of this civilizing process that is seen as a promotion of left-wing values is its effect on women, age of marriage, their income and the level of control they have over their relations. Incidentally there was a debate about the age of Aisha when she married the prophet in our country a week or so ago. Funnily enough this was first used by mainly British orientalists like Sir William Muir and David Margoliouth to attack Islam, when debutante balls in Britain paraded 12 year old girls to their prospect suitors in their 30s up until like 1920s. A change in socio-economic conditions (transition from agricultural production, and also that agricultural production being guaranteed to surpass subsistence levels due to technological advances, making the obtaining of numerous male children as early as possible not as necessary is the main reason getting rid of useless daughters as early as possible for parents, and getting married as soon as possible to girls as soon as they hit puberty to guarantee maximum amount of sons, waned as a practice, coupled with the fact that with the new opportunities of education and employment, girls were not seen necessary as a burden by their parents, and they also didn't see their best prospects as exclusively marrying to the highest bidder and becoming a comfortable housewife.) necessitates changes in culture henceforth. These trends will continue. The frustrations with the change of trend to those born to a different world, or to parents with values from a different world has only lead to the defeat of those resisting in the past couple of centuries.

Now what this means for younger voters, and their preferences isn't straight-forward; esp. regarding anything other than cultural strife. For cultural strife, though, my prediction is that the civilizing trend will continue although local over-extensions (for instance what some see as propagandizing of lgbt groups in entertainment or excessive power of females in deciding for their relationships and their bodies leading to antagonism towards and caricaturization of portraitures of feminism and women's rights, the excesses themselves a byproduct of newfound confidence borne out of new socioeconomic realities) may lead to correction intervals (where the reaction succeeds for a decade or so to reverse the effect). As I said, since the civilizing effect is seen as correlated with left-wing cultural ideals, the continuation of the trend will mean a more "left-wing" trend in those areas, if you will. But such cultural ideals are tied at the hip with other ideals of multiculturalism (which also means a more tolerant attitude toward migrants, refugees, etc.) since they all have their roots in the hodgepodge of big urban center life. The contrasts in these areas can be more stark (esp. in the west as it can turn into the easily tangible contrast between white vs brown, or western vs Muslim) and the adoption of those ideals might not have the same socio-economic force behind it that the other aforementioned stuff does. In fact the opposite might be true, and you might get people who are "left" on lgbt, abortion and feminism issues, but right-wing on immigration and multiculturalism. I'm not sure about this, I haven't really thought about it that deeply.

In terms of the economic side of things, my prediction depends on the assumption that left economics is kind of dead. But since the decades ahead will be times of turmoil whatever the status quo is will lose power. The status quo by an Austrian will be perceived to be Keynesian and what alternative they will demand will be (surprise!) libertarianism, but the status quo that the Marxist sees will be neoliberalism and the alternative they demand will be (surprise!) Marxism, and some liberals will agree with the Austrian, some with the Marxist and some will think the status quo is liberal and good actually (absolute minority). I think since I proclaimed that left economics is dead, then we have to conclude that in this scenario the Austrian will prevail in persuading larger swathes of people and a period of central bank abolishment and privatization of all will ensue; the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw period (I see it happening around 2040) will not be pretty; the pendulum swing will probably revive some sort of violent reaction to the other side and Marxism may be on the scene again, as historical alternatives have staying power as they form political traditions. But if conditions go haywire due to climate change more than it's predicted and our institutions collapse and we revert to a less-educated populace the absolute primacy of previously mentioned immediate reactions might take over again. It's all vain speculation anyway. Other than the continuation of the civilizing process in the long run (with local setbacks here and there due to weakening of socioeconomic factors making it possible), I have not much else substantial to say.

This is exactly what I had in mind. This 'Civilizing' process and its long term direction. You put it better than I could. IMO, it needs to be emphasised more often that this process is not some unique discovery or innovation in the moral realm that led us to be objectively better than the people before us, as many progressive make it out to be. Rather, is it largely dirven by the unprecedented meterial changes that has taken place in recent periods.


In general one cannot agure against how much internet revolution and social media has advanced the cause of this process worldwide in 21th century. But interestingly also, I came to observe, perhaps how as an unintended consequence of this the elite lost much of their cultural control and grip over societies within short period of time. I mean, even two decades ago when most news and informations were being channelled through traditional media outlets, (both electronic and print media) everything was much more sanitized. Obviously back then (just as now) most of them were bias and policitally motivated, (each owning their loyalties to their respective side of the political spectrum) still it had some standard. However, when excessive democratization of information happened through social media revolution, two things occured.

