Greek aircrafts locked on Turkish F16s conducting NATO mission in E.Med

Yasar_TR

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@Blackhawk
One very important point you may have overlooked is the difference between GaAs based and GaN based T/R modules. With more than 5-8 times more power output and receive sensitivity, GaN modules can fry opposing platforms’ standard radars as they are transmitting high powered microwave beams.
Apart from the new F/A18s , Tranche 4 E2000s and Gripen-E planes none of the other planes use GaN based technology in their Aesa radars.
Even the small Aesa radar in Akinci will have GaN based T/R modules. 1000+ T/R modules that an F16 Ozgur will have, is going to have much more power than a similarly numbered GaAs based AN-Apg83 on a V70 F16.
 

Kansei

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yes, you write your comments with such a perception and when you are reminded of truth, you cling to the lie of "denial", which is classical Greek discussion pattern. However the truths are more painful for you than your hearts can accept. You can't change this pain by buying 24 "savior" Rafales that have been finalized and don't forget that more than half of these Rafales are second hand.

Another matter is Rafale's inferior AESA radar. Everyone who has knowledge and experience in this matter says how inferior this radar is to its counterparts, not me. This radar is a modified variant of a PESA radar that has been converted to AESA. The 850 TRM number and announced range values of this radar are completely inferior to the equivalent AESA's. Due to these features, the resolution value is also lower than equivalent radars and thus many important features such as target detection range and time become inferior as well.

View attachment 47336

Probably because you don't follow this forum, you don't know any place other than your own cave. All Turkish aircraft are active in combat fleet and the Turkish AESA radar will have advanced features from RBE2 in many scopes. Not me but experts say that even the oldest variants of F16 will have the ability to fire domestic BVR missiles with an engagement range of over 100km with this radar. More than half of the current fleet has already been modernized with CCIP + PESA. The remaining Block-30 aircraft and newly purchased Block-50+s were excluded from the scope of CCIP.

So in the current situation, Turkey keeps 1,5x more active fleet than you and upgrading them with state of art new technologies and requesting new purchases that US promised to give and developing own fighter aircrafts and fighter drones and long range missiles at the same time so your inflated self-confidence will cause you serious problems. Nothing changes with the purchase of 24 Rafale or planning to purchase 20 F35 for future because as I said, the superiority of a weapon does not mean that you can gain a superiority. Here, the secret factors of domestic systems and the surprise effect come into play. Turkey knows better than you what RBE2 can do because Qatar Rafale aircrafts have been tested in Turkey for months. In this context, do you have any idea about the measures taken by the domestic industry? No, but it is known by the Turkish army what capacity you have. That's why your imaginary superiority masturbations will only lead you to disaster. 🤫
Ahahaha okay buddy thanks for verified to me that you are clueless on the subject. T/R modules aren’t all the same and very importantly the reason the Rafale has so little is because of size not technology. If you notice the nose of the Rafale is way smaller than most aircraft and that’s the maximum size it can handle, that’s why even the Tejas uses it, so no it’s not a technology problem it’s a size one, just shows how much you know with “oh it has less so it worse”.

>”Turkey knows better than you what RBE2 can do because Qatar Rafale aircrafts have been tested in Turkey for months. In this context, do you have any idea about the measures taken by the domestic industry?”
Ahaha yeah okay buddy sure, just because you studied the radar for a few months that somehow means you can make a superior radar to that cause that’s obviously how stuff goes, just study something that took years and billions to make for a few months and anything can make better.I’m guess that’s the logic with the TF-X used.

>”Nothing changes with the purchase of 24 Rafale or planning to purchase 20 F35 for future because as I said, the superiority of a weapon does not mean that you can gain a superiority.”
Ok and ? You’re not really saying anything just “haha just because you have better weapons doesn’t mean you are better” and then just leave it like that. That’s like whatever you tell me I just responds “yes but that doesn’t mean you are right”. That’s just a statement not an argument.
>”More than half of the current fleet has already been modernized with CCIP + PESA. The remaining Block-30 aircraft and newly purchased Block-50+s were excluded from the scope of CCIP.”
From what I know while the original LOA for the CCIP program was for all aircraft but in actuality only 117 passed it and from articles I’ve read özgur is being considered for the Block 40s too so yeah it’s not just the remaining block-30 and Block-50+s because you’re Block 40s alone are 117.
>”You can't change this pain by buying 24 "savior" Rafales that have been finalized and don't forget that more than half of these Rafales are second hand.”
Ok…and?
Most of this reply is addressing how I told you that all of these are statements and assumptions about the success of paper projects and unlike the equipment Greece bought/will buy which is by reputable companies with tried and proven technologies and results, Turkey not only isn’t as tried and proven, but THE FUTURE PROJECTS THAT ARENR EVEN OUT are better and you talk with such arrogance like your comparing Neolithic technology to yours. Also can you like please stop with this conductive and hateful way of speaking, I understand being mean or angry or cocky but you’re speaking like you are writing a manifesto and half of your reply sounds like what a edgelord 12 year old would write, no offence.
 

