TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Rooxbar]

Supplicant!!! Look at operation Atilla and compare that to Annan plan and you'll see what supplicant means. And that was in the 70s, what with all the global economic recession and the rest of it. The begging that's been going on for f16s which is due to the purge of the secular foreign policy actors and "monşers" who knew the ins and outs of the U.S. political system and how to exploit it is also another great sign compared to the amount of technology transfer we got when we forced them to agree to domestic production, along with the deal we got out of them via the negotiations to be partner in f-35 consortium which started in 1997 and culminated in 2002 compared to how we got kicked out and couldn't do zilch about it, along with how they've been holding every single refugee who wants to go to EU inside our country paying pennies for every dollar of our resources which they gobble up, along with this:

 

[IC3M@N FX]

@Asena_great It's just too long for me why can't you reduce it to a minimum instead of posting or telling the complete story here. Above all, I don't know if you're not cherry picking what you're doing....z.b bending the story without having watched every single video or accusing you of lying or being untruthful, I must honestly admit it's too exhausting for me to read it all.

So my question is, when you compare the past with the countless coups the country has experienced, has there ever been a benefit for the people and the country? Were the people better off after the economy was driven to the wall several times when 1 German Mark was worth 1000000 Lira? Where children sold Sümit & Cola at 10 p.m. in long-distance bus stations in torn T-shirts and plastic shoes when there were hardly any airports to East Anatolia.
Of course there is still poverty in Turkey today, but in my time I had almost only seen these situations.
There was only rich or poor, the middle class was non-existent like in many third world countries.

I also knew this Turkey in the 80-90s where there was no infrastructure, no proper medical care anywhere in Turkey, and the restaurants and stores sold expired food, where bus rest stops stank of shit because they hadn't cleaned their toilets for eons because there was no quality standard or self-esteem to pass this on to other people.
I remember when I was on vacation in my childhood, there was so well no Turkey vacation where I had no stomach virus these memories firmly anchored with me.

I want to be honest, I am not interested in what Erdogan and his family may be doing, or embezzling money, or practicing nepotism! Because I know the next politician who comes to power will do exactly the same.
It has been done in the past, it is being done in the present and it will be done in the future.

For me, only tangible things are important!
What he do in his term of office:

Has the quality of life of the people in the country been improved compared to before in the general population? Yes

Has the air, train and bus infrastructure been improved? Yes

Would medical care be improved across the board? Yes

Has the energy infrastructure been improved? Yes

Has the technology in the country been improved both in the industry & defense industry and most recently also for the civilian population through synergies? Yes

Have standards been set for food regulations in stores and healthcare in restaurants? Yes

As I said, Erdogan is no saint and there are many things he does wrong, but no one can deny his successes!

 

[Asena_great]

It's just too long for me why can't you reduce it to a minimum instead of posting or telling the complete story here.

dede i have nothing else to tell you and in my opinion your right to vote need to be revoked.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

dede i have nothing else to tell you and in my opinion your right to vote need to be revoked.

I am 42 years old and far from Dede, there are many people like me who know the past and the present, and I am glad that many people think rationally. If I were an American, I would vote for Trump. I just want to see people in government who can act and make a difference.
Previous governments have had their chance and have failed miserably. For me, the debate about whether Erdogan is good or bad is also exhausting. If you can do better, then you should stand for election and convince people that you can do better and help all people in Turkey with different interest groups and ethnicities. Good luck...... because you will always be the asshole of one interest group.

 

[Zoth]

Has the air, train and bus infrastructure been improved? Yes

Would medical care be improved across the board? Yes

Has the energy infrastructure been improved? Yes

Has the technology in the country been improved both in the industry & defense industry and most recently also for the civilian population through synergies? Yes

Have standards been set for food regulations in stores and healthcare in restaurants? Yes

By just reading this part i can tell that this friend has not lived in Turkey for a very long time, i'm not trying to personally target him but living in Turkey as a Turk can be considered one of the worst fates. A typical normal Turkish person dosn't even have a free healthcare compared to a syrian refugee in damn Turkey.

I won't even mention the food regulation part, this is just totally wrong.


Has those points you mentioned improved? Yes, but at what cost? Making a bridge that costs 4x times the amount that would normally cost, making it also passenger guaranteed that burdens the daily person even more with taxes and costs.

Again, at what cost?

 

[Rooxbar]

@Asena_great Were the people better off after the economy was driven to the wall several times when 1 German Mark was worth 1000000 Lira?

