Greece Air-Force Greek Rafale Program

[Akritas]

Another fact about Rafale is that it was born due to France's disagreements about the Eurofighter Typhoon.

France wanted a naval version while other members especially Germany said no. France left and develop their own program and the rafale was born.

Basically typhoon and rafale were born out of the same program but got separated.

So?

 

[Ryder]

So?

Nothing wrong really its just interesting.

 

[Akritas]

If you ask me, the country that wants war is the country that violates many of the agreements it has signed but seeks excuses for its own claims by interpreting some of them as it suits them, and trying to close the whole coast of a country of 85 million people for a tiny island, but which seeks all kinds of alliances because it cannot afford, and speaks about Turkey in every country they go to.

If you could, you would wage a war tomorrow, but if these two countries are not at war, it is because of Turkey's deterrent power. If Turkey wanted war, you wouldn't have a single base where you can deploy your planes. The reason you take up arms is to prepare for your expansionist claims that will be a cause of war in the future. You don't see any moral, ethical and rule objections in your claims trying to connect the whole Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean Seas by demanding almost the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean for a tiny island 2km from Turkey, but when Turkey, as being the largeat coastline in Mediterranean claims the seas at the edge of its nose, you accept that Turkey don't want its rights but "war". We actually call it "Şark Kurnazlığı". You can only deceive the blind and deaf with this type of perception games. We are aware of the inconsistency of your claims and the perception games you play. Turkish steps will be taken as a response to every step you take. If you're craving war, I'm sure you'll have what you want when you need it.

You put a lot of issues together, in a thread that does not concern Greek-Turkish issues.
So there is a relevant thread(click here) that answers all these nonsensical remarks.

 

[Akritas]

*Air-to-air and air-to-surface?

air-to-surface

 

[Akritas]

Yes. I looked at the reports about how Armenia lost because of the Azerbaijan drones, I was like that's a huge deal. Then British defence sec said how we need to produce drones like Turkey and we moved away from the F-35 to drones and the Tempest, so I looked into it more. And Armenia basically didn't have a combat air force, it has no strategic depth, it has a population 1/3 of Azerbaijan, 1/5 the economy. So all it had was older Russian ground based AA. So it was a much smaller deal than I thought at first.

Does the war need to be learned from and understood, does there need to be certain changes and improves made in west air forces and armies to combat modern drones and long-range weapons. Sure. However you don't need to change your entire strategy like the British have done. Armenia should have lost the war, it just wouldn't have been a total crushing of their military capabilities like it was. That's was the surprising thing.

I do not think we need to change our strategy, the deterrence, all we do is adapt our forces to the modern warfare conditions, learning from other conflicts.
After all, Turkey is completely predictable, we know what it wants and how it wants it. If we are complacent, we will lose a lot.
And a history lesson comes from the UK, and the Battle of Britain, also known as the Air Battle for England. That's why we invest -since 1974- in good airplanes as Rafale is .

 

[Kansei]

Hm......
Do you realise that the engines the Koreans will give are for the primary batch
Did you know that the BATU engine has already been built amd is being tested

What we learned from recent embargo is that the Turkish engine will swallow the international market and will make the Germans regret even embargoing Turkey. If they didnt embargo Turkey, the Germans would have a massive monopoly on the tank market with Turkey, a potential competitor, not developing its engines at all

Yes yes turkey will dominate independently the tank, missile, airplane field alongside with everything

 

[Ardabas34]

@Akritas

While it may all look good on paper...

1) You are buying a very small amount of Rafales. A number that probably wont upset the balance.
2) Greece is known to have a very bad maintenance for aircrafts, especially compared to Turkey. This, coupled with having a different type of plane will upset your logistics and all this for a small amount of Rafales will likely make it not worthy. This will apply more and more as the time goes by.

I think Greece thought of this herself and made the acquisitions of the planes for political reasons. To allign herself with France.

