India Corona thread

[Nilgiri]

@crixus MMS/INC admin had much cosier relationship with the same media ecosystem (MSM). Modi comes in and upset lot of that, so skewed response in each crisis is not unknown feature by MSM. There are of course pro-Modi MSM too that go on the other spectrum too.

Point is people should understand what is the root issue behind such people (media, politicians and so on) driving the phenomenon to begin with.

This all runs separate to credit-worthy journalists (and regular non-politician laypeople) that form the larger bulk and just want to do the job without too much agenda either way.

So the "system" bias however perceived and real....is part and parcel of aligning to democracy (and non-authoritarian govt) to begin with.

It is phenomenon seen in all democracies in general.

I can go on at some length how the US MSM covered up big time for NY Governor Cuomo's (during 2020) horrible dereliction of basic duty (as his admin stuffed covid patients into old people homes, while the data clearly showed old people were most susceptible to dieing from it early on)....simply because it was advantageous for them to not do so during a Trump federal administration (and instead focus full blame there in eventually successful effort to unseat him).

This included all the selective tragedy porn/vulture journalism/whatever you call it done by same media ecosystem there....compared to more neutral journalists.

Only way to fight it, is call it out as you see it, and let people decide for themselves. The passage of time also helps...pressure of dissonance (between what a media bias reports compared to reality) builds up and does dissipate.

They (elitists of which MSM media is part of) just in their ego assume it will dissipate on their terms, it rarely does in the short and mid term, and never does in the long term. You and I must ultimately trust in the larger people and truth to prevail.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393087778217365506

 

[crixus]

@crixus MMS/INC admin had much cosier relationship with the same media ecosystem (MSM). Modi comes in and upset lot of that, so skewed response in each crisis is not unknown feature by MSM. There are of course pro-Modi MSM too that go on the other spectrum too.

Point is people should understand what is the root issue behind such people (media, politicians and so on) driving the phenomenon to begin with.

This all runs separate to credit-worthy journalists (and regular non-politician laypeople) that form the larger bulk and just want to do the job without too much agenda either way.

So the "system" bias however perceived and real....is part and parcel of aligning to democracy (and non-authoritarian govt) to begin with.

It is phenomenon seen in all democracies in general.

I can go on at some length how the US MSM covered up big time for NY Governor Cuomo's (during 2020) horrible dereliction of basic duty (as his admin stuffed covid patients into old people homes, while the data clearly showed old people were most susceptible to dieing from it early on)....simply because it was advantageous for them to not do so during a Trump federal administration (and instead focus full blame there in eventually successful effort to unseat him).

This included all the selective tragedy porn/vulture journalism/whatever you call it done by same media ecosystem there....compared to more neutral journalists.

Only way to fight it, is call it out as you see it, and let people decide for themselves. The passage of time also helps...pressure of dissonance (between what a media bias reports compared to reality) builds up and does dissipate.

They (elitists of which MSM media is part of) just in their ego assume it will dissipate on their terms, it rarely does in the short and mid term, and never does in the long term. You and I must ultimately trust in the larger people and truth to prevail.

Rightly said and its only way to fight is to let people decide. The reason I shared this article is they have pinpointed all such instances where they even used the death of their own family members after getting the best possible medical help for propaganda purposes.
Believe me, these pics of pyres disturbed me too, my team members sit in Newry they asked about my parents well after seeing such pics.
You can blame the govt and PM or anyone you want but the middle of crises is not the right time

 

[crixus]

Just to give you some more info on these propaganda websites -

The Twitter profile of Jitarth Jai Bhardwaj and found he is followed by Kapil Mishra. The bio also mentioned that he previously worked with NewsX, News18India, and Zee News.

View attachment 20857

Dose it make the points raised by him irrelevant?
So the name of reporter is what makes his points relevant or not

 

[crixus]

Both the "Daily Guardian" and "Australia Today" are BJP IT cell decoy sites

View attachment 20856

If only the BJP was as sensitive about the country rather than its own image, we would be in better shape.

I agree we would have been in better shape if Maharashtra and Delhi govt did the administration properly. Maharashtra is the centre of both waves .

Wish the CM of Maharashtra had focussed on saving the lives then on making 100 crores a month

 

[Jackdaws]

Dose it make the points raised by him irrelevant?
So the name of reporter is what makes his points relevant or not

Yes. Makes it a propaganda piece.

I agree we would have been in better shape if Maharashtra and Delhi govt did the administration properly. Maharashtra is the centre of both waves .

