Greece Navy Greek FDI HN frigates & Gowind class light frigates Programs

Foulgrim

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The price is a bit absurd, does it include 10+ years of maintenance for all components and the missiles with spares? Could be reasonable if it is covering these all.
This cost also includes the provision of training/armament with the possibility of their maintenance. I do not know how long this will be valid, but in theory five years per ship.
 
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The three separate contracts for the acquisition of the new French FDI HN frigates are expected to be submitted for approval at the end of December, with a prevailing date of 20 December.
The three contracts include
  • the three-year technical support contract,
  • the armaments and cargo ship contract
  • the contract with the Naval Group for the construction of the three frigates.

View attachment 37273

The cost of acquiring the three FDI HN frigates is 3.050 billion euros. The contracts will then be legally audited by the Court of Auditors and signed in January.

As confirmed by the French Ministry of Defense on Saturday and the spokesman, the two sides have reached the content of the final agreement and now remain formal procedures.

Such a cute frigate. 32 cell Aster 30 plus 21 RIM-116 . They also give the importance point defence as Aster30/15 Minumum range is limited.

We should also add two analog of RAM ( frontal and rear) our İ class as Germans do .

Also we should add two phalanx right and left sides as Royal Navy and PLAN do.
 

Akritas

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The FDI HN frigates (1 billion euros/ship) will not carry a STRALES defence system nor an ECM system except ESM. The Greek Navy had requested STRALES in other competing designs such as the American HF2 frigates and the Dutch SIGMA 11515HN frigates. The placement of STRALES on the FDI HN frigates was judged to be an unnecessary redundancy.
The systems could be installed in the future although this seems doubtful. Unfortunately this indicates that there will be a large operational gap in the ship's capabilities. If there is not
installed cyber war suite we will talk about a bad deal as it unfolds.
You are in a rush, it has not yet been made public what the FDI will eventually include .
Strales did not requested by the Hellenic Navy as recently Naval Group reveals.
Also your source said, that the Hellenic Navy has as CIWS the RAM 21cell and the Super Rapido of Leonardo.
As regards the ECM, new system to be developed first, and most importantly, the compartment as well as the wiring are provided to exist at the Greek FDI. French FDI will not have these.
 
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Foulgrim

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You are in a rush, it has not yet been made public what the FDI will eventually include .
Strales did not requested by the Hellenic Navy as recently Naval Group reveals.
Also your source said, that the Hellenic Navy has as CIWS the RAM 21cell and the Super Rapido of Leonardo.
As regards the ECM, new system to be developed first, and most importantly, the compartment as well as the wiring are provided to exist at the Greek FDI. French FDI will not have these.
I did not mention that the Hellenic Navy was asked to install the STRALES system. I just mentioned that, according to the recent communication of the magazine Flight and Space with the Naval Group, this system will not be installed in the Greek FDI HN. Now there is an official position from the company itself and i just mentioned it properly. The STRALES system is something that would be necessary as it is a new defense system with a better network-centric connection (to the rest of the warship weapons system) than the RAM Mk 49 system. Also a 21st century ship needs a multilayer shield. We are talking about a warship worth 1 billion euros! If the electronic countermeasure (ECM) does not exist in the FDI HN then we will talk about a negotiating disaster. I remind you that the French never installed a subsystem in a third country without having it in their assets! Also a shocking example from the recent past, as you will read from the source article, are the first Greek Mirage 2000EGM fighters where they came without the DCS (defensive countermeasures suite) ICMS2000mk1!
 

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Kozan S, a Turkish defence analyst have told in a interview. Greece navy shipyard is like hell. According to him even the Israellies who saw the mess of the shipyard they stopped the project. The project will go like this, France will deliver the ships and Greece will install the subsystems from France.

To give second live to your shipyard ther is a lot investment needed. If you had a shipyard it would cost you at least 200 million cehaper a ship :D .1 B and not EW suit.
 

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Kozan S, a Turkish defence analyst have told in a interview. Greece navy shipyard is like hell. According to him even the Israellies who saw the mess of the shipyard they stopped the project.
Israelis offer a corvette project, the "Themistocles" at ONEX Neorion Shipyards, based on the Israeli Navy Reshef-class corvette, also known as SA’AR 72 corvettes, that built in........Germany.

1640684477925.png

But Greece joined the European programme(PESCO) led by Italy and France to develop a modular, flexible corvette for maritime situational awareness, power projection, and surface superiority in January 2020. The first prototype of the European Patrol Corvette (EPC) is expected by 2027.

