Korea Gas-Turbine and Jet-Propulsion programs

[Rodeo]

What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?

 

[Chocopie]

Hanwha Aerospace (former Hanwha Techwin) is the sole turbofan and turboshaft engine manufacturer in Korea:

Hanwha Aerospace powers up engine capabilities

As the country's only producer of gas tubine engines, South Korea's Hanwha Aerospace has become an integral part of Seoul's ambitions in the sector, with involvement in several key propulsion programmes.

www.flightglobal.com

There are not many official infos about turbine engine projects: until 2025 DAPA plans to develop a low bypass turbofan-engine for unspecified UAVs (stealth UAVs or Loyal Wingman for KF-21 maybe). Specs are pure speculation, unfounded rumors of different numbers from 6,000-12,000 lb dry thrust …

 

[Kedikesenfare]

What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?

I have two questions on my mind:

Does it make sense to team up with Korea to build a reliable turbine engine?

Even more, couldn't Türkiye and South Korea join hands in developing a 6th gen fighter jet?

 

[Rodeo]

I have two questions on my mind:

Does it make sense to team up with Korea to build a reliable turbine engine?

Even more, couldn't Türkiye and South Korea join hands in developing a 6th gen fighter jet?

If we had an aircraft development programs with similar power requirements, then it would be logical to team up and share the risks.

Your last question is only meaningful maybe after a decade. Right now, it's too early for sixth gen aircraft discussion. We don't even know how to define sixth gen yet.

 

[Windchime]

What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?

Korean gas turbine developments are more focused on industry gas turbines. More to that later.

Talking about aero gas turbine developments are comparable to that of Türkiye. Research started in the 80s in conjunction with cruise missile turbojets. Akin to how Peace Onyx and F110 license production played an important role in gas turbine technology in Türkiye, license production of F100, F110, T700, F404 were vital experiences for Korea. These were done by Samsung Techwin which is Hanwha Aerospace today.

In terms of indigenous development, history could be traced back to the aforementioned turbojet engine. Technical assistance came from the French. Several types of turbojet engines were developed for Korean anti ship missiles and surface to surface cruise missiles. Development of a 3000 Ibf class core-engine was started in 2013 and was completed in 2019. This core engine is part of the development program for a 5500 Ibf class low-bypass military turbofan engine based on that core design until 2025. The thrust levels were later up-rated into 6000 Ibf.

I don't know if it's just a coincidence or if there were some unknown cooperation under the table, but the 6000 Ibf turbofan has identical design composition to the TF6000, as it has 2 Blisk wide chord fans followed by 6 HPC and a single HPT and a single LPT, just like the TF6000. Maybe TEI took some hints (once again, this program was started in 2013, years before TF6000). Just like how Türkiye is considering the application of TF6000 in MIUS and TISU, said 6000 Ibf engine is planned for application into the KUS-X and the Korean wingman drone. They're considering a 10000 Ibf class high bypass variant for a future HALE drone design fitted with a composite fan instead of the 2 stage WCF of current design, as well as an afterburning variant for research purposes.

They've been running the test program of the core engine for years now and are implementing incremental improvements to the design. When the development of the core engine started, the development goal was a TIT comparable to TS1400. There are research programs of individual components that are running in parallel with the engine development program. These are indicative of current underlying technology levels.

As of now they are using current technologies like YSZ coated with EBPVD. Development goals are TBC technology of less than 0.5W/mk by the mid 2020s, in part achieved with help of new suspension vacuum plasma adhesion technology. By 2020 they've demonstrated 7-YSZ top-coat coated using SVP with a thermal conductivity of 0.8W/mk. In terms of turbine blade materials, current technology levels concerning singly crystal alloys are around 4 to 7 years apart the industry leaders in the US. SCB technologies are even further behind than that. Re-free SCBs are also being researched with current demonstration showing better creep levels compared to CMSX-4. SiC CMC blades are also part of the development and current products are 2nd gen CMCs. Apart from CMC, SiC fabrics are also part of the development. In terms of the turbine blade designs, the core engine turbines are 2-channel SCBs. Overall, they are aiming for a 1600 degree TIT by mid 2020s.