Wish the CM of Maharashtra had focussed on saving the lives then on making 100 crores a month

I live in MH. There was no underreporting. People weren't begging for oxygen and certainly weren't dying on the roads. It was a tough time but was being managed.

From 28% to 6% Positivity Rate, How Mumbai Dealt With its Massive Covid-19 Surge

Last week, the Supreme Court lauded the 'Mumbai Model' of handling the second wave of coronavirus. With early preparation of oxygen supply, bed availability and efficient working of its 'war room', the city has managed to reduce its positivity rate to a single digit in the last month.

www.thebetterindia.com

The CM was trying to make 100 crore a month? Where did you get that info?

Wish instead of focussing on elections and threatening common citizens for reporting oxygen shortage, CM of states like UP had focussed on saving lives. Bodies wouldn't have been dumped in the Ganga then.

 

[crixus]

Yes. Makes it a propaganda piece.

I live in MH. There was no underreporting. People weren't begging for oxygen and certainly weren't dying on the roads. It was a tough time but was being managed.

From 28% to 6% Positivity Rate, How Mumbai Dealt With its Massive Covid-19 Surge

Last week, the Supreme Court lauded the 'Mumbai Model' of handling the second wave of coronavirus. With early preparation of oxygen supply, bed availability and efficient working of its 'war room', the city has managed to reduce its positivity rate to a single digit in the last month.

www.thebetterindia.com

The CM was trying to make 100 crore a month? Where did you get that info?

Wish instead of focussing on elections and threatening common citizens for reporting oxygen shortage, CM of states like UP had focussed on saving lives. Bodies wouldn't have been dumped in the Ganga then.

This what NDTV says about Maharashtra 5 million positive sofar 79000 dead officially and god knows how many unofficially and CM is doing an awesome job...

I am assuming you are not considering NDTV as propaganda

NDTV.com

Coronavirus Outbreak: Find the latest worldwide information and live news from NDTV related to COVID-19 cases, deaths caused, prevention measures, helplines, hospitals and other facts.

www.ndtv.com

Regarding 100 crores focus was on making 100 crores then on containg th covid

Anil Deshmukh asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 cr for him per month: Ex-Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh

Anil Deshmukh asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 cr for him per month: Ex-Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh

In a letter to Chief Minister Uddhav Thackeray, former Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh has alleged that Maharashtra Home Minister Anil Deshmukh had asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 crore for him every month.

www.indiatoday.in

MH govt was more focused on giving answers to Kangna Ranaut than to save lives

‘Ukhaad diya’: Shiv Sena mouthpiece Saamana brags about Kangana Ranaut's office demolition​

‘Ukhaad diya’: Shiv Sena mouthpiece Saamana brags about Kangana Ranaut's office demolition

The BJP hit back at the Shiv Sena over the Saamana headline over Kangana Ranaut's office demolition, saying it smells of arrogance.

www.timesnownews.com

 

[Jackdaws]

This what NDTV says about Maharashtra 5 million positive sofar 79000 dead officially and god knows how many unofficially and CM is doing an awesome job...

I am assuming you are not considering NDTV as propaganda

View attachment 20874

NDTV.com

Coronavirus Outbreak: Find the latest worldwide information and live news from NDTV related to COVID-19 cases, deaths caused, prevention measures, helplines, hospitals and other facts.

www.ndtv.com

Regarding 100 crores focus was on making 100 crores then on containg th covid

Anil Deshmukh asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 cr for him per month: Ex-Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh

Anil Deshmukh asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 cr for him per month: Ex-Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh

In a letter to Chief Minister Uddhav Thackeray, former Mumbai Police chief Param Bir Singh has alleged that Maharashtra Home Minister Anil Deshmukh had asked Sachin Vaze to collect Rs 100 crore for him every month.

www.indiatoday.in

MH govt was more focused on giving answers to Kangna Ranaut than to save lives

‘Ukhaad diya’: Shiv Sena mouthpiece Saamana brags about Kangana Ranaut's office demolition​

‘Ukhaad diya’: Shiv Sena mouthpiece Saamana brags about Kangana Ranaut's office demolition

The BJP hit back at the Shiv Sena over the Saamana headline over Kangana Ranaut's office demolition, saying it smells of arrogance.

www.timesnownews.com

Anil Deshmukh was HM, not CM. You specifically said CM. And Parambir Singh's allegation is being probed. It might be true - Deshmukh is from NCP - the same party of Pawars which sneakily tried to seize power with the BJP despite not having the numbers through Ajit Pawar.


Do you have any basis for "God knows how many unofficially"?

This is what the Supreme Court of India says based on the facts and figures it has

Is the Supreme Court of India lying?