 

[Kansei]

If you ask me, the country that wants war is the country that violates many of the agreements it has signed but seeks excuses for its own claims by interpreting some of them as it suits them, and trying to close the whole coast of a country of 85 million people for a tiny island, but which seeks all kinds of alliances because it cannot afford, and speaks about Turkey in every country they go to.

If you could, you would wage a war tomorrow, but if these two countries are not at war, it is because of Turkey's deterrent power. If Turkey wanted war, you wouldn't have a single base where you can deploy your planes. The reason you take up arms is to prepare for your expansionist claims that will be a cause of war in the future. You don't see any moral, ethical and rule objections in your claims trying to connect the whole Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean Seas by demanding almost the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean for a tiny island 2km from Turkey, but when Turkey, as being the largeat coastline in Mediterranean claims the seas at the edge of its nose, you accept that Turkey don't want its rights but "war". We actually call it "Şark Kurnazlığı". You can only deceive the blind and deaf with this type of perception games. We are aware of the inconsistency of your claims and the perception games you play. Turkish steps will be taken as a response to every step you take. If you're craving war, I'm sure you'll have what you want when you need it.

Jesus Christ can you keep that in the 5 billion threads we have for the Greek-Turkish Aegean claims, you are literally spewing random opinions (not even facts) in a Rafale thread while being unprovoked

 

[Kansei]

Rafale F3R has the following distinct advantages over the Greek F-16V:

• Significantly smaller RCS compared to the F-16V, which allows it to evade enemy radar detection at a shorter range compared to the F-16V.
• Carries the advanced variable thrust Meteor BVR missile, which is currently the most accurate long-range air-to-air missile in the world.
• Carries the advanced Scalp a Long-range, air-to-surface missile, with operational range at 560 km.
• Powered by twin engines which increases reliability during combat and peacetime flying.
• Combat radius of Rafale are 1825 km while F-16V are 550 km.
• Can supercruise at Mach 1.4
• Has a superior threat sensor fusion, and situational awareness sensors compared to the F-16V.
• Engagement range is 42 targets in 100 km area while F-16V has engagement range is 20 targets in 84 km of area.

Greek F-16V in the following areas:

1. Is configured to carry a much wider and less expensive range of munitions due to an extensive range of weapon integration for dozens of operators.
2. Consumes 25% less fuel per kilometer of flight (0.70 km/l versus 0.91 km/l for Rafale).
3. Is far less expensive to operate (€12,000 per hour of flight vs €24,000 for Rafale.
4. Αirframe is rated for 12,000 flight hours compared to 8,000 hours for the Rafale.
5. APG-83 radar is superior to the AESA RBE2 radar fitted to the latest model of the Rafale F3. Both radars are in the top.

Hey is there any evidence for that ? I mean it’s probably true since Americans usually have the best radars and they are huge compared to the Rafale but is there any source ?

 

[Kansei]

@Akritas

While it may all look good on paper...

1) You are buying a very small amount of Rafales. A number that probably wont upset the balance.
2) Greece is known to have a very bad maintenance for aircrafts, especially compared to Turkey. This, coupled with having a different type of plane will upset your logistics and all this for a small amount of Rafales will likely make it not worthy. This will apply more and more as the time goes by.

I think Greece thought of this herself and made the acquisitions of the planes for political reasons. To allign herself with France.

1) Apparently in the NATO Tiger Meet 2015 in a mock up fight between 8 Tuaf F-16 vs 4 French Air Force Rafale, Turkey lost 0-8 (https://www.ptisidiastima.com/rafale-vs-turkish-f-16/). Even if you reject that I still believe that 24 isn’t that small of a number and that except the fact that Scalp and Meteor are multipliers when it comes to who wins ( especially with Meteors I really see no counter from Turkish F-16s), Rafale’s manoeuvrability will win more than 1 fight. There was an interview from the 2000s of a Greek Mirage pilot who regularly ran mock fights against Greek F-16s and said that if an experienced pilot knows how to take advantage of the instatenious turn rate advantage on the merge he will win 9 times out of 10 ( The 1 loss to account for mechanical malfunction). Again even if you want to ignore that claim as being too hyperbolic, if we accept that the Rafale is e.g 1.35x better at dogfighting purely on manoeuvrability ( again ignoring Meteor and Mica NG), that doesn’t mean that for every 1.35 Tuaf F-16s lost 1 Haf Rafale will also lose, if you use your advantage to the fullest you can win several dogfights without losing.
Oh yeah and having two engines is also a big benefit since there have been plenty of cases were a missile only damaged part of an an engine and not completely so it could still run, let alone both engines.

