India HAL Tejas Program

Nilgiri

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Aircraft can leak oil, I vividly remember the US aggressor F-18s leaking oil on the ramp like drunkards. Some say that was not oil but water instead, also possible.

Regardless, it's an active duty aircraft of the air force without known issues. Tejas is many things, but it doesn't just lock up and crash. This looks like a very clear case of pilot error to me.


APU exhaust should be up top. Smoke generators are on the wing pylons as fake missiles. Interesting.

Yup pretty much open shut case of severe pilot error at low altitude if you ask me.

It bears uncanny resemblance to the Polish F-16 crash at an airshow rehearsal a couple months ago. Again what looks to be major pilot misjudgement in that one.

Sad.

Shoreham aircrash also comes to mind, that was again a loop with too little altitude for the thrust the old warbird (Hawker Hunter) was capable of. What was wild was the (blacked out) pilot survived the impact (being thrown out of canopy during impact) and was prosecuted for manslaughter of the casualties on the ground. I think he was acquitted.

But really pilots, however well trained they are, shouldnt let rush of blood get too much....its not worth it.
 

Ahlatshah

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Aircraft can leak oil, I vividly remember the US aggressor F-18s leaking oil on the ramp like drunkards. Some say that was not oil but water instead, also possible.
Of course aircraft leaks oil. But there are limits for that, depending on engine. I remember maintanence guy counted the drops, if it is (lets say) under 15 drops a minute while the engine running idle, the aircraft is good to go for (lets say again) 2 hours of flight and inspect further after that, over 15 drops no go.

It can not be water btw. If it was there was no can to collect. Because while water is harmless, oil is however, clear FOD (Foreign Object Damage) and can be very harmful even dangerous when sucked into engines. So leaked oil has to be removed and cleaned from the apron. In civil airports, airlines have to call the airport authority when leaked on the ground and pay for the oil cleaning service, if you dont there is severe penalty for leaving oil build up. For the military airports (in our AF case), there are always airport maintenance crew to take care of such FODs.
 

hugh

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Yup pretty much open shut case of severe pilot error at low altitude if you ask me.

It bears uncanny resemblance to the Polish F-16 crash at an airshow rehearsal a couple months ago. Again what looks to be major pilot misjudgement in that one.

Sad.

Shoreham aircrash also comes to mind, that was again a loop with too little altitude for the thrust the old warbird (Hawker Hunter) was capable of. What was wild was the (blacked out) pilot survived the impact (being thrown out of canopy during impact) and was prosecuted for manslaughter of the casualties on the ground. I think he was acquitted.

But really pilots, however well trained they are, shouldnt let rush of blood get too much....its not worth it.
this butt-clenching show was a year ago and it could wipe out dozens of spectators. sometimes it's just pure recklessness of the pilot.


from the viewers' pov
 

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I find it hard to believe that GE delivered only Six engines in five years!
Is there just some delays, or some production difficulties or is this piece a totally black propaganda?


The American General Electric company left New Delhi in the lurch by delivering only 6 engines to India in 5 years.

▪️A large number of completed Tejas aircraft are sitting idle on the ground at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facilities.

▪️GE's poor track record with the Tejas raises question marks regarding the HÜRJET, which uses a similar engine in the F404 class.
↘️
 

IC3M@N FX

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Maybe GE just doesn't see a market for it... and the F404-GE-IN20 simply isn't worth the effort—everyone else uses the off-the-shelf F-404, which can be scaled.

We need to take an honest look at the facts here, without the usual PR spin: The fact that deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A have stalled could ultimately be a strategic decision on GE’s part. If you look at the global market, GE likely simply doesn’t see any growth potential for the Tejas beyond India’s own needs. And let’s be realistic: Aside from the Indian Air Force, no one is going to buy this aircraft. This isn’t bashing; it’s a sober assessment of the market situation.
Who, seriously, would you even try to sell this platform to? In the Middle East or Southeast Asia, no one is going to put the Tejas in their hangar because the aircraft is a diplomatic and technical nightmare. It’s crammed with subsystems from France, Israel, and the U.S., which immediately plunges any buyer into “update and certification hell.” For every minor adjustment or software patch, one would feel compelled to ask half the world for permission and coordinate contracts with four different nations. A potential customer would much rather opt for a JF-17, a J-10C, or proven systems like the F-16, the Gripen, or the Rafale, where there are clear points of contact and straightforward update paths.
India has made a fundamental strategic mistake here: the aircraft was developed around foreign components instead of first bringing 70 to 80 percent of the critical subsystems to market readiness domestically. Had this technological foundation been established first, India would now possess the platform sovereignty that is absolutely essential for genuine marketing abroad. As it stands, however, the Tejas remains a hybrid construct that, while slowly improving thanks to the new Uttam radar and Indian EW suites, will always remain fundamentally dependent on foreign suppliers. In this form, the project is essentially a stillbirth for the export market. One can only hope for the Indian aerospace industry that the AMCA program will finally learn from these mistakes and prioritize national sovereignty over the technology.