That's not how currencies work btw, the brute numbers tell us nothing; it's like saying 10000 mm is bigger than 5 inches. 46 Mauritian Rupee is 1 dollar, while 154 Japanese Yen is also one dollar, but obviously the bigger number, Japanese Yen in this case, is not the worse one, although its nominal value is lower than the Mauritian one.

It's about average income, rate of minimum wage workers, inflation, purchasing power, circulating supply, etc.; it's relative. You can have a currency (let's call it Lorin) with exchange rate of 1 billion Lorin to 1 dollar but the people in the country earn on average 10k billion Lorens a month which makes it 10k dollars, if it's with comparable inflation with the world average that would make it a very strong currency due to the purchasing power of the amount of it in circulation.

 

[Zoth]

That's not how currencies work btw, the brute numbers tell us nothing, it's like saying 10000 mm is bigger than 5 inches. 46 Mauritian Rupee is 1 dollar, while 154 Japanese Yen is also one dollar, but obviously the bigger number is not the worse one. It's about average income, rate of minimum wage workers, inflation, purchasing power; it's relative.

Just to add to this very true take, what's more important is the stability of the currency(inflation/deflation), when the currency is very unstable, inland market has hard time on setting the real prices, which what they end up doing is overpricing just so they can compensate against very unstable currency( for the inflation in our case).

 

[Rooxbar]

Just to add to this very true take, what's more important is the stability of the currency(inflation/deflation), when the currency is very unstable, inland market has hard time on setting the real prices, which what they end up doing is overpricing just so they can compensate against very unstable currency( for the inflation in our case).

Just a side note, the word "take", used in this sense, along with the words "entrepreneur" and "STEM" are my least favourite words. Interestingly "enterprise" is one of my favourites.

 

[Iskander]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

 

[Ryder]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

Hamas stayed in Qatar for a decade or so. I never heard of the USA screeching about sanctions or embargoes on Qatar.

 

[Zoth]

Hamas stayed in Qatar for a decade or so. I never heard of the USA screeching about sanctions or embargoes on Qatar.

At this point we shouldn't really care to be totally honest, the world is not unipolar anymore, they don't have the balls to fully sanction us, even if they do something this crazy, they should be ready to fully lose us at this rate.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

s400 was typical terrible islamist style politics. They probably thought both russia and the usa is supporting my enemies in sryia, if i buy s400, Russia will show me favours, while the Americans seeing i'm moving towards Russia they will relent on their support for greater middle east. In reality all that happened is that once they went russian they encouraged the americans to screw us, while the russians seeing we lost leverage with the americans bent us over harder. S400 was so dumb, a proper belly dancer style of politics that has been typical of ak party.

However once they booted these loser islamists from f35 and humilated them in front of the entire world, they had to hold course. What they could not do is go back begging the americans. Because by doing that, you basically told them that their strategy to bully and humiliate Islamic civilisation worked. Guess what, they will keep doing it.

Whichever short-sighted moron thought to buy russian shit, had to do so with the full acceptance that this may be the point we never buy american again. But ofcourse these belly dancers didn't think of that. But don't worry an airport or two got built in the southeast so the success cannot be refuted.

Middle east is finished, its just a matter of time when the entire region becomes the new Palestine.

 

[Asena_great]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

sure why not i am willing to handover hamas leaders to US in exchange i have a list of fetöcu including Ünal Tatar the former employee in TÜBİTAK who made forged document and evidence against army and play a key role in opening of kozmik oda

he is currently a professor in american university and tech cyber security

Unal Tatar | University at Albany

View contact information for Unal Tatar, Assistant Professor, Cybersecurity Department at the University at Albany. View phone number and email address for Unal Tatar.

www.albany.edu

the link above is his page

 

[Dennixtoue]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

This is America State Department hypocrites, the indiscriminate slaughter of Afghans and Iraqis, the slaughter of defenseless children by Washington, all because of the Zionist politicalin Washington, all serial killers who support colossal genocide committed by the hands of Israel. The Jews of America who commit war crimes around the world, yes, the collaborators to traitors of America should be handed over to us for trial.

 

[Asena_great]

the collaborators to traitors of America should be handed over to us for trial.

they haven’t done anything to our people so we don't give a fuck however those who did wrong our people, killed our generals in prison as well as 848 intelligent agent are in the US, the Fetullah gulen's tarikat members. how interesting that you don't give a fuck about our people and fetö but you do care about Palestinians and willing to cannon fodder our country and its interest for their sake. hizbut tahrir did a number on you. if you feel that you are part of ummah and not turkish nation why dont you return your citizenship ??