First, vast amount of accessable unfiltered raw information rapidly overwhelmed most peoples capacity to comprehend, and it became much harder to tell the truth from half-truth. Blatant disinformation and misinformation played and conntinue to play a bigger role. Previously at least most people would grasped the sanitized and selected versions that traditional media would tell. But this is no more. (To make it even worse, to compete with social media, traditional outlets has only gone more and more to the extreme end of their respective sides. Ironically, but somewhat predictably it only hurt their own credibility.) This mess only amplflied the immediate reactionary tendencies in masses due to a higher level of confusion, and greater level of exposure to basically all the bad things happening everywhere.

Secondly, social media gave everyone a voice (which was previously carefully controlled and sanitized by the elite in traditional media) and people got to say what they wanted to say wihtout any consequences. Hence, there may appear to be a recent shift toward right wing ideology and the hateful stuff, the fact is, it was always there and only coming out now due to the access and means.
 
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contricusc

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There is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to European politics as to what “hard right” or “extrreme right“ means. Because the mainstream media is left wing, they have promoted a left wing narative for decades, which in turn resulted in a move to the left of all political parties.

What used to be center-right parties (like the Conservatives in Britain, Les Republicans in France or CDU in Germany) turned to center-left parties, because of constant mediatic pressure. The media constantly promoted the wants of the left wing (more social benefits, more money to education and healthcare, higher pensions, etc.) while denigrating the wants of the right wing (less regulation, lower taxes, less immigration, more order, less crime).

Because politicians hate to be criticized by the media, they tend to appease the media at the expense of their electorate. So what happened is people voted for center-right electoral platforms, and once their party won the election, it delivered a center-left government, as politicians simply obeyed the media, instead of keeping their promises to the electorate.

Being dissatisfied with the so called traditional center-right parties, people started looking at new options on the right. The new center-right parties that appeared (Fratelli d’Italia, Vox, AFD, Reform, National Rally, etc.) simply filled the void left by the former center-right parties who moved to the left. They tapped the former electorate of the traditional parties.

Since the media‘s objective is to control the political narrative and move it always to the left, they labeled the new center-right parties as “far right” or “extreme right”, in order to associate them with the madness of WW2 and scare away the electorate.

But the truth is that the so called “far right” European parties are just the center-right parties of 40 years ago (in terms of doctrine), while the traditional center-right parties ae now center-left parties. The former center-left parties are now hard left parties, and we can see that by how easily they can form alliances with downright communist parties (see the current alliance in France, that comprises the Communist Party and Holland’s Socialists).

The conclusion is, “hard right” is just a label invented by the mainstream media to scare away the electorate from these new center right parties, in order to defend their center-left uniparty that has ruled for decades.

It would actually be healthy for Europe to have these parties dominate politics for a while, as they would shift the narrative more to the center of the political spectrum.
 

Rooxbar

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There is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to European politics as to what “hard right” or “extrreme right“ means. Because the mainstream media is left wing, they have promoted a left wing narative for decades, which in turn resulted in a move to the left of all political parties.

What used to be center-right parties (like the Conservatives in Britain, Les Republicans in France or CDU in Germany) turned to center-left parties, because of constant mediatic pressure. The media constantly promoted the wants of the left wing (more social benefits, more money to education and healthcare, higher pensions, etc.) while denigrating the wants of the right wing (less regulation, lower taxes, less immigration, more order, less crime).

Because politicians hate to be criticized by the media, they tend to appease the media at the expense of their electorate. So what happened is people voted for center-right electoral platforms, and once their party won the election, it delivered a center-left government, as politicians simply obeyed the media, instead of keeping their promises to the electorate.

Being dissatisfied with the so called traditional center-right parties, people started looking at new options on the right. The new center-right parties that appeared (Fratelli d’Italia, Vox, AFD, Reform, National Rally, etc.) simply filled the void left by the former center-right parties who moved to the left. They tapped the former electorate of the traditional parties.

Since the media‘s objective is to control the political narrative and move it always to the left, they labeled the new center-right parties as “far right” or “extreme right”, in order to associate them with the madness of WW2 and scare away the electorate.

But the truth is that the so called “far right” European parties are just the center-right parties of 40 years ago (in terms of doctrine), while the traditional center-right parties ae now center-left parties. The former center-left parties are now hard left parties, and we can see that by how easily they can form alliances with downright communist parties (see the current alliance in France, that comprises the Communist Party and Holland’s Socialists).

The conclusion is, “hard right” is just a label invented by the mainstream media to scare away the electorate from these new center right parties, in order to defend their center-left uniparty that has ruled for decades.

It would actually be healthy for Europe to have these parties dominate politics for a while, as they would shift the narrative more to the center of the political spectrum.