2)That is 100% objectively true. At least it was a couple of years ago. One of the few things that Greece needs to admire and try to imitate from Turkey is their long term willingness to fully take advantage of their weapons. Our political leadership has this trend of buying super duper ships/planes/submarines and then never buying the actual weapons and maintenance parts. At one point I read that out of 42 Mirage only 6 were flying since PM after PM had been ignoring the request for almost 15 years but fortunately Mitsotakis approved 2 years ago I think a big program with new FOS and maintenance program and pretty sure before that Tsipras approved a similar program for the F-16s. Now except the fact that Turkey lost it’s best pilots (and has apparently been hiring Pakistani Pilots), there have been a huge amount of reports from Turkish sources how most of their fleet is downed and in terrible condition

 

[Akritas]

@Akritas

While it may all look good on paper...

1) You are buying a very small amount of Rafales. A number that probably wont upset the balance.
2) Greece is known to have a very bad maintenance for aircrafts, especially compared to Turkey. This, coupled with having a different type of plane will upset your logistics and all this for a small amount of Rafales will likely make it not worthy. This will apply more and more as the time goes by.

I think Greece thought of this herself and made the acquisitions of the planes for political reasons. To allign herself with France.

1) The operational planning of the Hellenic Air Force did not have Rafale. It was a dream to have a acft like Rafale. The fact that in the next 2 years it will have 24, the first 6 on January 19th , fully armored, are welcome.
They are not much;
Yes they are , I would like another 24, but these will probably be the F-35.

2) Greece had low availability only at the Mirage 2000 because the lack of money,that is, lack of spare parts. This underfunding changed thanks to ..... Turkey, and the events in Evros, when Greek politicians woke up and understood what Turks want.
As regards the logistics, is known that Rafale will replace the old Mirage 2000. So, plus 1, but minus 1.

3) Compared to Turkey, we are in better situation. Turkey and Greece have similar numbers of fighter jets, but the HAF possesses the greater number of highest generation jets. Add that the TAF has problem with the....pilots. Thanks to Erdogan, most of them are in the.....jail. According to the air force’s own internal report dated January 19, 2016, the military needed 554 new pilots including 190 combat pilots to reach its normal level.

 

[Blackhawk]

1) Apparently in the NATO Tiger Meet 2015 in a mock up fight between 8 Tuaf F-16 vs 4 French Air Force Rafale, Turkey lost 0-8 (https://www.ptisidiastima.com/rafale-vs-turkish-f-16/). Even if you reject that I still believe that 24 isn’t that small of a number and that except the fact that Scalp and Meteor are multipliers when it comes to who wins ( especially with Meteors I really see no counter from Turkish F-16s), Rafale’s manoeuvrability will win more than 1 fight. There was an interview from the 2000s of a Greek Mirage pilot who regularly ran mock fights against Greek F-16s and said that if an experienced pilot knows how to take advantage of the instatenious turn rate advantage on the merge he will win 9 times out of 10 ( The 1 loss to account for mechanical malfunction). Again even if you want to ignore that claim as being too hyperbolic, if we accept that the Rafale is e.g 1.35x better at dogfighting purely on manoeuvrability ( again ignoring Meteor and Mica NG), that doesn’t mean that for every 1.35 Tuaf F-16s lost 1 Haf Rafale will also lose, if you use your advantage to the fullest you can win several dogfights without losing.
Oh yeah and having two engines is also a big benefit since there have been plenty of cases were a missile only damaged part of an an engine and not completely so it could still run, let alone both engines.