MilestoneDateDuration since First Flight
First Flight (TD-1 Prototype)Jan 2001-
IOC (Initial Operational Clearance)Jan 2015~ 14 Years
FOC (Final Operational Clearance)Feb 2019~ 18 Years
Mk1A Block 1 (Modernization)April 2026~ 25 Years (Roll-out phase)

That's simply not enough for a fighter jet or LCA/Trainer.
 

dronie

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Maybe GE just doesn't see a market for it... and the F404-GE-IN20 simply isn't worth the effort—everyone else uses the off-the-shelf F-404, which can be scaled.

We need to take an honest look at the facts here, without the usual PR spin: The fact that deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A have stalled could ultimately be a strategic decision on GE’s part. If you look at the global market, GE likely simply doesn’t see any growth potential for the Tejas beyond India’s own needs. And let’s be realistic: Aside from the Indian Air Force, no one is going to buy this aircraft. This isn’t bashing; it’s a sober assessment of the market situation.
Who, seriously, would you even try to sell this platform to? In the Middle East or Southeast Asia, no one is going to put the Tejas in their hangar because the aircraft is a diplomatic and technical nightmare. It’s crammed with subsystems from France, Israel, and the U.S., which immediately plunges any buyer into “update and certification hell.” For every minor adjustment or software patch, one would feel compelled to ask half the world for permission and coordinate contracts with four different nations. A potential customer would much rather opt for a JF-17, a J-10C, or proven systems like the F-16, the Gripen, or the Rafale, where there are clear points of contact and straightforward update paths.
India has made a fundamental strategic mistake here: the aircraft was developed around foreign components instead of first bringing 70 to 80 percent of the critical subsystems to market readiness domestically. Had this technological foundation been established first, India would now possess the platform sovereignty that is absolutely essential for genuine marketing abroad. As it stands, however, the Tejas remains a hybrid construct that, while slowly improving thanks to the new Uttam radar and Indian EW suites, will always remain fundamentally dependent on foreign suppliers. In this form, the project is essentially a stillbirth for the export market. One can only hope for the Indian aerospace industry that the AMCA program will finally learn from these mistakes and prioritize national sovereignty over the technology.

MilestoneDateDuration since First Flight
First Flight (TD-1 Prototype)Jan 2001-
IOC (Initial Operational Clearance)Jan 2015~ 14 Years
FOC (Final Operational Clearance)Feb 2019~ 18 Years
Mk1A Block 1 (Modernization)April 2026~ 25 Years (Roll-out phase)

That's simply not enough for a fighter jet or LCA/Trainer.
And your take doesnt make any sense at all. Do you really think GE wouldnt care about their largest market after the US? GE need to supply engines for around 220 tejas mk1a alone. Also GE is the one who is supplying f414 engines also for the mk2 and initial AMCA.They have been fighting tooth and nail to get a part in the next Engine program also. People are so brain dead that they cannot accept that GE is facing issues around its components and logistics.For the subsystem part other than US, China and maybe Russia who really does makes weapons without foreign components nowadays?
 
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Gessler

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I find it hard to believe that GE delivered only Six engines in five years!
Is there just some delays, or some production difficulties or is this piece a totally black propaganda?


The American General Electric company left New Delhi in the lurch by delivering only 6 engines to India in 5 years.

▪️A large number of completed Tejas aircraft are sitting idle on the ground at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facilities.

▪️GE's poor track record with the Tejas raises question marks regarding the HÜRJET, which uses a similar engine in the F404 class.
↘️

I'm not sure as to the exact numbers that were delivered, but it's true that several airframes of Mk-1A have been built and are laying around awaiting their engines.

The reasons for it are officially that there's a supply chain problem leading to delay in deliveries. The US has got an internal hierarchy or supply orders - domestic supply of components takes absolute priority. The needs of treaty allies comes next (which has its own hierarchy depending on theatre/ally's importance to US' own national security etc.), needs of non-treaty Major Defence Partners (which India is) comes after that. The needs of regular FMS sales to others comes after that.

Between the supply chain issues which results in limited inventory of required parts and the rationing, we get to the issue at hand. There've been some assurances that this will be resolved soon but that remains to be seen.

Maybe GE just doesn't see a market for it... and the F404-GE-IN20 simply isn't worth the effort—everyone else uses the off-the-shelf F-404, which can be scaled.