Kansei

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@Blackhawk
One very important point you may have overlooked is the difference between GaAs based and GaN based T/R modules. With more than 5-8 times more power output and receive sensitivity, GaN modules can fry opposing platforms’ standard radars as they are transmitting high powered microwave beams.
Apart from the new F/A18s , Tranche 4 E2000s and Gripen-E planes none of the other planes use GaN based technology in their Aesa radars.
Even the small Aesa radar in Akinci will have GaN based T/R modules. 1000+ T/R modules that an F16 Ozgur will have, is going to have much more power than a similarly numbered GaAs based AN-Apg83 on a V70 F16.
That is true. Cooling is a big limitations in radars and the only liquid cooled F-16 was the Block 60 that had huge improvements but extremely costly as it wasn’t just a simple upgrade but they had to change the subframe and beams and completely modify the F-16 from factory. The gripen from what I know is only in tasting face and so is the euro fighter. I talked with one of the authors of the https://www.researchgate.net/public...em_to_Detect_and_Track_Low_Observable_Threats study and he didn’t really go in depth since I asked a couple of other questions to but he said from his knowledge there are no fighter jets with a GaN based radar and that from what he knows the furthest program that exist is the APG-79(V4) for the older F/A 18. When I asked him about the fact of if we should have waited before getting the viper Block 70 program and wait for the GaN technology to catch up he didn’t really seem to take it serious and said that he doesn’t really believe it’s an important handicap and there are a ton more stuff that should be done for way cheaper and sooner with more results
 

Test7

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Dear members,

We think other members 'll enjoy reading your informative posts and ideas. Please make sure that the posts you write do not violate the rules.
 

Yasar_TR

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Re: GaN based Aesa radars

Saab offers Gripen E with GaN based Aesa radar. Same is offered to those who wish to upgrade the radar on Gripen C. Current Raven Radar has GaAs modules. But they have integrated the GaN based radar to the plane for customers who will go for it.

New UK Typhoons will use ECRS MK2 Leonardo hybrid radar. This consists of both GaAs and GaN T/R modules on the same radar.


F/A 18 marine-corps planes have already flown with GaN based Aesa radars.
 

Blackhawk

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Ahahaha okay buddy thanks for verified to me that you are clueless on the subject. T/R modules aren’t all the same and very importantly the reason the Rafale has so little is because of size not technology. If you notice the nose of the Rafale is way smaller than most aircraft and that’s the maximum size it can handle, that’s why even the Tejas uses it, so no it’s not a technology problem it’s a size one, just shows how much you know with “oh it has less so it worse”.


Of course it has to do with size and so it has much less TRM than its counterparts but that has a consequence. As a result, the number of modules that skip frequency is low in per second, the scanning/receiver sensors in per second are less than their counterparts and accordingly, the volume scanned in unit time is smaller than their counterparts and the resolution is lower.

If there is no difference between 800 TrM and 1300TRM, then why don't the manufacturers make a radar with 10 TRM with low electric consunption and integrate it into their aircraft with same performance? If there will be no change in performance, why is it doing million-dollar R&D to compress and cool these modules into as narrow a space as possible which each module consume electricity like crazy produced on the plane and need crazy engineering asset to coole each of them? You know the answer! Don't make me tell each details...
Greek clowns usually get angry when their "savior" named Rafale is mentioned bad and their anger increases as you remind them of the truth but when you see that your savior is not working properly against a steel strong army, you cry for help again.

Ahaha yeah okay buddy sure, just because you studied the radar for a few months that somehow means you can make a superior radar to that cause that’s obviously how stuff goes, just study something that took years and billions to make for a few months and anything can make better.I’m guess that’s the logic with the TF-X used.


I didn't mention checking features of Qatari RBE2 and developing a better radar based on this experience but on all cases both way are true. You can be sure that liquied cooled GaN AESA called Murad developed by Turkey, will perform much better as it will be developed on the basis of a much more effective semi-conductor, as mentioned by @Yasar but what I was talking about was actually electronic warfare techniques.

