India India - Pakistan Relations

Kaptaan

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If Pakistan prospers and does better than India
Truth is if the entire region prospers including Afghanistan 90% of problems I rekon would be resolved.

Infact, from what I've read Pak was doing economically better than India right till India adopted the open markets in 1991
Yes, actually over the decades Pakistan was leading. Only in about 2009 did India take the lead. So India being ahead is a novelty and of very recent time. Although some here have allowed to get intoxicated by it and now have began starting death certificates for Pakistan.

1624794535476.png

This year growth again has picked up. I really like the new finance minster - Shaukat Tarin and just pray that under the platform provided by Imran Khan he can cut to carry out structural changes which are holding the country back.
 

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At least you got that right. I have never understood how India, nearlky 7 times larger has behaved like a mouse over Kashmir. There are two ways of looking at Kashmir.

  • either it is India's in which case Pakistan needs to get kicked out POK.
  • either it is Pakistan's in which case India needs to get kicked out of IOK.
Pakistan, despite being the underdog has tried to act on it's stance and made a grab for IOK. This is bizzare considering you would expect India being the larger country to make a grab for POK.

In this game of Tom & Jerry it is Jerry that has been pushing to grab the cheese out Tom's mouth.

In Europe this would be like Belgium pushing Germany around for piece of land. I suspect Belgium would have been erased in 24 hours. Ooops come to think of it that did happen until Allies came and kicked the Krauts out.
I guess that's the difference between a nation-state which abides by international law and its treaties and a nation-state which doesn't. India actually has taken land from Pak occupied Kaskmir when the countries have been at War - Kargil and Turtuk come to mind.

Pakistan's efforts to grab Kashmir, however have been fairly daft by trying to pass off own Army as Mujahideen and then running for an exit to the Americans when the chickens came home to roost.
 
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Jackdaws

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Truth is if the entire region prospers including Afghanistan 90% of problems I rekon would be resolved.


Yes, actually over the decades Pakistan was leading. Only in about 2009 did India take the lead. So India being ahead is a novelty and of very recent time. Although some here have allowed to get intoxicated by it and now have began starting death certificates for Pakistan.

View attachment 24454
This year growth again has picked up. I really like the new finance minster - Shaukat Tarin and just pray that under the platform provided by Imran Khan he can cut to carry out structural changes which are holding the country back.
That's good. Which means Pakistan was ahead of China too till the 1990s I guess because the Indian economy and Chinese economy were pretty much the same size till the Rajiv Gandhi era in the mid 1980s

If Pak does well, as I said, good for them. I don't know how much Pak invested in technical institutes and PSUs like India did but thanks to Nehru, India focussed on that more than most developing nations would. India is reaping the benefits of that today. Bhakts though love Modi - even though his efforts have been laughable in every sphere.
 

Kaptaan

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I guess that's the difference between a nation-state which abides by international law
Sop, did it abide by intenational law when it invaded Portugese Goa? Or what law did it abide when India invaded State of Hydrabad and took part in the massacre of Muslims there.

Hyderabad 1948: India's hidden massacre​




Or which law did India abide by when it nurtured, supported, armed Tamil terrorists in Sri Lanka which led to a three decade bloody war in that country with the distinction that the Hindu Tamil terrorists literally invented the modern concept of suicide bomber. The plot went a tad loopy after India feeliong threatened by the monster it had created decided to cease any further support which led to your late Pm Ranjiv Gandhi being sent down the Ganga after having been blow up by a female Hindu Tamil suicide terrorists.

1624801229237.png

When Rajiv was Blown Up​


India actually has taken land from Pak occupied Kaskmir when the countries have been at War - Kargil and Turtuk come to mind.
Some section have been taken by Pakistan but that still overlooks the point that from Indian stance all is Indian territory which Pakistan took illegaly and retains it.
 

Kaptaan

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I don't know how much Pak invested in technical institutes
The country was doing terrific until end of Ayub Khan;s rule in 1969 but it still was heading in the right direction. 1978, Zia and particularly the Afghan jihad which began from 1980 was disaster. Not so much because of the war itself or even the refugees. The real underlying disaster which I think we still have not recovered from is the unleashing of political Islam thereby bringing the mullahs right into the public sphere. Non of this is related to India or even Kashmir.

It was simple convenient use of religion by Zia to extend his illigitimate rule which converged with Saidia Arabia's lust to spread wahabism and American geo-politics of prostituting Islam to destroy the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Pakista became the forum for this great game to be played out.,

By the time it ended USA got what it wanted by Pakistan was left a with a radicalized society. In this environment to spread Islam to every corner of earth universities, roads, schools, industry and all the other mundane things took a back seat.

All that has changed since 2018. Imran Khan;s top agenda is education, health, social welfare and creating a equitable society or as he calls it 'filahi riasat' or welfare state which is term he uses for the first Musim state of the Media set up by the prophet [pbuh]. The truth is historically that is loads of balloxe.