1640684531108.png


This is the reason why the Israeli project did not go ahead, and not the shipyard. Moroever, ONEX Neorion Shipyards that is currently the best in Greece.
 
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Foulgrim

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Israelis offer a corvette project, the "Themistocles" at ONEX Neorion Shipyards, based on the Israeli Navy Reshef-class corvette, also known as SA’AR 72 corvettes, that built in........Germany.

View attachment 37765
But Greece joined the European programme(PESCO) led by Italy and France to develop a modular, flexible corvette for maritime situational awareness, power projection, and surface superiority in January 2020. The first prototype of the European Patrol Corvette (EPC) is expected by 2027.

View attachment 37766

This is the reason why the Israeli project did not go ahead, and not the shipyard. Moroever, ONEX Neorion Shipyards that is currently the best in Greece.
Italy, France and Spain have expressed interest in building 20 European Patrol Corvettes. These ships are distributed 8 in Italy, 6 in France and 6 in Spain. Unfortunately, Greece has not yet determined how many ships it wants to build. This ship does not even exist as a prototype as it will be built in 2026-2027. Their cost will be relatively low, ie 300 million euros for the first warship and 250 million euros for the other warships that will join. But it is something future that for the Greek Navy will take shape at the end of the current decade or the beginning of the next. Themistocles corvettes were from the beginning a plan without a future as they were based on a ship design that has not even been completed (Sa'ar 72)! The shipyard in Syros could not support such a project with the existing infrastructure.
 
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Akritas

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The shipyard in Syros could not support such a project with the existing infrastructure.
There is no shipyard in Naxos.
Italy, France and Spain have expressed interest in building 20 European Patrol Corvettes. These ships are distributed 8 in Italy, 6 in France and 6 in Spain. Unfortunately, Greece has not yet determined how many ships it wants to build. This ship does not even exist as a prototype as it will be built in 2026-2027. Their cost will be relatively low, ie 300 million euros for the first warship and 250 million euros for the other warships that will join.
For this reason, Hellenic Navy requested corvettes that are not just designs, but have been constructed in order to bridge the time gap until the final production of the EPC.
 
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Foulgrim

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There is no shipyard in Naxos.

For this reason, Hellenic Navy requested corvettes that are not just designs, but have been constructed in order to bridge the time gap until the final production of the EPC.
I mean Syros.....
The purchases of corvettes that will be made by the Greek Navy will not concern ships that will be designed and built in Greece. The point is that there was something of Greek design and construction, not to buy something from abroad once again.
 
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Akritas

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One of the certainties that have been learned about the Greek FDI, is that it will notably supply with the ASTER 30 B1 missiles.
The Aster 30 SAMP/T (sol-air moyenne portée terrestre or surface-to-air medium range / land) is a air defence system effective against high-speed threats such as tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, combat aircraft and UCAVs (unmanned combat air vehicles).
Weight : 450 kg
Lenght : 4.9 m
Diameter: 180 mm
Range : In excess of 120 km

1640812986982.png


 
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Akritas

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This mean...
  • up to 32 ASTER-30 surface-to-air missile
  • 21-cell launcher of RAM Block 2B surface-to-air missiles
  • 8 Exocet MM-40 Block 3
  • 2 EuroTorp MU90 Impact torpedoes
  • Canto decoys system
  • Oto Melara 76 mm Super Rapid gun(mounted in stealth cupola)
  • 2 × 20 mm remotely operated guns
  • 1 SDAM UAV Alpha 900
  • 1 MH-60R equipped with MK 54 Torpedoes and Hellfire air-to-surface missiles
 
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Oublious

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This mean...
  • up to 32 ASTER surface-to-air missile
  • 21-cell launcher of RAM Block 2B surface-to-air missiles
  • 8 Exocet MM-40 Block 3
  • 2 EuroTorp MU90 Impact torpedoes
  • Canto decoys system
  • Oto Melara 76 mm Super Rapid gun(mounted in stealth cupola)
  • 2 × 20 mm remotely operated guns
  • 1 SDAM UAV Alpha 900
  • 1 MH-60R equipped with MK 54 Torpedoes and Hellfire air-to-surface missiles


Ther is nothing mentioned about the package Greece is getting with, they made a advertisement. Our ship can be armed with this, and not Greece is getting this. :D
 

Akritas

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Ther is nothing mentioned about the package Greece is getting with, they made a advertisement. Our ship can be armed with this, and not Greece is getting this. :D
My list comes from an official announcement of the Naval Group as also and confirmed contracts.