Ahh sorry, Greeks have already figured out what electronic warfare sensors are for them, with 3km range system they bought from Israel to prevent Turkish drones. 🤪 When you are a technology ignorant nation, such incidents will happen to you frequently. The collection of such radar emissions is an important issue for Turkey, since Turkey is among the influential players in the world with its AESA-based technology in the field of electronic attack. You are not aware of the developments, I think you need to follow Turks more closely in this forum. Your brain is watered by listening to fake news and propaganda in the Greek media. 😀


From what I know while the original LOA for the CCIP program was for all aircraft but in actuality only 117 passed it and from articles I’ve read özgur is being considered for the Block 40s too so yeah it’s not just the remaining block-30 and Block-50+s because you’re Block 40s alone are 117.

165+10 CCIP + 29 B50+ 38 B30
If you don't know, don't claim Greek. The truth is here. Turaf will have a combat fleet that is 1.5 times your size in all conditions and environments. With new technologies and acquisitions, as well as fighter drones, domestic fighters, these gaps will widen even more. Ultimately, when you look back, you will see a neighbor with a combat fleet that is 3-4 times the size of small Greece in all areas. 🤫

Most of this reply is addressing how I told you that all of these are statements and assumptions about the success of paper projects and unlike the equipment Greece bought/will buy which is by reputable companies with tried and proven technologies and results, Turkey not only isn’t as tried and proven, but THE FUTURE PROJECTS THAT ARENR EVEN OUT are better and you talk with such arrogance like your comparing Neolithic technology to yours. Also can you like please stop with this conductive and hateful way of speaking, I understand being mean or angry or cocky but you’re speaking like you are writing a manifesto and half of your reply sounds like what a edgelord 12 year old would write, no offence.

There's no problem when you talk about unsigned corvettes, extra frigates, F35s, or any other second hand item you've been begging for a while and see wet dreams. I am speaking about Hurjet whose prototypes are at the stage of mass production or about TFX which is planned to be delivered 14 unit in 2028 and one TFX is currently under assembly or from MIUS which is counting days for first flight or about Ramjet BVR which will start tests next year or about Gökdogan BVR which will be delivered until the end of this year, it's becoming like dreaming with paper projects for you? Ahh Greek sorry for your future generation. I hope they won't ve as ignorant as you are.

While I'm arguing, I like to highlight the tactics that other side uses to hide their helplessness. Actually, that's exactly what you did here. Since you always try to imitate what Turks do in your history, which is mixed with an inferiority complex and you always console yourself with stories of superiority, you usually choose to deny when such painful truths are written because this situation deepens your inferiority complex and you don't know what to do.

My advice to you is that if you can sign protection agreements with 5 more countries and use NATO as your own army, maybe you can go to bed feeling more secure. You can only console yourself with these fake superiority tales. 😁🤫
 
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Blackhawk

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That is true. Cooling is a big limitations in radars and the only liquid cooled F-16 was the Block 60 that had huge improvements but extremely costly as it wasn’t just a simple upgrade but they had to change the subframe and beams and completely modify the F-16 from factory. The gripen from what I know is only in tasting face and so is the euro fighter. I talked with one of the authors of the https://www.researchgate.net/public...em_to_Detect_and_Track_Low_Observable_Threats study and he didn’t really go in depth since I asked a couple of other questions to but he said from his knowledge there are no fighter jets with a GaN based radar and that from what he knows the furthest program that exist is the APG-79(V4) for the older F/A 18. When I asked him about the fact of if we should have waited before getting the viper Block 70 program and wait for the GaN technology to catch up he didn’t really seem to take it serious and said that he doesn’t really believe it’s an important handicap and there are a ton more stuff that should be done for way cheaper and sooner with more results


Ahh what a coincidence Yunan. The Turkish AESA radar is also GAN based liquid cooled state of art radar. 😁
 
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Kansei

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Of course it has to do with size and so it has much less TRM than its counterparts but that has a consequence. As a result, the number of modules that skip frequency is low in per second, the scanning/receiver sensors in per second are less than their counterparts and accordingly, the volume scanned in unit time is smaller than their counterparts and the resolution is lower.

