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I have two questions on my mind:What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?
If we had an aircraft development programs with similar power requirements, then it would be logical to team up and share the risks.I have two questions on my mind:
Does it make sense to team up with Korea to build a reliable turbine engine?
Even more, couldn't Türkiye and South Korea join hands in developing a 6th gen fighter jet?
Korean gas turbine developments are more focused on industry gas turbines. More to that later.What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?
To clarify, S1 was tested since a few years ago, at Doosan's testing facility in Changwon. This year's installation is an actual installation to the grid.What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?
phew.. that was highly-concentrated, tightly-packed information. i needed to read it three times to fully absorb it.Korean gas turbine developments are more focused on industry gas turbines. More to that later.
Talking about aero gas turbine developments are comparable to that of Türkiye. Research started in the 80s in conjunction with cruise missile turbojets. Akin to how Peace Onyx and F110 license production played an important role in gas turbine technology in Türkiye, license production of F100, F110, T700, F404 were vital experiences for Korea. These were done by Samsung Techwin which is Hanwha Aerospace today.
In terms of indigenous development, history could be traced back to the aforementioned turbojet engine. Technical assistance came from the French. Several types of turbojet engines were developed for Korean anti ship missiles and surface to surface cruise missiles. Development of a 3000 Ibf class core-engine was started in 2013 and was completed in 2019. This core engine is part of the development program for a 5500 Ibf class low-bypass military turbofan engine based on that core design until 2025. The thrust levels were later up-rated into 6000 Ibf.
I don't know if it's just a coincidence or if there were some unknown cooperation under the table, but the 6000 Ibf turbofan has identical design composition to the TF6000, as it has 2 Blisk wide chord fans followed by 6 HPC and a single HPT and a single LPT, just like the TF6000. Maybe TEI took some hints (once again, this program was started in 2013, years before TF6000). Just like how Türkiye is considering the application of TF6000 in MIUS and TISU, said 6000 Ibf engine is planned for application into the KUS-X and the Korean wingman drone. They're considering a 10000 Ibf class high bypass variant for a future HALE drone design fitted with a composite fan instead of the 2 stage WCF of current design, as well as an afterburning variant for research purposes.
They've been running the test program of the core engine for years now and are implementing incremental improvements to the design. When the development of the core engine started, the development goal was a TIT comparable to TS1400. There are research programs of individual components that are running in parallel with the engine development program. These are indicative of current underlying technology levels.
As of now they are using current technologies like YSZ coated with EBPVD. Development goals are TBC technology of less than 0.5W/mk by the mid 2020s, in part achieved with help of new suspension vacuum plasma adhesion technology. By 2020 they've demonstrated 7-YSZ top-coat coated using SVP with a thermal conductivity of 0.8W/mk. In terms of turbine blade materials, current technology levels concerning singly crystal alloys are around 4 to 7 years apart the industry leaders in the US. SCB technologies are even further behind than that. Re-free SCBs are also being researched with current demonstration showing better creep levels compared to CMSX-4. SiC CMC blades are also part of the development and current products are 2nd gen CMCs. Apart from CMC, SiC fabrics are also part of the development. In terms of the turbine blade designs, the core engine turbines are 2-channel SCBs. Overall, they are aiming for a 1600 degree TIT by mid 2020s.
Now to the industrial gas turbines. This is straight forward since we could just take a look at current portfolio.
Gas Turbine Product Line-up : Gas Turbines for Power Generation : New Energy Solutions : Doosan Enerbility
Doosan Enerbility offers a product lineup ranging from small to large-sized gas turbines. We are also working on the development of hydrogen gas turbine technology, with the aim being to deliver both hydrogen dual-fuel and 100% hydrogen-fueled models.www.doosanenerbility.com
Doosan DGT6-300H S1 is a H-class industrial gas turbine, constructed this year in Gimpo CHP plant. There's a H+ class model in development called 300H S1+ (also called S1U) and a further improved version called 300H S2, which is planned to be commercialized in 2024, also in Gimpo CHP plant. Gimpo CHP plant will be used as a proving ground for these new Korean industrial gas turbines. Post H-class related technologies with TIT of 1700 degree are being researched.
Like I've said, the TF6000 and the Korean 6000 Ibf turbofan are extremely similar in terms of composition. Though a cooperation is a whole different story in terms of hurdles to overcome.Does it make sense to team up with Korea to build a reliable turbine engine?