We need to take an honest look at the facts here, without the usual PR spin: The fact that deliveries of the Tejas Mk1A have stalled could ultimately be a strategic decision on GE’s part. If you look at the global market, GE likely simply doesn’t see any growth potential for the Tejas beyond India’s own needs. And let’s be realistic: Aside from the Indian Air Force, no one is going to buy this aircraft. This isn’t bashing; it’s a sober assessment of the market situation.
Who, seriously, would you even try to sell this platform to? In the Middle East or Southeast Asia, no one is going to put the Tejas in their hangar because the aircraft is a diplomatic and technical nightmare. It’s crammed with subsystems from France, Israel, and the U.S., which immediately plunges any buyer into “update and certification hell.” For every minor adjustment or software patch, one would feel compelled to ask half the world for permission and coordinate contracts with four different nations. A potential customer would much rather opt for a JF-17, a J-10C, or proven systems like the F-16, the Gripen, or the Rafale, where there are clear points of contact and straightforward update paths.
India has made a fundamental strategic mistake here: the aircraft was developed around foreign components instead of first bringing 70 to 80 percent of the critical subsystems to market readiness domestically. Had this technological foundation been established first, India would now possess the platform sovereignty that is absolutely essential for genuine marketing abroad. As it stands, however, the Tejas remains a hybrid construct that, while slowly improving thanks to the new Uttam radar and Indian EW suites, will always remain fundamentally dependent on foreign suppliers. In this form, the project is essentially a stillbirth for the export market. One can only hope for the Indian aerospace industry that the AMCA program will finally learn from these mistakes and prioritize national sovereignty over the technology.

MilestoneDateDuration since First Flight
First Flight (TD-1 Prototype)Jan 2001-
IOC (Initial Operational Clearance)Jan 2015~ 14 Years
FOC (Final Operational Clearance)Feb 2019~ 18 Years
Mk1A Block 1 (Modernization)April 2026~ 25 Years (Roll-out phase)

That's simply not enough for a fighter jet or LCA/Trainer.

As someone already said, the requirement of the -IN20 is close to 250 engines (for 220 airframes, plus spares). That engine order is close to the size of the whole Gripen program so far (including all exports of C/D, not counting E as that's a different engine), and bigger than the entire KAI T-50/FA-50 program. It's a very sizeable order in its own right as far as military engines go.

You're right on one thing though - the Mk-1/1A is never going to be an export success. But the domestic user base is quite large by itself even without exports. So I doubt that's the real issue as what GE cares about is the no. of engines it sells, not the no. of customers those engines go to.
 

IC3M@N FX

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And your take doesnt make any sense at all. Do you really think GE wouldnt care about their largest market after the US? GE need to supply engines for around 220 tejas mk1a alone. Also GE is the one who is supplying f414 engines also for the mk2 and initial AMCA.They have been fighting tooth and nail to get a part in the next Engine program also. People are so brain dead that they cannot accept that GE is facing issues around its components and logistics.For the subsystem part other than US, China and maybe Russia who really does makes weapons without foreign components nowadays?
“There’s no denying that GE has an economic interest in the Indian market—that’s just basic accounting. But you’re mixing up two completely different things here: industrial dependence and actual export capability.
Yes, systems like the Gripen or the Hürjet also use GE engines. The crucial difference, however, is that Sweden or Turkey either have full sovereignty over the subsystems of these platforms or at least sole export licenses. They don’t have to play ‘diplomatic Tetris’ to make operational changes to the aircraft.
The Tejas, on the other hand, is trapped in an administrative straitjacket due to its hybrid architecture consisting of Israeli, French, and U.S. components. What country other than India would voluntarily place itself in a position of dependency where it needs approval from four different foreign ministries just for certification and validation for every software change or hardware upgrade?
The question is not whether GE supplies engines. The question is: Why, after 25 years of development and given the current state of technology, is there still not a single export customer, and why haven’t there been at least 2–3 block updates by now? The aircraft itself is by no means bad. The fact that the market has not yet accepted the product is not due to the quality of the hardware, but to the lack of strategic autonomy of the overall package. Unless India soon gains minimum 70-80% control over the critical subsystems—that is, not just the radar, but the entire flight control system and the mission suite, fire control system, and EW/ECM as an ecosystem—the Tejas will remain purely a domestic market product.


What bothers me most about this is that the AMCA project shows India is heading down the same path again. My issue isn’t with seeking partners—that’s legitimate—but with the fact that India clearly doesn’t trust itself to take full responsibility for the architecture. As long as it shies away from sovereignty, it will always remain a junior partner and never rise to become a serious global player in exports.”
 
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