Just to add the cost of the program is 3 billions euros.
This include :
  • 3 ships
  • Sensors and processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.)
  • Armament(e.g. only the Aster 30 block 1, cost: 2 mil x 32 missiles x 3 ships = 192 mil)
  • Depot(spare parts, missiles, maintenance equipment, e.tc)
  • Training
  • 3 or 5 years FOS(has not yet been officially clarified )
In my view, the cost of each ship, fully equipped and armament, reaches 850 mil euros.
French FDI, that is inferior armament configuration(without RAM and 16 missiles Aster 30), reaches 750 mil euros.
 
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Foulgrim

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My list comes from an official announcement of the Naval Group as also and confirmed contracts.

Just to add the cost of the program is 3 billions euros.
This include :
  • 3 ships
  • Sensors and processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.)
  • Armament(e.g. only the Aster 30 block 1, cost: 2 mil x 32 missiles x 3 ships = 192 mil)
  • Depot(spare parts, missiles, maintenance equipment, e.tc)
  • Training
  • 3 or 5 years FOS(has not yet been officially clarified )
In my view, the cost of each ship, fully equipped and armament, reaches 850 mil euros.
French FDI, that is inferior armament configuration(without RAM and 16 missiles Aster 30), reaches 750 mil euros.
Since the MOU cost 3 billion euros for 3 FDI HN, then this means that the cost of each ship reaches 1 billion euros. You say that without FOS, without the training of the Greek crew and without Aster 30 the cost of each frigate reaches 850 million euros! This is a rough and inaccurate way of estimating the objective cost of the ship. Without technical support, without armament and without training it is just a useless ship doing nothing. The whole package is necessary for these ships to sail, you can not remove anything from the overall package of the agreement just because you want to reduce the cost of the ship! In 2017, the French Parliament passed the bill for the 5 FDI at a cost of 3.8 billion euros, ie 420 million euros for each frigate when Greece will pay more than double for each ship! Of course, it is one thing to buy a ship from a third country and another to build it with local know-how. The French FDI will have ECM (which the Greek ones will not have) but also a Sylver A-70 for the Scalp Naval!
67873258_2358920020986153_360111610242531328_n.jpg
 

Akritas

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Since the MOU cost 3 billion euros for 3 FDI HN, then this means that the cost of each ship reaches 1 billion euros. You say that without FOS, without the training of the Greek crew and without Aster 30 the cost of each frigate reaches 850 million euros!This is a rough and inaccurate way of estimating the objective cost of the ship. Without technical support, without armament and without training it is just a useless ship doing nothing. The whole package is necessary for these ships to sail, you can not remove anything from the overall package of the agreement just because you want to reduce the cost of the ship!
I didnt say ...without.
I was clear.....
My list comes from an official announcement of the Naval Group as also and confirmed contracts.

Just to add the cost of the program is 3 billions euros.
This include :
  • 3 ships
  • Sensors and processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.)
  • Armament(e.g. only the Aster 30 block 1, cost: 2 mil x 32 missiles x 3 ships = 192 mil)
  • Depot(spare parts, missiles, maintenance equipment, e.tc)
  • Training
  • 3 or 5 years FOS(has not yet been officially clarified
So, the cost of the 3 bill include everything, except the development and the installation of the new R-ECM , actually the compartment will exist, and only at the Hellenic FDI's as Naval mentioned.
This is the reason that Naval won the project from the Damen.

As regard this.....
In 2017, the French Parliament passed the bill for the 5 FDI at a cost of 3.8 billion euros, ie 420 million euros for each frigate when Greece will pay more than double for each ship! Of course, it is one thing to buy a ship from a third country and another to build it with local know-how. The French FDI will have ECM (which the Greek ones will not have) but also a Sylver A-70 for the Scalp Naval!
The info was created 2 years ago, and speaks for provision. Now we know, that the French FDI will not have R-ECM, actually will not even have a compartment. Hellenic FDI has one.
The French program(€3.8bn) is diffrent from the Greek, because include €1.7bn for R&D, without the cost of the armament.
The price of the €2.1 billion or €420 million per unit(French and Hellenic FDI), is the price of the unit with navigability, and basic equipment navigation.
On the other hand the price of €765 million per unit(French FDI), is the price that include Sensors, processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.) and armament( of course without 1 A-50 cell, 16 Aster-30 missiles and RAM).
French FDI, will not have Sylver A-70 and Scalp Naval, you can see this in the latest press of Naval-Group:[Strongly armed (Exocet MM40 B3C anti-surface missiles, Aster 15/30 anti-air missiles, MU90 antisubmarine torpedoes, artillery]

In conclusion, if you compare the prices of the two programs, as well as the prices of the previous French offers, it is obvious that the French made a super offer.
My estimation, of the €850 million per unit(Hellenic FDI) has taken all these into account.
 