But what do they say? Differance horses for differant courses. He can't say he want to establish a welfare state and model it on Sweden can he? So he uses the religious inconography and sentiments to in fact do that but ever treading with care lest mullahs go nuts. I did not quite like his method but then thought if it was me I would not get anything done. I would put my manifesto out today and by evening the mobs will have me lynched. The end I guess justofies the means.

So if you look massive schemes have been rolled on education, health, social welfar and environment. All of Khyber Pakhtunkwa now has free health insurance card which can be used in any hospital. This i now being rolled into Punjab and Balochistan as they are also under PTI rule. Only Sindh is left out because they have PPP and MQM rule.
 

Jackdaws

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Sop, did it abide by intenational law when it invaded Portugese Goa? Or what law did it abide when India invaded State of Hydrabad and took part in the massacre of Muslims there.

Hyderabad 1948: India's hidden massacre​




Or which law did India abide by when it nurtured, supported, armed Tamil terrorists in Sri Lanka which led to a three decade bloody war in that country with the distinction that the Hindu Tamil terrorists literally invented the modern concept of suicide bomber. The plot went a tad loopy after India feeliong threatened by the monster it had created decided to cease any further support which led to your late Pm Ranjiv Gandhi being sent down the Ganga after having been blow up by a female Hindu Tamil suicide terrorists.

View attachment 24461

When Rajiv was Blown Up​



Some section have been taken by Pakistan but that still overlooks the point that from Indian stance all is Indian territory which Pakistan took illegaly and retains it.
The move against Portugese Goa was a move against imperial colonialism. Are you saying European countries should have been allowed to have colonies in Asia?

In Hyderabad, India honored the Standstill Agreement signed between the Nizam and Govt. of India. It was the Nizam who broke it. All external affairs were to be conducted by India, not Hyderabad. But the Nizam loaned 15 million $ or Gbp to Pak without the approval of India. So India was well within its legal rights to take action.

What section has been taken by Pakistan? There has been chatter of some vacated peaks during the Kargil Conflict but that's the extent of it. Has any town/village/populated area been captured and held and for good? I don't think so.

What exactly did India do illegally in Lanka? Did it try taking Lankan land illegally? Did it send the IPKF without the assent of the Lankan Govt?
 

Jackdaws

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The country was doing terrific until end of Ayub Khan;s rule in 1969 but it still was heading in the right direction. 1978, Zia and particularly the Afghan jihad which began from 1980 was disaster. Not so much because of the war itself or even the refugees. The real underlying disaster which I think we still have not recovered from is the unleashing of political Islam thereby bringing the mullahs right into the public sphere. Non of this is related to India or even Kashmir.

It was simple convenient use of religion by Zia to extend his illigitimate rule which converged with Saidia Arabia's lust to spread wahabism and American geo-politics of prostituting Islam to destroy the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Pakista became the forum for this great game to be played out.,

By the time it ended USA got what it wanted by Pakistan was left a with a radicalized society. In this environment to spread Islam to every corner of earth universities, roads, schools, industry and all the other mundane things took a back seat.

All that has changed since 2018. Imran Khan;s top agenda is education, health, social welfare and creating a equitable society or as he calls it 'filahi riasat' or welfare state which is term he uses for the first Musim state of the Media set up by the prophet [pbuh]. The truth is historically that is loads of balloxe.

But what do they say? Differance horses for differant courses. He can't say he want to establish a welfare state and model it on Sweden can he? So he uses the religious inconography and sentiments to in fact do that but ever treading with care lest mullahs go nuts. I did not quite like his method but then thought if it was me I would not get anything done. I would put my manifesto out today and by evening the mobs will have me lynched. The end I guess justofies the means.

So if you look massive schemes have been rolled on education, health, social welfar and environment. All of Khyber Pakhtunkwa now has free health insurance card which can be used in any hospital. This i now being rolled into Punjab and Balochistan as they are also under PTI rule. Only Sindh is left out because they have PPP and MQM rule.
On one hand he talks of peace and opens up Kartarpur Sahib for the Sikh pilgrims and on the other he calls Osama a martyr.

He continues to say he believes in peace with India - I guess that's good. Subcontinent deserves its peace. But there is no common ground to talk about Kashmir. India and Pak both think all of Kashmir is rightfully theirs. What exactly are they going to talk about?
 

crixus

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Media is like mouths. They all have agenda. I think most know about Islamic fundamentalism that has birthed this terror. The biggest culprits for that are USA, the West and Saudia Arabia. You even see now how they are supporting radicals in Syria while trying to destroy the secular government in that country. Ditto Libya.

With regards to the specific link you posted I expect lot of this over the next year. USA and NATO are really pissed off that they got taken to the cleaners in Afghanistan and are now running out faster then they arrived.