Now to the industrial gas turbines. This is straight forward since we could just take a look at current portfolio.

Gas Turbine Product Line-up : Gas Turbines for Power Generation : New Energy Solutions : Doosan Enerbility

Doosan Enerbility offers a product lineup ranging from small to large-sized gas turbines. We are also working on the development of hydrogen gas turbine technology, with the aim being to deliver both hydrogen dual-fuel and 100% hydrogen-fueled models.

www.doosanenerbility.com

Doosan DGT6-300H S1 is a H-class industrial gas turbine, constructed this year in Gimpo CHP plant. There's a H+ class model in development called 300H S1+ (also called S1U) and a further improved version called 300H S2, which is planned to be commercialized in 2024, also in Gimpo CHP plant. Gimpo CHP plant will be used as a proving ground for these new Korean industrial gas turbines. Post H-class related technologies with TIT of 1700 degree are being researched.

 

[Windchime]

What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?

To clarify, S1 was tested since a few years ago, at Doosan's testing facility in Changwon. This year's installation is an actual installation to the grid.

Obviously, there are clear differences in operating conditions and requirements between an aero engine and an industrial engine (the former is generally harsher and more difficult), but it's still indicative of Korean gas turbine developments.

 

[Rodeo]

Korean gas turbine developments are more focused on industry gas turbines. More to that later.

Talking about aero gas turbine developments are comparable to that of Türkiye. Research started in the 80s in conjunction with cruise missile turbojets. Akin to how Peace Onyx and F110 license production played an important role in gas turbine technology in Türkiye, license production of F100, F110, T700, F404 were vital experiences for Korea. These were done by Samsung Techwin which is Hanwha Aerospace today.

In terms of indigenous development, history could be traced back to the aforementioned turbojet engine. Technical assistance came from the French. Several types of turbojet engines were developed for Korean anti ship missiles and surface to surface cruise missiles. Development of a 3000 Ibf class core-engine was started in 2013 and was completed in 2019. This core engine is part of the development program for a 5500 Ibf class low-bypass military turbofan engine based on that core design until 2025. The thrust levels were later up-rated into 6000 Ibf.

I don't know if it's just a coincidence or if there were some unknown cooperation under the table, but the 6000 Ibf turbofan has identical design composition to the TF6000, as it has 2 Blisk wide chord fans followed by 6 HPC and a single HPT and a single LPT, just like the TF6000. Maybe TEI took some hints (once again, this program was started in 2013, years before TF6000). Just like how Türkiye is considering the application of TF6000 in MIUS and TISU, said 6000 Ibf engine is planned for application into the KUS-X and the Korean wingman drone. They're considering a 10000 Ibf class high bypass variant for a future HALE drone design fitted with a composite fan instead of the 2 stage WCF of current design, as well as an afterburning variant for research purposes.

They've been running the test program of the core engine for years now and are implementing incremental improvements to the design. When the development of the core engine started, the development goal was a TIT comparable to TS1400. There are research programs of individual components that are running in parallel with the engine development program. These are indicative of current underlying technology levels.

As of now they are using current technologies like YSZ coated with EBPVD. Development goals are TBC technology of less than 0.5W/mk by the mid 2020s, in part achieved with help of new suspension vacuum plasma adhesion technology. By 2020 they've demonstrated 7-YSZ top-coat coated using SVP with a thermal conductivity of 0.8W/mk. In terms of turbine blade materials, current technology levels concerning singly crystal alloys are around 4 to 7 years apart the industry leaders in the US. SCB technologies are even further behind than that. Re-free SCBs are also being researched with current demonstration showing better creep levels compared to CMSX-4. SiC CMC blades are also part of the development and current products are 2nd gen CMCs. Apart from CMC, SiC fabrics are also part of the development. In terms of the turbine blade designs, the core engine turbines are 2-channel SCBs. Overall, they are aiming for a 1600 degree TIT by mid 2020s.