 

[crixus]

Anil Deshmukh was HM, not CM. You specifically said CM. And Parambir Singh's allegation is being probed. It might be true - Deshmukh is from NCP - the same party of Pawars which sneakily tried to seize power with the BJP despite not having the numbers through Ajit Pawar.


Do you have any basis for "God knows how many unofficially"?

This is what the Supreme Court of India says based on the facts and figures it has

Is the Supreme Court of India lying?

CM is the head of the council of ministers, he directly indirectly responsible for the activities of his ministers.

Yes, Anil Deshmukh was HM not CM, but if a HM is illegally generating 100 crores a month from one city , during pandemic , what its shows about the CM

The basis of god know is from the example of NY state last year, where a lot of people died without being included in official figures.

Good luck with praise from the Supreme court if it can compensate the death of 79000 innocent people and 5 million positive cases. and I can't blame any govt because it's due to the Chinese virus.

Hope you remember the basis on which Abhishek Manu Singhvi used to recommend the judges .... so do'nt take the statement of judges at their face value , use your own wisdom to quantify it

There is no reason for both of us to argue on deads as fellow Indians are dying or facing an oxygen shortage due to the Chinese virus. The only purpose of the thread is that this is not right time for the stories which these vulture journos are writing and even selling even the pics of pyres for 23000Rs

 

[Jackdaws]

CM is the head of the council of ministers, he directly indirectly responsible for the activities of his ministers.

Yes, Anil Deshmukh was HM not CM, but if a HM is illegally generating 100 crores a month from one city , during pandemic , what its shows about the CM

The basis of god know is from the example of NY state last year, where a lot of people died without being included in official figures.

Good luck with praise from the Supreme court if it can compensate the death of 79000 innocent people and 5 million positive cases. and I can't blame any govt because it's due to the Chinese virus.

Hope you remember the basis on which Abhishek Manu Singhvi used to recommend the judges .... so do'nt take the statement of judges at their face value , use your own wisdom to quantify it

There is no reason for both of us to argue on deads as fellow Indians are dying or facing an oxygen shortage due to the Chinese virus. The only purpose of the thread is that this is not right time for the stories which these vulture journos are writing and even selling even the pics of pyres for 23000Rs

It's quite possible that the former HM was corrupt - NCP as a party is known for this.

I hope you understand that by making foreign sounding media outlets overnight with names similar to reputed and old news outlets like The Guardian and The Australian - is not going to wish away Corona.

How does what Cuomo did in NY relate to what is happening in MH? Do you have any connection between the 2 states?

 

[crixus]

It's quite possible that the former HM was corrupt - NCP as a party is known for this.

I hope you understand that by making foreign sounding media outlets overnight with names similar to reputed and old news outlets like The Guardian and The Australian - is not going to wish away Corona.

How does what Cuomo did in NY relate to what is happening in MH? Do you have any connection between the 2 states?

CM is responsible for the activities of his ministers. The reason I compared NY with MH and NY city with Mumbai is due to the below reasons :

1) Both Mumbai and NY are financial capitals so hitting them will hurt the countries most
2) Both states have a considerable share of GDP for their respective countries
3) A lot of people move to those cities for work so corona and its effects will get have nationwide impact.
4) Both India and the US are the biggest regional and international challenger for China so its quite possible both are targets of this biowarfare



And regarding the publications, how many cemetery pictures you have seen from western countries like the US, England, Italy, Spain during the pandemic. In Italy people literally died on the streets and they let old people die to save the young population but the press was sane enough to avoid the vulture journalism in the middle of the pandemic. You know the American press knows the situation of Roosevelt during the second world war they even have pictures but they never published them during the war.

Regarding the west-sounding names so with the same logic, we have ignored all Indians who are writing anything in western sounding publications.
Just one question did they publish the permission of family members before clicking the pics of deads and the Shamshan ghats and the count of deads becomes useless for those who have lost the loved ones. I think I don't need to explain how personal the funeral is for the family members.

@Nilgiri add anything you want to add

 

[Jackdaws]

CM is responsible for the activities of his ministers. The reason I compared NY with MH and NY city with Mumbai is due to the below reasons :

1) Both Mumbai and NY are financial capitals so hitting them will hurt the countries most
2) Both states have a considerable share of GDP for their respective countries
3) A lot of people move to those cities for work so corona and its effects will get have nationwide impact.
4) Both India and the US are the biggest regional and international challenger for China so its quite possible both are targets of this biowarfare



And regarding the publications, how many cemetery pictures you have seen from western countries like the US, England, Italy, Spain during the pandemic. In Italy people literally died on the streets and they let old people die to save the young population but the press was sane enough to avoid the vulture journalism in the middle of the pandemic. You know the American press knows the situation of Roosevelt during the second world war they even have pictures but they never published them during the war.