If there is no difference between 800 TrM and 1300TRM, then why should the manufacturers make a radar with 10 TRM and integrate it into their aircraft? If there will be no change in performance, why is it doing million-dollar R&D to compress and cool these modules which consume electricity produced on the plane, into as narrow a space as possible? Greek clowns usually get angry when their savior named Rafale is mentioned bad and their anger increases as you remind them of the truth but when you see that your savior is not working properly against a steel strong army, you cry for help again.
Great all of this is goalpost shifting, just because something is smaller and has has less overall performance doesn't mean it's automatically its surpeior. If I have an new Inline 4 2.0 engines that has all of the new leading edge technologies today and makes 220 horsepower, making 110 hp/per liter and an old 5.0 V12 that makes 380 horsepower, making 76hp/per liter, is the V12 surperior ? Also again not all T/R modules are made the same, they vary on size and technology from company to company, you are comparing a 10-year old ready made test radar to again one that I am prettys sure is a non-public prototype, and not only are you comparing them as equals but gloating so hard as if it absolutly destroyd them already
165 CCIP + 39 B50+ 38 B30
If you don't know, don't claim Greek. The truth is here. Turaf will have a combat fleet that is 1.5 times your size in all conditions and environments. With new technologies and acquisitions, as well as fighter drones, domestic fighters, these gaps will widen even more. Ultimately, when you look back, you will see a neighbor with a combat fleet that is 3-4 times the size of small Greece in all areas.
All sourced i found including this one ( https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2015/04/12/turkey-receives-last-upgraded-f-16/) state 117, care do debunk it ?Also by combat fleet I am assuming you mean fighter jets and drones because if you mean plus everything else it gets messy to calculate and you only mentioned fighter jets in your reply. Wikipedia gives us a number of 245 F-16s for Tuaf. Greece has based on wikipedia has 145 F-16s + 24 Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 + 24 Rafale ( 12 as of january 2023 and I think the rest by the end of the year). Thats 196 aircraft. Now Turkey will have an extra numerical advantage with it's drones even though they can be offset a bit 3 Ηeron TP's and 26 quite ancient Pegasuses that supposedly can actually carry also a payload.Now if you 3-4 times the size in the future, if we look up until 2030 because any later would be uncertain and a bit to in the future, then Turkey at best will have its new trainer aircraft that in case of a war can be used as a fighter, which again can be a a bit offset by the M346 ,albeit with weaker radars, the huge giant drone alongside the number of other new drones and the start of delivery of the TF-X, while Greece will have 3 new seaguardians, a small number of Greek drones, 2 year head start delivery on the F-35 and even maybe possibly a new squadron of Rafale since no one stops in an order of just 24 and there is a lot of discussion in the Greek circles about a potential purchase but even without that I still dont 3x-4x times the fleet, even with drones and small trainer jets and even the. Plus there is still the matter of quality vs quantity, semi-currently even if lets say youre 38 Block 30 Ozgur will be better than block 70, then the rest of your "fleet" is still inferior to the entire Greek "fleet' excpet our 40 Block 30, the Greek fleet will be surperior with 40 Block 50+/70 ( the upgrade program will give them everything the 70 has except the radar), the 82 Block 72+ , the 25 Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and the 24 Rafale F3-R.
The rest of your comment is just you being vulgar and just repeating the same statements as facts.
 

Blackhawk

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Great all of this is goalpost shifting, just because something is smaller and has has less overall performance doesn't mean it's automatically its surpeior. If I have an new Inline 4 2.0 engines that has all of the new leading edge technologies today and makes 220 horsepower, making 110 hp/per liter and an old 5.0 V12 that makes 380 horsepower, making 76hp/per liter, is the V12 surperior ? Also again not all T/R modules are made the same, they vary on size and technology from company to company, you are comparing a 10-year old ready made test radar to again one that I am prettys sure is a non-public prototype, and not only are you comparing them as equals but gloating so hard as if it absolutly destroyd them already

I'm telling you why RBE-2 radar will be inferior to other equivalent radars and you are trying to defend yourself with absurd motor examples. I'm talking to you about consequences of a low number of TRM modules on a radar and you tell manufacturer company stories. To support my technical argument, I'm asking why companies don't manufacture and sell radars with 10TRM but try to fit as many modules as possible into small volumes but you leave my question unanswered. How else can I explain?


Look Greek, the issue is actually as simple as you can understand.

The module numbers has serious impact on accuracy and detection range of a radar. The more modules there are, the more accurately radar beam can be steered which gives a few important benefits:
  • Better resolution. Ability to detect more accurately direction of whatever the radar sees
  • More power per scanned area. When same energy is steered to narrower beam, than narrower beam has more energy per area, and further it can see the targets.

In overall, the radars with more TRM perform better in terms of resolution and detection ability and detection time on longer ranges. Period!
 