Now to the industrial gas turbines. This is straight forward since we could just take a look at current portfolio.

Gas Turbine Product Line-up : Gas Turbines for Power Generation : New Energy Solutions : Doosan Enerbility

Doosan Enerbility offers a product lineup ranging from small to large-sized gas turbines. We are also working on the development of hydrogen gas turbine technology, with the aim being to deliver both hydrogen dual-fuel and 100% hydrogen-fueled models.

www.doosanenerbility.com

Doosan DGT6-300H S1 is a H-class industrial gas turbine, constructed this year in Gimpo CHP plant. There's a H+ class model in development called 300H S1+ (also called S1U) and a further improved version called 300H S2, which is planned to be commercialized in 2024, also in Gimpo CHP plant. Gimpo CHP plant will be used as a proving ground for these new Korean industrial gas turbines. Post H-class related technologies with TIT of 1700 degree are being researched.

phew.. that was highly-concentrated, tightly-packed information. i needed to read it three times to fully absorb it.

can you share some links to these projects? the engine programs and the drone programs. and is Korean MIC as willing to share progress as the Turkish ones? We are bombarded by our companies with information almost everyday. But some other countries are more secretive about their projects and progress. how is that like with your companies? If they're not so hush-hush, maybe we should open threads for different branchs of the industry(for sensors, propulsion systems, drones etc.)?

 

[Windchime]

Does it make sense to team up with Korea to build a reliable turbine engine?

Like I've said, the TF6000 and the Korean 6000 Ibf turbofan are extremely similar in terms of composition. Though a cooperation is a whole different story in terms of hurdles to overcome.

What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?

Apart from aforementioned developments, Hanwha is also part of various civil gas turbine programs, the most recent being RSP in the PW GTF project (worth 3.8 billion dollars). As a RSP, they are given exclusive rights to supply GTF (now called PW1000G) Integrally Bladed Rotor and Middle Turbine Frame. Though being a RSP meant some considerable R&D costs for the program which meant losses for Hanwha Aero since 2017. Now that PW1000G is out in the market R&D costs have decreased and Revenue should've increased, but Covid didn't really help with Hanwha's case. Fortunately, Hanwha's a giant conglomerate which means the losses from Hanwha Aerospace could be covered up from other subsidiaries of the group. Also PW1000G related revenue stream is only expected to grow. Current forecasts expect a profit margine break-through in 2028 for the GTF program. This was delayed from 2025 due to COVID. Before GTF RSP, Hanwha Techwin or then Samsung Techwin was also part of few other civilian programs as RSP but none of them were in scale of GTF RSP.

Apart from the RSP programs, Hanwha has LTA supplier contracts with all major gas turbine manufacturers, in the order of PW, RR and GE and is a tier 1 supplier for all of them. One of the LTA supplier contract is for the HPT of the PW1000G. Total order backlog for the part supply LTA was around 2 billion dollars as of 2021.

 

[Windchime]

phew.. that was highly-concentrated, tightly-packed information. i needed to read it three times to fully absorb it.

can you share some links to these projects? the engine programs and the drone programs. and is Korean MIC as willing to share progress as the Turkish ones? We are bombarded by our companies with information almost everyday. But some other countries are more secretive about their projects and progress. how is that like with your companies? If they're not so hush-hush, maybe we should open threads for different branchs of the industry(for sensors, propulsion systems, drones etc.)?

Unfortunately, there are no links to those programs since the Koreans aren't really publicly promoting their programs unlike TEI (Hanwha Aerospace website barely promotes their own gas turbine programs). Those information are collection of data from research papers/thesis of the government funded research programs (most of them by Korea Institute of Materials Science (KIMS)). I can give you some links to the electronic library/academic db for Korean research papers, but they are all in Korean and are PDF which would be hard for you to translate. Also I'll need time to find them again. Overall, these papers are from 2015~2020 period, which wouldn't necessarily represent current technology levels. In that sense, you guys are lucky that TEI folks very willingly provide you information about their developments. Though on the other hand, you could generally find necessary information since Korean academic DBs are very well organized and conclusive. Also since they are academic papers, they are highly detailed in terms of its technical contents.

Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines. I'm not really sure how I could put those technologies in perspective in comparison to current cutting-edge of GE and RR. I could say it's around the level achieved by the US in late 80s and 90s. What are your thoughts Nilgiri? Would you be so kind to help me a bit?

ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.

 

[Rodeo]

Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines.

He is a senior engineer at PW(Pratt and Whitney). I'm not sure if you could find a more qualified person on turbine engines on the internet.

ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.

I'm not really well-read in the academia. Maybe @Bogeyman could help?

 

[Bogeyman]

Unfortunately, there are no links to those programs since the Koreans aren't really publicly promoting their programs unlike TEI (Hanwha Aerospace website barely promotes their own gas turbine programs). Those information are collection of data from research papers/thesis of the government funded research programs (most of them by Korea Institute of Materials Science (KIMS)). I can give you some links to the electronic library/academic db for Korean research papers, but they are all in Korean and are PDF which would be hard for you to translate. Also I'll need time to find them again. Overall, these papers are from 2015~2020 period, which wouldn't necessarily represent current technology levels. In that sense, you guys are lucky that TEI folks very willingly provide you information about their developments. Though on the other hand, you could generally find necessary information since Korean academic DBs are very well organized and conclusive. Also since they are academic papers, they are highly detailed in terms of its technical contents.

Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines. I'm not really sure how I could put those technologies in perspective in comparison to current cutting-edge of GE and RR. I could say it's around the level achieved by the US in late 80s and 90s. What are your thoughts Nilgiri? Would you be so kind to help me a bit?

ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.

He is a senior engineer at PW(Pratt and Whitney). I'm not sure if you could find a more qualified person on turbine engines on the internet.


I'm not really well-read in the academia. Maybe @Bogeyman could help?

Unfortunately, the article in my hand was written in Turkish.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sinan-Sal/publication/344609559_Gaz_Turbinli_Motorlarda_Radyal_Ice_Dogru_Akisli_Rotor-Stator_Bosluklarinin_HAD_Analizi_ile_Incelenmesi/links/5f84357fa6fdccfd7b5aad30/Gaz-Tuerbinli-Motorlarda-Radyal-Ice-Dogru-Akisli-Rotor-Stator-Bosluklarinin-HAD-Analizi-ile-Incelenmesi.pdf

 

[Nilgiri]

Unfortunately, there are no links to those programs since the Koreans aren't really publicly promoting their programs unlike TEI (Hanwha Aerospace website barely promotes their own gas turbine programs). Those information are collection of data from research papers/thesis of the government funded research programs (most of them by Korea Institute of Materials Science (KIMS)). I can give you some links to the electronic library/academic db for Korean research papers, but they are all in Korean and are PDF which would be hard for you to translate. Also I'll need time to find them again. Overall, these papers are from 2015~2020 period, which wouldn't necessarily represent current technology levels. In that sense, you guys are lucky that TEI folks very willingly provide you information about their developments. Though on the other hand, you could generally find necessary information since Korean academic DBs are very well organized and conclusive. Also since they are academic papers, they are highly detailed in terms of its technical contents.

Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines. I'm not really sure how I could put those technologies in perspective in comparison to current cutting-edge of GE and RR. I could say it's around the level achieved by the US in late 80s and 90s. What are your thoughts Nilgiri? Would you be so kind to help me a bit?

ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.

I will come to these interesting and informative posts you have made when I have a bit more time (unfortunately I will be quite occupied till after new years).

Please do find and post these papers in the interim if possible.