Regarding the west-sounding names so with the same logic, we have ignored all Indians who are writing anything in western sounding publications.
Just one question did they publish the permission of family members before clicking the pics of deads and the Shamshan ghats and the count of deads becomes useless for those who have lost the loved ones. I think I don't need to explain how personal the funeral is for the family members.

@Nilgiri add anything you want to add

I saw a lot of pics of Italy and New York. They were all over the press.

So you are merely comparing the two cities. As such you have no real basis for "God knows how many unofficially"?

 

[crixus]

I saw a lot of pics of Italy and New York. They were all over the press.

Please share the pics of Italy, US, and UK cemeteries during Corona ...... regarding unofficial Do you think only those who are tested positive and died are the ones who died due to Corona? Think yourself why only financial capitals are the ones that are worse hit by Corona? If it's population then Kolkata and Delhi have a comparable population, but Mumbai gets worse hit. It will be really unwise to blame CM for it, but it definitely provides food for thought. Regarding the article you dodged the question so do we consider the Indian writing in western sounding media as nonserious and consider their articles as Propaganda ........ this is not the right time to scare people by showing them pictures of pyres, I didn't see any permission taken by the journalists from bereaved families before showing their dead family members

 

[Jackdaws]

Please share the pics of Italy, US, and UK cemeteries during Corona ...... regarding unofficial Do you think only those who are tested positive and died are the ones who died due to Corona? Think yourself why only financial capitals are the ones that are worse hit by Corona? If it's population then Kolkata and Delhi have a comparable population, but Mumbai gets worse hit. It will be really unwise to blame CM for it, but it definitely provides food for thought. Regarding the article you dodged the question so do we consider the Indian writing in western sounding media as nonserious and consider their articles as Propaganda ........ this is not the right time to scare people by showing them pictures of pyres, I didn't see any permission taken by the journalists from bereaved families before showing their dead family members

But what's the basis of "God knows how many unofficially"?

Sure - Google "Hart Island dead bodies"

Italy's coronavirus patients are dying alone | CNN

Italy appears to have the highest novel coronavirus death rate in the world even with the government imposing tight restrictions on its citizens. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

edition.cnn.com

 

[crixus]

But what's the basis of "God knows how many unofficially"?

Sure - Google "Hart Island dead bodies"

Italy's coronavirus patients are dying alone | CNN

Italy appears to have the highest novel coronavirus death rate in the world even with the government imposing tight restrictions on its citizens. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

edition.cnn.com

The video posted by you does not show any cemetery.

Regarding unofficial please listen to the Indian secular journo speaking to a western sounding publishing house, you are not believing me hope you believe her :

listen at 01:02

 

[crixus]

This is a prime example of a D grade journo, a cheap actor and premium class vulture using the death of family member for her selfish goals :

Just FYI her father got treatment in Medanta which not even 1% of Indians can afford

Super Speciality Hospital | Best Healthcare Hospital in India

Medanta is a super-specialty healthcare hospital in India, that provides world-class proven treatment including heart, liver, and kidney transplants, & cancer treatments. Call to book an appointment.

www.medanta.org

 

[Jackdaws]

The video posted by you does not show any cemetery.

Regarding unofficial please listen to the Indian secular journo speaking to a western sounding publishing house, you are not believing me hope you believe her :

listen at 01:02

That's why I asked to Google Hart Island. Here you go

Coronavirus: New York ramps up mass burials amid outbreak

Drone footage shows coffins stacked in a pit in the city, as the state logs more cases than any country.

www.bbc.com

Is Rana Ayub speaking specifically about Mumbai which you referred to when you said "God knows how many unofficially"? Or India in general?

 

[Nilgiri]

Quoting for @rainmaker convenience to see my thoughts on the issue overall:

The buck stops at Modi govt in many ways (along with a number of state govts that have handled this extra bad).

That cannot be denied. They have messed up on huge number of fronts (where govt is concerned and has responsibility) that have been discussed in some depth in the India corona thread.

Indian media is daily doing its job in holding all involved feet to the fire. Just like it was done and continue to be done in the West and other countries that developed this crucial institution for the citizen's access to information....when the massive lapses happened there w.r.t covid.

First step to dealing with a problem is openly showing it is there (and the failures associated with creating the problem).

One can contrast this with the place where the virus originally started....w.r.t media independence and credibility....and the final culpability that rests with that regime given the crucial early months.