2)That is 100% objectively true. At least it was a couple of years ago. One of the few things that Greece needs to admire and try to imitate from Turkey is their long term willingness to fully take advantage of their weapons. Our political leadership has this trend of buying super duper ships/planes/submarines and then never buying the actual weapons and maintenance parts. At one point I read that out of 42 Mirage only 6 were flying since PM after PM had been ignoring the request for almost 15 years but fortunately Mitsotakis approved 2 years ago I think a big program with new FOS and maintenance program and pretty sure before that Tsipras approved a similar program for the F-16s. Now except the fact that Turkey lost it’s best pilots (and has apparently been hiring Pakistani Pilots), there have been a huge amount of reports from Turkish sources how most of their fleet is downed and in terrible condition

Your thesis may make sense when you reduce the subject to war games on the ps console and do dogfights with graphics, but there are serious issues you have missed. Turkey will never send its warplanes and drones into a dogfight alone. What you call a dogfight is nothing but a piss race in peacetime. Wars are the wild events where complex tactics are applied and strategic superiority can be gained as long as all elements can act as a single fist against enemy's counter measure tactics and you pay the price of failure with your blood. In this context, Turkish F16s will move in corridors consisting of powerful jammer signals that you have not encountered in any exercise before. In addition, the missile system that Turkey will unveil against Meteor will begin tests this year. Supersonic unmanned fighter aircraft projects with AESA radar will also add a new dimension to air warfare. In addition, a target drone called jemsah will be used to confuse Meteor type dangerous missiles and attack ground-based targets. All these systems will act within the same network. From this perspective, it doesn't matter how many points Rafael gets against F16 in the exercises.

 

[Kansei]

Your thesis may make sense when you reduce the subject to war games on the ps console and do dogfights with graphics, but there are serious issues you have missed. Turkey will never send its warplanes and drones into a dogfight alone. What you call a dogfight is nothing but a piss race in peacetime. Wars are the wild events where complex tactics are applied and strategic superiority can be gained as long as all elements can act as a single fist against enemy's counter measure tactics and you pay the price of failure with your blood. In this context, Turkish F16s will move in corridors consisting of powerful jammer signals that you have not encountered in any exercise before. In addition, the missile system that Turkey will unveil against Meteor will begin tests this year. Supersonic unmanned fighter aircraft projects with AESA radar will also add a new dimension to air warfare. In addition, a target drone called jemsah will be used to confuse Meteor type dangerous missiles and attack ground-based targets. All these systems will act within the same network. From this perspective, it doesn't matter how many points Rafael gets against F16 in the exercises.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA So your reply is “Your reply is chlidish because Turkey will have Secret Super Duper Jammer that will not only Jam F16Vs but the RAFALE that not even the SU-35 jammed but instead got jammed, Oh and supper dupper best A2A Missile that will be the best on the world because source: It will be Turkish “. Jesus arguing with people in this forum is insane, they call you out for something, don’t give evidence for their argument and then commit the fallacy that they are accusing you of only several degrees worse. Yes let’s completely dismiss how the F16V and Block 52+M and future upgraded Block 50s will communicate through link 16 with Rafale , Gowind 2900 and FDI HN which are literally designed to communicate with each other because there are totally theoretical, “realistic” Turkish prototypes (not even production ready) that will 100% be ready in 2019 2022 2025 2027 20xx

 

[Numberone]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA So your reply is “Your reply is chlidish because Turkey will have Secret Super Duper Jammer that will not only Jam F16Vs but the RAFALE that not even the SU-35 jammed but instead got jammed, Oh and supper dupper best A2A Missile that will be the best on the world because source: It will be Turkish “. Jesus arguing with people in this forum is insane, they call you out for something, don’t give evidence and then commit the fallacy that they are accusing you of only several degrees worse. Yes let’s completely dismiss how the F16V and Block 52+M and future upgraded Block 50s will communicate through link 16 with Rafale , Gowind 2900 and FDI HN which are literally designed to communicate with each other because there are totally theoretical, “realistic” Turkish prototypes (not even production ready) that will 100% be ready in 2019 2022 2025 2027 20xx

Refrain from childish behaviour.