 

[IC3M@N FX]

s400 was typical terrible islamist style politics. They probably thought both russia and the usa is supporting my enemies in sryia, if i buy s400, Russia will show me favours, while the Americans seeing i'm moving towards Russia they will relent on their support for greater middle east. In reality all that happened is that once they went russian they encouraged the americans to screw us, while the russians seeing we lost leverage with the americans bent us over harder. S400 was so dumb, a proper belly dancer style of politics that has been typical of ak party.

However once they booted these loser islamists from f35 and humilated them in front of the entire world, they had to hold course. What they could not do is go back begging the americans. Because by doing that, you basically told them that their strategy to bully and humiliate Islamic civilisation worked. Guess what, they will keep doing it.

Whichever short-sighted moron thought to buy russian shit, had to do so with the full acceptance that this may be the point we never buy american again. But ofcourse these belly dancers didn't think of that. But don't worry an airport or two got built in the southeast so the success cannot be refuted.

Middle east is finished, its just a matter of time when the entire region becomes the new Palestine.

Do you even know what an Islamist is? I am not an absolute fan of AKP and Erdogan but they are definitely not Islamists, otherwise we would already have Afghanistan conditions here.
Also in the AKP/MHP party, women have very high ranks in politics, military, and health care and industry and military industry. This is unimaginable in an Ultra Islamist government.
AKP is an arch conservative party like most Republicans in the USA, but nevertheless I think more of him and his party than the other idiots from CHP, IYI Party or Hüda Par or the undercover terror party DEM.
The AKP/MHP has been in power for more than 20 years, women still don't all wear headscarves, that's a voluntary decision, and they all still wear very short miniskirts if they want to, provided they can bear the oblique looks of horny fools they attract in Turkey.
On the beach most women and no I'm not talking about foreign vacationers but Turkish women also wear thongs and also men and women they still drink in restaurants and Cafés ect.
So we are still a long way from an ultra-Islamic transformation and the broad base of the population doesn't want that either, and AKP/MHP dont want and can't change it either, otherwise they would already have this transformation.

The s400 deal necessary or not Turkey needed long range defense systems, it is not Turkey's fault if they did not get it from the USA. Then one should rather question the partnership attitude of the USA. This eternal mistrust is also just a consequence of several steps and is not completly Türkiyes fault. According to the motto from US Government we don't give you PATRIOTS but you are not allowed to buy other systems either...so one thing leads to another.
The USA thinks the PKK/YPG aka SDF are freedom fighters ok then for us the HAMAS are also freedom fighters the game can also be played in pairs. Using a terrorist organization as a tool for power projection.

 

[Iskander]

Do you even know what an Islamist is? I am not an absolute fan of AKP and Erdogan but they are definitely not Islamists, otherwise we would already have Afghanistan conditions here.
Also in the AKP/MHP party, women have very high ranks in politics, military, and health care and industry and military industry. This is unimaginable in an Ultra Islamist government.
AKP is an arch conservative party like most Republicans in the USA, but nevertheless I think more of him and his party than the other idiots from CHP, IYI Party or Hüda Par or the undercover terror party DEM.
The AKP/MHP has been in power for more than 20 years, women still don't all wear headscarves, that's a voluntary decision, and they all still wear very short miniskirts if they want to, provided they can bear the oblique looks of horny fools they attract in Turkey.
On the beach most women and no I'm not talking about foreign vacationers but Turkish women also wear thongs and also men and women they still drink in restaurants and Cafés ect.
So we are still a long way from an ultra-Islamic transformation and the broad base of the population doesn't want that either, and AKP/MHP dont want and can't change it either, otherwise they would already have this transformation.

The s400 deal necessary or not Turkey needed long range defense systems, it is not Turkey's fault if they did not get it from the USA. Then one should rather question the partnership attitude of the USA. This eternal mistrust is also just a consequence of several steps and is not completly Türkiyes fault. According to the motto from US Government we don't give you PATRIOTS but you are not allowed to buy other systems either...so one thing leads to another.
The USA thinks the PKK/YPG aka SDF are freedom fighters ok then for us the HAMAS are also freedom fighters the game can also be played in pairs. Using a terrorist organization as a tool for power projection.