 

[Windchime]

This thread is a general thread for all Korean Gas-Turbine and air-breathing jet-propulsion related programs, both military and industrial, ranging from single-use cruise missile engines to manned and unmanned aircraft engines, ramjet and scramjet engines and natural gas power station turbines.

edit) moved relevant threads from the KF-21 thread

 

[AzeriTank]

any update?

 

[Windchime]

can you share some links to these projects?

Please do find and post these papers in the interim if possible.

Sorry, completely forgot about your requests for a good while. Was busy living my life. Though, here are some of the documents I've mentioned. Keep in mind that some of them are a few years old by now. It's a bit too long for me to translate the whole thing, but I hope machine translation will help.

 

[Windchime]

'첫 국산 가스터빈' 김포열병합 발전 개시 | 연합뉴스

(세종=연합뉴스) 차대운 기자 = 한국서부발전은 31일 경기도 김포열병합발전소에서 발전 개시 기념행사를 열고 국산 가스터빈을 처음으로 전력계통에...

www.yna.co.kr

첫 국산 터빈 단 김포열병합발전소 상업운전 시작했다 | 한국일보

한국서부발전은 28일 첫 국산 발전용 가스터빈으로 지은 경기 김포시 김포열병합발전소가 상업 운전에 들어갔다고 31일 밝혔다. 국내에 공급된 발전용 가스터빈은 모두 해외 제품을 수입하거나, 해외 기술을 토대로 국내에서 제품을 만들었다. 김포열병합발전소가 상업운전을 시작하면서 우리나라는 미국, 독일, 일본, 이탈리아에 이어 세계 다섯 번째로 대형 발전용 가

m.hankookilbo.com

Doosan DGT6-300H gas turbine installed in Gimpo plant started commercial operation.

 

[Windchime]

any update?

5,500 lbf engine ground testing of the first prototype started. 3 more prototypes to enter testing campaign in 6 months interval.

Underlying technology development for engine performance upgrade are under development since late 2020 in parallel to the prototype engine development and testing. Key focus is on increasing TIT and operating pressure of the 5,500 lbf engine. Program will continue till 2027.

Long-term roadmap program to develop F414-class engine with higher dry-thrust was also revealed. Primarily application will be the Korean stealth UCAVs. This engine will also be the basis of the engine that will power the next-generation fighter program that will come after KF-X.

 

[Nilgiri]

Sorry, completely forgot about your requests for a good while. Was busy living my life. Though, here are some of the documents I've mentioned. Keep in mind that some of them are a few years old by now. It's a bit too long for me to translate the whole thing, but I hope machine translation will help.

Judging from the sources listed and the data published, the Koreans are making good strides in underlying materials research.

The laboratory capacity is very good to achieve some of the results I can see.

That is the only way to mature the whole field from inside-out as possible....as the scientists, researchers and engineers all have to know what is involved in charting the decision tree (the forks in the road and how to pick and hedge whats in front of you from experience) and leave the solid paper trail of that for those that follow.

Doing so is long term much better than simply using another's decision/progress tree basis and not know fundamentally why route A was picked over B or C upstream. i.e expediently saving time in short term but you hit obstacles eventually because complications always arise (especially in this field) that need feedback from the earlier stuff that needed to be done in raw and broad way with mistakes and dead ends (some are not really dead ends) all logged and networked in database of know-how.

So its good that is slogging it out so to speak....the results will prove advantageous in 10, 20 year blocks of time.

S. Korea has done this in other fields (shipbuilding, heavy engineering, automotive, semiconductors et al. which you probably know about more than I do), so it is matter of applying the same process to this one over time.

In 2022, S. Korea has surpassed Japan in materials science and engineering raw paper outputs:

SJR - International Science Ranking

www.scimagojr.com

SJR - International Science Ranking

www.scimagojr.com

Of course papers all have different content weight from each other (PRC is notorious for some level of re-quoting inflation here from my experience), but checking a few trends over time and also realised IP earnings, trade flows etc, there is good basis to predict S. Korea relative success with time in this gas turbine+jet engine field too.