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Huelague

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Is Europe shifting rightward? It seems so.
The answer of this question is a clearly, YES!
Their is one important point more. It doesnt matter if you are a lefty or right in germany. They almost all anti Muslims and racists.
 
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Erdogan expects positive and intensive development of relations with Iran after the presidential elections there and the victory of Masoud Pezeshkian.
Erdogan: “Masud Pezeshkian is actually a Turk of Azerbaijani origin. In Tabriz he speaks Turkic, but when he comes to the Kurdish regions, he can speak Kurdish there. He also uses Farsi well. I will contact him and congratulate him. We hope that relations between Turkey and Iran will improve in the future."

Pezeshkian's predecessor, the late Raisi, never found time to go to Turkey, despite the invitation and promise to come.

Over the course of several days, I read many articles from different sources. It is surprising that here, in Britain, in America and even in Russia, no one expects anything... new from the new president. Everyone is unanimous that he will not be able to change this stupid system in Iran. Moreover, the country's foreign policy.
You can easily die of sadness:(
Especially after the goals conceded yesterday:cry:
In Iran, presidents are puppets. Just like in the UK...

In Iran, the supreme leader has the real power.
 

Kartal1

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Guys, we saw a rise in non-translated posts. Stick to English and if you want to discuss something in your native language you can tag the person in the respective chit chat thread of your nationality or thread where it is allowed.

Warning was given and message deleted.

Thank you!
 

Iskander

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Wanting to become a member of Sco when we are a member of Nato? Our government is talking nonsense as usual.

Btw, I would say yes to leaving NATO.
The SCO is not a military bloc. You can join this organization while remaining a member of NATO. Why should Türkiye leave NATO???:rolleyes:

Hungary is a member of NATO and the EU, but also wants to be in the Organization of Turkic States.
Armenia - it is a member of the Russian military bloc CSTO, but at the same time it has become a strategic partner of the United States.
By the way, just a week after Washington announced this, China and Azerbaijan also announced a strategic partnership.
We (Azerbaijan) will become a full member of the SCO in the coming years (possibly in 2025).
Since the Europeans do not want to accept Turkey and Azerbaijan into the EU, we have every right to do what is beneficial to us.

What confuses you about the SCO?:)
 
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Sanchez

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You upset me. You think I don't know that? The members know what I mean.
My actual point was that, no kings and queens do not hold actual power over UK politics. It is by all means a popular democracy and parties hold the power with their prime ministers, and bureaucrats who are not assigned by the crown but civil systems.
 

Baryshx

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The SCO is not a military bloc. You can join this organization while remaining a member of NATO. Why should Türkiye leave NATO???:rolleyes:

Hungary is a member of NATO and the EU, but also wants to be in the Organization of Turkic States.
Armenia - it is a member of the Russian military bloc CSTO, but at the same time it has become a strategic partner of the United States.
By the way, just a week after Washington announced this, China and Azerbaijan also announced a strategic partnership.
We (Azerbaijan) will become a full member of the SCO in the coming years (possibly in 2025).
Since the Europeans do not want to accept Turkey and Azerbaijan into the EU, we have every right to do what is beneficial to us.

What confuses you about the SCO?:)
Is it something wrong with the forum or is it me?

Do you think maybe I don't know that Sco is not a military organization?

Nato was founded to oppose Russia, now it opposes both Russia and China. If you cooperate with them very seriously, the US will not be silent. Besides, why would China and Russia want to take a member from Nato, which is hostile to them?

Under normal circumstances, China and Russia should say no. Unless they have another strategic plan.
 

Iskander

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Is it something wrong with the forum or is it me?

Do you think maybe I don't know that Sco is not a military organization?

Nato was founded to oppose Russia, now it opposes both Russia and China. If you cooperate with them very seriously, the US will not be silent. Besides, why would China and Russia want to take a member from Nato, which is hostile to them?

Under normal circumstances, China and Russia should say no. Unless they have another strategic plan.
Turkish Ambassador to China Ismail Hakki Musa in an interview with the Chinese newspaper Huanqiu Shibao:
“The desire to join BRICS will not change Turkey’s attitude towards joining the European Union, but we are realistic. We have waited more than 50 years, but our European partners are still not ready to accept us as a full member.”

Musa suggested that the European Union's reluctance to accept his country as a full member is due to the fact that Turkey belongs to a different cultural code. “BRICS is an international organization that embraces many different cultures and is focused on economic cooperation,” explained the diplomat, discussing his country’s intention to join the bloc.
The ambassador also added that he considers Turkey’s desire to join BRICS natural, given the bloc’s role in modern economics and geopolitics.