 

[Akritas]

Hey is there any evidence for that ? I mean it’s probably true since Americans usually have the best radars and they are huge compared to the Rafale but is there any source ?

In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles.
APG-83 radar allows tracking range to 65 nautical miles, and with detection ranges up 80 nautical miles.
The diffrence is small, but is better.

 

[Kansei]

Refrain from childish behaviour.

Can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not

 

[Kansei]

In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles.
APG-83 radar allows tracking range to 65 nautical miles, and with detection ranges up 80 nautical miles.
The diffrence is small, but is better.

Thanks I know it’s a bother and you probably don’t remember the exact one but do you have a source I could read up on

 

[Blackhawk]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA So your reply is “Your reply is chlidish because Turkey will have Secret Super Duper Jammer that will not only Jam F16Vs but the RAFALE that not even the SU-35 jammed but instead got jammed, Oh and supper dupper best A2A Missile that will be the best on the world because source: It will be Turkish “. Jesus arguing with people in this forum is insane, they call you out for something, don’t give evidence and then commit the fallacy that they are accusing you of only several degrees worse. Yes let’s completely dismiss how the F16V and Block 52+M and future upgraded Block 50s will communicate through link 16 with Rafale , Gowind 2900 and FDI HN which are literally designed to communicate with each other because there are totally theoretical, “realistic” Turkish prototypes (not even production ready) that will 100% be ready in 2019 2022 2025 2027 20xx

Your sentences reflect your discomfort when you read the truth, but stay calm. Facts will not change with your comments.
Turkey's Jammer projects have never been super secret or something. They are all developing right before your eyes. The modification of 4 aircraft continues. Tests of the Ramjet missile were announced through official channels but I did not claim that we did the best in anything, on the contrary, I mentioned that no system will work alone but in perfect harmony. If you have a problem with these systems that are under development, then there is no point in writing scenarios about Greek purchases that have not yet entered your inventory.

 

[Akritas]

Thanks I know it’s a bother and you probably don’t remember the exact one but do you have a source I could read up in

RBE2 radar.......

Serious Squall - Avionics International

The Dassault Aviation Rafale is the newest combat aircraft serving France’s Air Force and Navy. Over the past few years, the twin-engine fighter has replaced the Armée de l’Air’s older […]

www.aviationtoday.com

APG-83 radar.....

APG-83 AESA Radars to Improve F-16 Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground Performance - Avionics International

The Northrop Grumman AN/APG-83 scalable agile beam radar (SABR) for U.S. Air Force F-16 fighters by Lockheed Martin is to provide 5th generation radar features akin to those of the […]

www.aviationtoday.com

 

[Kansei]

Your sentences reflect your discomfort when you read the truth, but stay calm. Facts will not change with your comments.
Turkey's Jammer projects have never been super secret or something. They are all developing right before your eyes. The modification of 4 aircraft continues. Tests of the Ramjet missile were announced through official channels but I did not claim that we did the best in anything, on the contrary, I mentioned that no system will work alone but in perfect harmony. If you have a problem with these systems that are under development, then there is no point in writing scenarios about Greek purchases that have not yet entered your inventory.

Yes because the already owned F-16 Block 52+ , the 6 Rafale that are technically in inventory and will be literally landing in their base in Greece in 10 days, the Block 50 upgrade program that the majority of Major parties in Greece approve of and are on their way to be voted in or not in congress alongside the FDI HN and the future corvette program to replace 35 year old ships is way less realistic than theoretical Turkish prototypes from a nations industry that has a history of pushing programs back for years to arrive in 20xx.Once again, not only do you completely ignore that’s Greece has more interconnectivity than Turkey planned for the short-term future but the Turkish systems will be so good that they will COMPLETELY jam brand new top of the line systems designed by America and France that not even Russia and China could jam just because… it’s Turkish ?