It is different subject to get into. You don't test, you don't have a problem (officially).

We simply don't have any real information on countries that do very little testing or are opaque in their media narratives.

Extreme case is source of contagion (PRC), anyone honest+reasonable believe the numbers they (govt) have put out given the total lack of media freedom there? In fact they were busy locking up and jailing journalists that were covering things outside of the party line....during the crucial initial months and ended up adding to the suppressing of information to see how lethal this would be for the whole world later.

If people criticize that govt/country fairly (and with appropriate intensity) before they do India's current crisis (and also hold their own govts feet to fire if its low testing + low info regime) , they earn credibility IMO.

In the end anyway it will show up in the raw mortality numbers in end of year, population surveys and census etc....to compare with the average number of deaths in previous years.



I don't like the bulk of Indian TV media.....especially those that are clear sycophants for ruling govt/party or sycophants for opposition.

Lately I just follow "The Print" and a few specific journalists/twitter handles I know are credible and relatively independent and non-partisan.

The extra virulent strain is just one factor that caused this second wave tragedy (striking past India's greater institutional basis relative to the region)

- There was gross under-preparation by certain states (relative to their means + capacities), this is playing out in different states performance right now in handling it. Delhi has been especially bad.

- Spread by religious gathering, political rally etc, when these could have been totally avoided along with other activities outside of basic economic livelihood (w.r.t opening up).

- Inadequate central pressure on states run by it (NDA) and states not run by it too w.r.t above on the things (O2 capacity etc) that they are pointing fingers at each other now. I understand health is a state issue in the end, but centre did not apply full pressure + followup (on things like onsite O2 generation that was started last year) where it should have to get the job done.

- No clear technocratic apolitical taskforce set up last year when 1st crisis and lockdown happened, so that any future emergencies like this one had as many non-politicians running it as possible without political interference. Rather than just have some advisors for health ministry. Such a taskforce would have likely done the lab testing/analysis at scale (which was not done, a big miss by India's developed capacity in the end) to detect new strains well and direct policy to steer for the extra transmission rate they give.

- Vaccination program just lacking the succour of full logistical utilisation. It needed big information campaign like was done for swacch bharat.....an participation of private sector past the biggest hospitals. There was big mismatch of doses available and uptake by citizenry for crucial weeks prior to the 2nd wave.

Politicians are good at taking credit or deflecting to something they can...... but not criticism.

They will not admit this failure is what is going to sting extra hard.

Thank God for the spread of journalists on the ground, imagine if India was totalitarian state that just let millions die because it doesnt even report the problem on ground to population to apply pressure on forces that be.

 

[crixus]

That's why I asked to Google Hart Island. Here you go

Coronavirus: New York ramps up mass burials amid outbreak

Drone footage shows coffins stacked in a pit in the city, as the state logs more cases than any country.

www.bbc.com

Is Rana Ayub speaking specifically about Mumbai which you referred to when you said "God knows how many unofficially"? Or India in general?

Again I posted her video just to refer someone who is defining unofficial, as I said I have no base to pass a statement that it's 10 times of the govt official figures but I am sure of one thing, that more people might have died due to covid who were not tested positive or got any medical help as the same thing happened in US too and most probably in Brazil , UK and Italy .

NY times article about unofficial Covid deaths in US

Why We Don’t Know the True Death Rate for Covid-19 (Published 2020)

Determining what percentage of those infected by the coronavirus will die is a key question for epidemiologists, but an elusive one during the pandemic.

www.nytimes.com

Hope it will help

Regarding NY, people know their right you cant click a pic and publish without permission. In India, no one has shown any permission taken from the family members of the deceased.

My only reason to mention MH is as its badly hit by covid and the financial capital was standstill for a pretty long period due to Covid

 

[Jackdaws]

Again I posted her video just to refer someone who is defining unofficial, as I said I have no base to pass a statement that it's 10 times of the govt official figures but I am sure of one thing, that more people might have died due to covid who were not tested positive or got any medical help as the same thing happened in US too and most probably in Brazil , UK and Italy .

NY times article about unofficial Covid deaths in US

Why We Don’t Know the True Death Rate for Covid-19 (Published 2020)

Determining what percentage of those infected by the coronavirus will die is a key question for epidemiologists, but an elusive one during the pandemic.

www.nytimes.com

Hope it will help

Regarding NY, people know their right you cant click a pic and publish without permission. In India, no one has shown any permission taken from the family members of the deceased.

My only reason to mention MH is as its badly hit by covid and the financial capital was standstill for a pretty long period due to Covid

I am here. It never went completely off the rails. But point taken.