Foulgrim

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I didnt say ...without.
I was clear.....

So, the cost of the 3 bill include everything, except the development and the installation of the new R-ECM , actually the compartment will exist, and only at the Hellenic FDI's as Naval mentioned.
This is the reason that Naval won the project from the Damen.

As regard this.....

The info was created 2 years ago, and speaks for provision. Now we know, that the French FDI will not have R-ECM, actually will not even have a compartment. Hellenic FDI has one.
The French program(€3.8bn) is diffrent from the Greek, because include €1.7bn for R&D, without the cost of the armament.
The price of the €2.1 billion or €420 million per unit(French and Hellenic FDI), is the price of the unit with navigability, and basic equipment navigation.
On the other hand the price of €765 million per unit(French FDI), is the price that include Sensors, processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.) and armament( of course without 1 A-50 cell, 16 Aster-30 missiles and RAM).
French FDI, will not have Sylver A-70 and Scalp Naval, you can see this in the latest press of Naval-Group:[Strongly armed (Exocet MM40 B3C anti-surface missiles, Aster 15/30 anti-air missiles, MU90 antisubmarine torpedoes, artillery]

In conclusion, if you compare the prices of the two programs, as well as the prices of the previous French offers, it is obvious that the French made a super offer.
My estimation, of the €850 million per unit(Hellenic FDI) has taken all these into account.
1) Your words:
"In my view, the cost of each ship, fully equipped and armament, reaches 850 mil euros."
This means that your estimate for the cost of the FDI HN frigates at 850 million euros per ship comes from the removal of technical support and crew training. You said that the cost of the FDI HN frigate is estimated at 850 million euros with full military equipment and armament. Since the cost of the MOU amounts to 3 billion euros for 3 ships, how did you calculate that each ship will cost 850 million euros and not 1 billion euros?
The cost of 3 billion euros included 4 things:
a) Ship
b) Crew training
c) Technical support
d) Armament
To assume that the cost of 1 billion euros per ship is not so much but is 850 million euros means that you have deducted something from the above. The quantity of armament, the cost of armament, the cost of training, the cost of shipbuilding and the cost of technical support are all included with a specific schedule and above all with locked prices!
2) The print edition of the magazine Flight and Space recently wrote that France is expected to start soon with the development of a new ECM for the French FDI (possibly the Greek FDI in the long run). The existing R-ECM (Scorpion 2) will not be installed, as officially announced, but with the aim of developing a new version to include it in the French FDI!
3) I know the cost of the French FDI frigates, which is why i wrote to you for 420 million euros for each ship. The package of 3.8 billion euros is the total cost while, as you correctly write, the 1.7 billion euros is for R&D. Does each Greek FDI cost 420 million euros? Obviously not since we do not have to pay R&D to reduce the total cost of Greek FDI. FDI HNs are net purchase costs with all peripherals (armaments, training, technical support).
4) The Naval Group has released the weapons that have been locked up for the French FDI. The R-ECM and the Sylver A-70 for the Scalp Naval have not been locked but are not out of the plan as you mentioned. Besides, there is the possibility of installing the above two subsystems in the French FDI since there will be the required space for it. Future and planned weapon systems are not included in a project's budget. Whether the 420 million euros include the Scalp Naval, the Sylver A-70 and the new R-ECMs that will be developed I do not know, although probably not as it is not locked armament but something extra that will be added at some point. The same applies to the R-ECM that will be placed in the Greek FDI in the future.



The article says at one point that the cost of each FDI frigate will cost 800 million euros, apparently they have added 1.7 billion euros for research and development, ie 3.8 billion euros for 5 ships (760 million euros per ship).
 

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Since the cost of the MOU amounts to 3 billion euros for 3 ships, how did you calculate that each ship will cost 850 million euros and not 1 billion euros?
The cost of 3 billion euros included 4 things:
a) Ship
b) Crew training
c) Technical support
d) Armament


You found the answer yourself, see again what you wrote.
Is it ever possible for one variable to cost 3 ( : 3)=1 billion, when you have ..... three more?
Actually the variables are 6 as I comment.