The AKP is an Islamist party - this cliche was invented in the West. When Erdogan did not object to the West on any issue concerning foreign policy, they praised him; during the "Arab Spring" the West even presented Erdogan's Turkey as an example to Muslim countries. But when Erdogan began to pursue a foreign policy independent from the West, they began to brand him as an Islamist, an authoritarian leader, sometimes even a dictator. Note: the German Christian Democratic Party is not a religious party, but the AKP is religious! Even in Turkey itself, mainly opposition-minded people, following the West (or rather, at the West's prompting), accuse the AKP and Erdogan personally of Islamism. At the same time, none of them apparently think to call the CDU a Christian, religious party.
This is all nonsense.
This is done specifically in order to have a pretext for putting pressure on Turkey if necessary.

 

[Rooxbar]

The AKP is an Islamist party - this cliche was invented in the West. When Erdogan did not object to the West on any issue concerning foreign policy, they praised him; during the "Arab Spring" the West even presented Erdogan's Turkey as an example to Muslim countries. But when Erdogan began to pursue a foreign policy independent from the West, they began to brand him as an Islamist, an authoritarian leader, sometimes even a dictator. Note: the German Christian Democratic Party is not a religious party, but the AKP is religious! Even in Turkey itself, mainly opposition-minded people, following the West (or rather, at the West's prompting), accuse the AKP and Erdogan personally of Islamism. At the same time, none of them apparently think to call the CDU a Christian, religious party.
This is all nonsense.

Christianity and Islam are very different religions with societies which have gone through very divergent evolutionary trajectories. In late 18th century and early 19th century almost all of the West was very religious, but Ottoman thinkers and diplomats who start commenting on European political systems contemporaneously, the likes of Mehmed Emin Efendi, Ebubekir Ratib Efendi, Ibrahim Muteferrika, and later Mustafa Reshid Pasha, Ahmed Cevdet and Namık Kemal point out as a great defect of the European monarchs and their legal systems that it's a godless system and that it's not based on "shariah"; the excessive amounts of cultural products (plays, music, festivities, novels) which, in the face of it, go against all that is Christian but is consumed by some and tolerated by most during those times is also another sign of this difference in society-wide outlook towards religion, religious law, religious text and religious authority.

Islamism is not an abstract concept borne out of a vacuum, the essence of which can be captured in its definition. It has a history and it is through the lens of this history that it's examined. Included in this history is the social classes, the ideals and cultural atmosphere from which its actors originate from, and the capacities that such a group of people has and could have had.

I can imagine a society and a historical trajectory which would have made Islamism a potent, sophisticated, shrewd and rational outlook emanating from a dynamic urban middle class Muslim culture; the world we live in is not that world.

Obviously the West has no problem with AKP's islamism, that's just a tool to propagandize and prime their population and elites to adopt hostile attitudes. If their problem was with Islamism, they wouldn't fund Saudi schools, mujahideen, gulen, akp itself and the green belt.

Our problem with Islamism and AKP, which went hand in hand with the Islamism of its allies in Gulen movement for the bigger part of their rule, is not as Hablemitoglu once said, because of the West but in spite of them, since whenever they have backed Islamists we have opposed them.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I don't think that Christianity and Islam or Judaism are so different from each other because all these religions have the Abrahamic origin.
The problem with Christianity in its present form is, regardless of whether it is the correct doctrine or not.
That it is not followed correctly or generally does not even follow the principles as they should be according to the Bible.
Love your neighbor as yourself, do not covet things that belong to others, etc. Even the classic things like you are not allowed to eat pork meat in Christianity according to the Bible, but still at least 95% of these people do and if you ask very devout Christians why they do not follow their teachings of their own religion correctly, they answer that this rule XY is already outdated and you live in a different time because their books are the copy of the copy of the copy with time it has been changed who knows how many times.
Or even worse, Europeans no longer follow anything, and therefore no teachings or religions.
Even that wouldn't be so bad if they at least had respect for human life regardless of where they come from and what color their skin or religion is.

Islam as practiced today is not innocent either, at least in the ultra orthodox/Islamist form, in some parts of the Islamic world the people are deliberately kept stupid to make it easier for those in power to control the people.
If you consider that Islamic culture, when it is positively controlled, has greatly influenced astronomy, philosophy, mathematics and even medicine in the world and Europe has transferred and improved a large part of these scientific achievements to itself and rediscovered science through the Renaissance, Islam has got stuck somewhere not because the religion itself is or was a dead end but as long as all these sultans, Sheikhs and tribal leaders were in power, they kept their people at the bottom and stupid, not thinking or questioning and exploring, instead of improving and developing humanity, it has regressed and religion is certainly not to blame for this but the rulers who perverted or bent these rules to suit them. or bent them to suit them.
I say God wants humanity to evolve and the destiny of humanity is to reach for the stars and explore other worlds and colonize them.