France, being a member of NATO, pursues a foreign policy completely independent of it and is in a military alliance with countries outside the organization.
The United States 3 weeks ago declared Armenia, a country unfriendly to Turkey, a strategic partner and is literally now conducting military exercises with the Armenian army not far from the very border of Turkey. etc.
Does Turkey need NATO more or vice versa? This is still a controversial issue.
If Turkie had nuclear weapons, this question would not have arisen...

Turkey has a military alliance with Azerbaijan, and I dream of the day when our Central Asian brothers join us. If Russians, French, Americans or Armenians don't like it, let them drink cold water. They say it helps :)


China and Russia will be happy to see Turkey in both BRICS and the SCO.
 
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Kartal1

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Turkish Ambassador to China Ismail Hakki Musa in an interview with the Chinese newspaper Huanqiu Shibao:
“The desire to join BRICS will not change Turkey’s attitude towards joining the European Union, but we are realistic. We have waited more than 50 years, but our European partners are still not ready to accept us as a full member.”

Musa suggested that the European Union's reluctance to accept his country as a full member is due to the fact that Turkey belongs to a different cultural code. “BRICS is an international organization that embraces many different cultures and is focused on economic cooperation,” explained the diplomat, discussing his country’s intention to join the bloc.
The ambassador also added that he considers Turkey’s desire to join BRICS natural, given the bloc’s role in modern economics and geopolitics.


France, being a member of NATO, pursues a foreign policy completely independent of it and is in a military alliance with countries outside the organization.
The United States 3 weeks ago declared Armenia, a country unfriendly to Turkey, a strategic partner and is literally now conducting military exercises with the Armenian army not far from the very border of Turkey. etc.
Does Turkey need NATO more or vice versa? This is still a controversial issue.
If Turkie had nuclear weapons, this question would not have arisen...


China and Russia will be happy to see Turkey in both BRICS and the SCO.
We should intensify our efforts around the Organization of the Turkic States and include a security/defence treaty.

This is an organization which should enforce its position in the region and for this it should keep a serious posture towards Russia.

After Azerbaijan did what it had to do in the Caucasus the position of Russia towards the country is different. We should enforce this same position in the whole Central Asian region, keep the independence and sovereignty of the countries part of the organization and build friendly neighboring relationships with countries like Russia and China.

As we see there is a New World Order being formed right now and the Turkic world should take its fair place in this world order as a stable and powerful alliance.
 

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One of the enemies of Turkiye is out of the game. It is time for celebration! 🥳🥳🥳

Senator Menendez, who was tried for bribery and corruption in the USA, was found guilty


Former Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez, who was tried in the USA on bribery and corruption charges, was found guilty by the court jury.

The court jury decided that Menendez was guilty of all 16 separate charges, including taking bribes, obstructing justice by pressuring investigations against him, and engaging in activities for a foreign country.

It is stated that Menendez may face up to 20 years in prison for each of the substances he is found guilty of.

Menendez is known for his anti-Turkiye stance and closeness to the Greek and Armenian lobbies in the US Congress. While Menendez was one of those who opposed the F-16 sale from the USA to Turkiye, he also brought up his discomfort with Turkiye's policies in the Mediterranean and Aegean at every opportunity.

 

Lool

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One of the enemies of Turkiye is out of the game. It is time for celebration! 🥳🥳🥳

Senator Menendez, who was tried for bribery and corruption in the USA, was found guilty

Former Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez, who was tried in the USA on bribery and corruption charges, was found guilty by the court jury.

The court jury decided that Menendez was guilty of all 16 separate charges, including taking bribes, obstructing justice by pressuring investigations against him, and engaging in activities for a foreign country.

It is stated that Menendez may face up to 20 years in prison for each of the substances he is found guilty of.

Menendez is known for his anti-Turkiye stance and closeness to the Greek and Armenian lobbies in the US Congress. While Menendez was one of those who opposed the F-16 sale from the USA to Turkiye, he also brought up his discomfort with Turkiye's policies in the Mediterranean and Aegean at every opportunity.

Mark my words, sooner or later his armenian wife will file for divorce, take half of his money and his life will crumble to hell. Loool🥳🥳🥳🥳
 
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Iskander

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Mark my words, sooner or later his greek wife will file for divorce, take half of his money and his life will crumble to hell. Loool🥳🥳🥳🥳
His wife is not Greek.
Worse. She is Armenian :cry:
Menendez is out of luck - she will leave him without pants:LOL:

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Afif

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Folks! The lesson here is, evil cannot last forever.

And now we know how to win. We defencehub members and as a forum just need to outlast them.😁

And believe you me we will!
 
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