Blackhawk

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All sourced i found including this one ( https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2015/04/12/turkey-receives-last-upgraded-f-16/) state 117, care do debunk it ?Also by combat fleet I am assuming you mean fighter jets and drones because if you mean plus everything else it gets messy to calculate and you only mentioned fighter jets in your reply. Wikipedia gives us a number of 245 F-16s for Tuaf. Greece has based on wikipedia has 145 F-16s + 24 Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 + 24 Rafale ( 12 as of january 2023 and I think the rest by the end of the year). Thats 196 aircraft. Now Turkey will have an extra numerical advantage with it's drones even though they can be offset a bit 3 Ηeron TP's and 26 quite ancient Pegasuses that supposedly can actually carry also a payload.Now if you 3-4 times the size in the future, if we look up until 2030 because any later would be uncertain and a bit to in the future, then Turkey at best will have its new trainer aircraft that in case of a war can be used as a fighter, which again can be a a bit offset by the M346 ,albeit with weaker radars, the huge giant drone alongside the number of other new drones and the start of delivery of the TF-X, while Greece will have 3 new seaguardians, a small number of Greek drones, 2 year head start delivery on the F-35 and even maybe possibly a new squadron of Rafale since no one stops in an order of just 24 and there is a lot of discussion in the Greek circles about a potential purchase but even without that I still dont 3x-4x times the fleet, even with drones and small trainer jets and even the. Plus there is still the matter of quality vs quantity, semi-currently even if lets say youre 38 Block 30 Ozgur will be better than block 70, then the rest of your "fleet" is still inferior to the entire Greek "fleet' excpet our 40 Block 30, the Greek fleet will be surperior with 40 Block 50+/70 ( the upgrade program will give them everything the 70 has except the radar), the 82 Block 72+ , the 25 Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and the 24 Rafale F3-R.
The rest of your comment is just you being vulgar and just repeating the same statements as facts.

It is your right to know the truth. Although it is not what you dream of, it will be good for you to face the facts in the medium term.

10 F16 CCIP (LM upgraded)
149 F16 CCIP (Tusaş upgraded)
16 F16 CCIP (1. HBIK)
30 F16 Block50+ (PO4, a few of them crashed)
38 F16 Block 30
47 F4 2020

40 F16V (request)
80 F16V upgrade (request)

TFX-development
Hurjet AC/LCA-development
MIUS and TISU-development
Akinci and variants (bomber, radar, jammer)
TB2/TB3, Anka/Aksungur


Now, predict the fleet structure and shape of future Turkish Air Force 👍
 
M

Manomed

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Ahahaha okay buddy thanks for verified to me that you are clueless on the subject. T/R modules aren’t all the same and very importantly the reason the Rafale has so little is because of size not technology. If you notice the nose of the Rafale is way smaller than most aircraft and that’s the maximum size it can handle, that’s why even the Tejas uses it, so no it’s not a technology problem it’s a size one, just shows how much you know with “oh it has less so it worse”.

>”Turkey knows better than you what RBE2 can do because Qatar Rafale aircrafts have been tested in Turkey for months. In this context, do you have any idea about the measures taken by the domestic industry?”
Ahaha yeah okay buddy sure, just because you studied the radar for a few months that somehow means you can make a superior radar to that cause that’s obviously how stuff goes, just study something that took years and billions to make for a few months and anything can make better.I’m guess that’s the logic with the TF-X used.

>”Nothing changes with the purchase of 24 Rafale or planning to purchase 20 F35 for future because as I said, the superiority of a weapon does not mean that you can gain a superiority.”
Ok and ? You’re not really saying anything just “haha just because you have better weapons doesn’t mean you are better” and then just leave it like that. That’s like whatever you tell me I just responds “yes but that doesn’t mean you are right”. That’s just a statement not an argument.
>”More than half of the current fleet has already been modernized with CCIP + PESA. The remaining Block-30 aircraft and newly purchased Block-50+s were excluded from the scope of CCIP.”
From what I know while the original LOA for the CCIP program was for all aircraft but in actuality only 117 passed it and from articles I’ve read özgur is being considered for the Block 40s too so yeah it’s not just the remaining block-30 and Block-50+s because you’re Block 40s alone are 117.
>”You can't change this pain by buying 24 "savior" Rafales that have been finalized and don't forget that more than half of these Rafales are second hand.”
Ok…and?
Most of this reply is addressing how I told you that all of these are statements and assumptions about the success of paper projects and unlike the equipment Greece bought/will buy which is by reputable companies with tried and proven technologies and results, Turkey not only isn’t as tried and proven, but THE FUTURE PROJECTS THAT ARENR EVEN OUT are better and you talk with such arrogance like your comparing Neolithic technology to yours. Also can you like please stop with this conductive and hateful way of speaking, I understand being mean or angry or cocky but you’re speaking like you are writing a manifesto and half of your reply sounds like what a edgelord 12 year old would write, no offence.
Why did you guys cried to Nato about 30th august?

>Invade anatolia
>Loose
>cry about it being a genocide

Is this your agenda?

Izmir,istanbuli,Anatolia belongs to us now not to you.
1663335604258.png
 
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