 

[GoatsMilk]

The AKP is an Islamist party - this cliche was invented in the West. When Erdogan did not object to the West on any issue concerning foreign policy, they praised him; during the "Arab Spring" the West even presented Erdogan's Turkey as an example to Muslim countries. But when Erdogan began to pursue a foreign policy independent from the West, they began to brand him as an Islamist, an authoritarian leader, sometimes even a dictator. Note: the German Christian Democratic Party is not a religious party, but the AKP is religious! Even in Turkey itself, mainly opposition-minded people, following the West (or rather, at the West's prompting), accuse the AKP and Erdogan personally of Islamism. At the same time, none of them apparently think to call the CDU a Christian, religious party.
This is all nonsense.
This is done specifically in order to have a pretext for putting pressure on Turkey if necessary.

Islamism today is mostly a major tool used by the enemies of Islam to undermine, control and if required destroy Muslim majority societies. AK party along with their FETO buddies are the very definition of Islamists. If you pay attention, one their hallmarks is turning the nation in on itself. This has taken place in Turkiye where incrementally they attack everything Turkish, while they promote everything against Turkish interests like the heavy promotion of Kurdish nationalism/terrorism. Patriots like the various soldiers are thrown in jail, meanwhile PKK, Islamist terrorists any shithead whose against Turkishness can roam freely within the state. Just like in Europe now, if your against Turkiye all the doors will open to you. Defend Turkiye and the system will isolate you.

Let me focus on FETO as just one example of the western(euro-origin) poison that is "political Islam" or rather just Islamists. For years I used to argue with people that these guys are traitors, enemies of the republic, enemies of the Turkish race and above all enemies of Islam. Their media like daily zaman would even run with articles telling Turks we should come to terms with the unproven and one sided allegations of genocides we supposedly committed on the armenians, kurds, greeks, assyrians, whatever minority they could come up with. It would hide behind Islam, it would divert Muslims by claiming it wasn't the Ottomans it was the western Young Turks and Ataturk. And as good Muslims we must come to terms with their pain and condemn the "Nationalist Turks, the secularists". Just like the kurdish islamist uprising against Ataturk was instigated by the British, these traitors are turned into national heroes.

When I say destroy that is not hyperbolic the accusations of genocides and atrocities is used to delegitimise Turkish sovereignty while legitimising the territorial expansionist aims of our neighbours. Today when you hit the PKK the entire international news spectrum says your killing "Kurds" to imply the Turkish states war against Kurds. Every single avenue does this now, despite the millions of islamists out there, we see no efforts anywhere from them to defend the Turkish position.

The common Muslim was brainwashed to believe that "political islamists" were his friends and allies, meanwhile actual Turks, patriots were enemies of Islam and by extension them. I don't want repeat all the details.

Anyway fast forward and the western backed and financed political islamists have a split, overnight those same FETO terrorists, so called Muslims, so called pushing for the revival of an Islamic state, the Ummah boys, become the most openly hostile entity on earth against Turkiye. They become the most ardent propogandists of accusing Turkiye of turning into an islamo-fascist state that murders its minorities. When they had the nation fooled they were the good pious muslims working towards neo-Ottomanism. They were all about Islam and Muslims, in reality they were the greatest danger and threat to Muslims.

Islamists and Political Islam is being used to destroy not just Turkiye but the entire region. As for the Kurds, the plan is to separate them and then eventually the euro-origin power will move in and destroy them the same way the Palestinians are being destroyed today. The Turkish state is being destroyed and political islam has been the biggest reason for that, your all fooling yourselves if you think ceeding autonomy, opening the nation to millions of refugees, while undermining everything Turkish is going to lead to a strong nation. Your being set up for the complete destruction of the state. I give it 50 years max. Minorities would do well to learn from history once the Turks lost the strength to keep the white man out. And remember while they promote the PKK and Kurds against Turkiye, when it came to Kurds crossing the border in Poland it turned into protecting Europe's borders and keeping the evil brown savage out.

As a Muslim first and a Turk second, "Political Islam" is the greatest threat facing my people. Its the greatest threat facing Islamic civilisation and why is that? Because nearly all serious political islamist organisations are western created and ran. But it makes sense if im american and i want to screw muslims, im going to give them Muslim/Islamist leaders. Thats how the game works, they deceive you according to what you believe.