4) The Naval Group has released the weapons that have been locked up for the French FDI. The R-ECM and the Sylver A-70 for the Scalp Naval have not been locked but are not out of the plan as you mentioned.
Again, 2nd source, except from the Naval as I mentioned.......Also, apart from the RAM system, the Greek ships will differ from the French ones in that they will have all the infrastructure, wiring, installation bases, cooling systems and electricity supply, for the installation of ECM system (Electronic Counter-Measures) .

 
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Foulgrim

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You found the answer yourself, see again what you wrote.
Is it ever possible for one variable to cost 3 ( : 3)=1 billion, when you have ..... three more?
Actually the variables are 6 as I comment.



Again, 2nd source, except from the Naval as I mentioned.......Also, apart from the RAM system, the Greek ships will differ from the French ones in that they will have all the infrastructure, wiring, installation bases, cooling systems and electricity supply, for the installation of ECM system (Electronic Counter-Measures) .

Your words:
"My list comes from an official announcement of the Naval Group as also and confirmed contracts.
Just to add the cost of the program is 3 billions euros.
This include :
  • 3 ships
  • Sensors and processing systems(R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom, e.tc.)
  • Armament(e.g. only the Aster 30 block 1, cost: 2 mil x 32 missiles x 3 ships = 192 mil)
  • Depot(spare parts, missiles, maintenance equipment, e.tc)
  • Training
  • 3 or 5 years FOS(has not yet been officially clarified )
In my view, the cost of each ship, fully equipped and armament, reaches 850 mil euros.
French FDI, that is inferior armament configuration(without RAM and 16 missiles Aster 30), reaches 750 mil euros."

My words:
"Since the MOU cost 3 billion euros for 3 FDI HN, then this means that the cost of each ship reaches 1 billion euros. You say that without FOS, without the training of the Greek crew and without Aster 30 the cost of each frigate reaches 850 million euros! This is a rough and inaccurate way of estimating the objective cost of the ship. Without technical support, without armament and without training it is just a useless ship doing nothing. The whole package is necessary for these ships to sail, you can not remove anything from the overall package of the agreement just because you want to reduce the cost of the ship!"
Your words:
"I didnt say ...without.
I was clear....."

You try to reduce/cut the cost of each FDI HN ship depending on what you want to add each time!
You say that the cost of the frigate is 850 million euros. Wrong, according to the signed MOU is 1 billion euros for each ship, you do not "cut" the cost of the ship to get the net cost because in the end all these 3 or 6 (put as many as you want) different parameters are absolutely needed to sail each ship. Without technical support it will rot, without crew training it will hit a rock, without weapons it will be hit by an enemy ship and all of the above without the ship itself is for garbage. We do not cut the cost of a deal to lower the cost of the ship just because we bought a frigate without Sylver A-70 => Scalp Naval and without electronic countermeasure(ECM). The price is not justified for what the frigate offers, if it had even ECM then we would talk about a reasonable cost of buying a new frigate, but we are not talking about that anymore. It is a marginally good price, but it does not offer us one of the greatest weapons against enemy targets.

The cost of 3 billion euros included 4 things:
a) Ship
b) Crew training
c) Technical support(FOS, spare parts, maintenance equipment)
d) Armament(missiles, R-ESM, C-ESM, Satcom)

In parentheses i put what you put in your own categorization.
In my previous comment I wrote the following:
"The print edition of the magazine Flight and Space recently wrote that France is expected to start soon with the development of a new ECM for the French FDI (possibly the Greek FDI in the long run). The existing R-ECM (Scorpion 2) will not be installed, as officially announced, but with the aim of developing a new version to include it in the French FDI!"

ECM is not included in the € 3 billion purchase package for the FDI HN frigates.
We all know that ECM can be added to FDI HN in the future. Defense Point magazine does not say anything new.

The 420 million euros for each French ship is not comparable to the 1 billion euros for each Greek ship. Even to an ignorant person, if you tell them the cost of French and Greek FDI, he will understand that there is an over-costing of a project to the detriment of Greece. I am not saying that we would buy cheaper frigates from another country at the level of FDI, but i emphasize this to highlight the fact that a weapon system has another cost when you produce it yourself and another cost when you buy it simply as a customer. The money given to FDI could develop our industry, the creation of Greek construction / know-how of ships & subsystems. The price difference of 420 <1000 is the imprint that a state leaves when it is self-sufficient in its defense industry.
 
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