Apart from aforementioned developments, Hanwha is also part of various civil gas turbine programs, the most recent being RSP in the PW GTF project (worth 3.8 billion dollars). As a RSP, they are given exclusive rights to supply GTF (now called PW1000G) Integrally Bladed Rotor and Middle Turbine Frame. Though being a RSP meant some considerable R&D costs for the program which meant losses for Hanwha Aero since 2017. Now that PW1000G is out in the market R&D costs have decreased and Revenue should've increased, but Covid didn't really help with Hanwha's case. Fortunately, Hanwha's a giant conglomerate which means the losses from Hanwha Aerospace could be covered up from other subsidiaries of the group. Also PW1000G related revenue stream is only expected to grow. Current forecasts expect a profit margine break-through in 2028 for the GTF program. This was delayed from 2025 due to COVID. Before GTF RSP, Hanwha Techwin or then Samsung Techwin was also part of few other civilian programs as RSP but none of them were in scale of GTF RSP.What's the experience and ambitions of SK in turbine engine development and manufacturing? Do you guys have any work in progress?
phew.. that was highly-concentrated, tightly-packed information. i needed to read it three times to fully absorb it.
can you share some links to these projects? the engine programs and the drone programs. and is Korean MIC as willing to share progress as the Turkish ones? We are bombarded by our companies with information almost everyday. But some other countries are more secretive about their projects and progress. how is that like with your companies? If they're not so hush-hush, maybe we should open threads for different branchs of the industry(for sensors, propulsion systems, drones etc.)?
He is a senior engineer at PW(Pratt and Whitney). I'm not sure if you could find a more qualified person on turbine engines on the internet.Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines.
ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.
Unfortunately, there are no links to those programs since the Koreans aren't really publicly promoting their programs unlike TEI (Hanwha Aerospace website barely promotes their own gas turbine programs). Those information are collection of data from research papers/thesis of the government funded research programs (most of them by Korea Institute of Materials Science (KIMS)). I can give you some links to the electronic library/academic db for Korean research papers, but they are all in Korean and are PDF which would be hard for you to translate. Also I'll need time to find them again. Overall, these papers are from 2015~2020 period, which wouldn't necessarily represent current technology levels. In that sense, you guys are lucky that TEI folks very willingly provide you information about their developments. Though on the other hand, you could generally find necessary information since Korean academic DBs are very well organized and conclusive. Also since they are academic papers, they are highly detailed in terms of its technical contents.
Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines. I'm not really sure how I could put those technologies in perspective in comparison to current cutting-edge of GE and RR. I could say it's around the level achieved by the US in late 80s and 90s. What are your thoughts Nilgiri? Would you be so kind to help me a bit?
ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.
Unfortunately, the article in my hand was written in Turkish.He is a senior engineer at PW(Pratt and Whitney). I'm not sure if you could find a more qualified person on turbine engines on the internet.
I'm not really well-read in the academia. Maybe @Bogeyman could help?
Unfortunately, there are no links to those programs since the Koreans aren't really publicly promoting their programs unlike TEI (Hanwha Aerospace website barely promotes their own gas turbine programs). Those information are collection of data from research papers/thesis of the government funded research programs (most of them by Korea Institute of Materials Science (KIMS)). I can give you some links to the electronic library/academic db for Korean research papers, but they are all in Korean and are PDF which would be hard for you to translate. Also I'll need time to find them again. Overall, these papers are from 2015~2020 period, which wouldn't necessarily represent current technology levels. In that sense, you guys are lucky that TEI folks very willingly provide you information about their developments. Though on the other hand, you could generally find necessary information since Korean academic DBs are very well organized and conclusive. Also since they are academic papers, they are highly detailed in terms of its technical contents.
Also, maybe we could ask for some help from @Nilgiri to put what I've wrote above in perspective. He's the most knowledgeable person I know on the forum when it comes to gas turbines. I'm not really sure how I could put those technologies in perspective in comparison to current cutting-edge of GE and RR. I could say it's around the level achieved by the US in late 80s and 90s. What are your thoughts Nilgiri? Would you be so kind to help me a bit?
ps. can you tell me some Turkish academic DBs that I could use in the future? Until now I've relied on ResearchGate to search for English-languages research papers from Türkiye, which as you could imagine was very limited in scope.
can you share some links to these projects?
Please do find and post these papers in the interim if possible.
5,500 lbf engine ground testing of the first prototype started. 3 more prototypes to enter testing campaign in 6 months interval.any update?
Sorry, completely forgot about your requests for a good while. Was busy living my life. Though, here are some of the documents I've mentioned. Keep in mind that some of them are a few years old by now. It's a bit too long for me to translate the whole thing, but I hope machine translation will help.