Over all Pakistan is heading in the right direction under Imran Khan.
I know Pakistains are victims of whole world's Propaganda .

Couple of
1) Osama bin Laden living in Abbotabad is west's propaganda
2) Khalid Sheikh Mhoammed was a Pakistani seems like west's propagana
3) Illiyas Kashmiri is actually a saint and become a victim of propaganda
4) Daood Syed Gilani a.k.a David Coleman Haidley has some basic relations with the group of saints known as Lashkar - e Toiba
5) All the terrorist attacks in UK in last twenty years has some kind of weird relations with Pakistan.
6)No Pakistani killed people on streets in Paris
7) Pakistanis were never engaged in the attack on time square with the van full of explosives
8) No Pakistani is involved in 2008 Mumbai attacks , as Pakistais say it was a false flag operation and it was "PROPAGANDA" against Pakistan

Seems like all is propaganda .

Thanks to Saradar Vallabhi Patel for flushing the filth on west side of redcliff in 1947 , other wise it will utterly huliliating to live in west with stigma of being from a country from were all most all terrorist activites originates .

Glad we are not talking and hopefully never will . Atleat we are agree on one fact that your current PM is taking the right direction I dont know about Pakistan but his direction definetely suits India
 
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Kaptaan

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I know Pakistains are victims of whole world's Propaganda .
Actually I used to think that also until the River Ganga got chocked with dead bodies dumped by Modi's super government in order to hide death rates. Then when some media dared report it half of India went crazy calling anybody daring to report this expose of miracle that is India by calling them 'vulture journalism'. You guys have exemplary skill with coming up inane soundbites like 'vulture journalism' or 'love jihad' or 'cow mata' after you killed some poor Muslim dalit for daring to eat some beat.

But I got to admit the 'vulture journalism' to deflect from the epic cockup of the India virus which chocked your rivers up and increased price of even funeral pyres - alluding to the scale of deaths certainly takes the cake.

Editor's Take

If Journalists Are Vultures, I'm Happy To Be A Vulture-in-Chief​


The idea of journalists as no better than vultures has gained currency, at least among sections who wish to undermine the reporting on the migrant crisis.​


https://YOUR POSTS ARE SPAM. IT WIL...es-im-happy-to-be-the-vulture-in-chief/353879

So India wins the medal for victimhood. Well done !


 

crixus

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Actually I used to think that also until the River Ganga got chocked with dead bodies dumped by Modi's super government in order to hide death rates. Then when some media dared report it half of India went crazy calling anybody daring to report this expose of miracle that is India by calling them 'vulture journalism'. You guys have exemplary skill with coming up inane soundbites like 'vulture journalism' or 'love jihad' or 'cow mata' after you killed some poor Muslim dalit for daring to eat some beat.

But I got to admit the 'vulture journalism' to deflect from the epic cockup of the India virus which chocked your rivers up and increased price of even funeral pyres - alluding to the scale of deaths certainly takes the cake.

Editor's Take

If Journalists Are Vultures, I'm Happy To Be A Vulture-in-Chief​


The idea of journalists as no better than vultures has gained currency, at least among sections who wish to undermine the reporting on the migrant crisis.​


https://YOUR POSTS ARE SPAM. IT WIL...es-im-happy-to-be-the-vulture-in-chief/353879

So India wins the medal for victimhood. Well done !


Ha ha ha , comparision of your own country men who are on killing spree in European cities with the covid deaths in India .

But seems like cat got the tounge when the examples of the , acts of your fellow country men is shared and swiped under the rug with the tag of Propaganda .

Anyways , hopefully the covid deaths in India will wash aways the terrorist tag from the forehead a specific country .

And never ever talk to a country with River Ganga which is choked with dead bodies , Gao Mutra and regarding killing muslims , you are attaching the screenshots , just check where more muslims are getting killed in Muslim countries or in India and you will get your answer . As you compared Indian governance again thanks to Sardar P atel for flushing the filth on west side of Redcliff that now atleast we have right to elect our govt after every 5 years.
 
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Nilgiri

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That's good. Which means Pakistan was ahead of China too till the 1990s I guess because the Indian economy and Chinese economy were pretty much the same size till the Rajiv Gandhi era in the mid 1980s

GDP measure for developing (non-integrated) economies during cold war is extremely overrated and flawed.

There was barely any trade (certainly little with open capital account) going on....compared to say the trade between developed countries and their trade with highly resource-surplus countries.

Thus the USD exchange rate with the currencies used by developing countries was extremely limited in scope to extrapolate.

It was mostly related to aid intensity from the USD providers....explaining several artificial bumps (with little to no impact on the populace underlying dev) found in the era (that similarly receded as that situation changed post cold war).

This only improved during post cold war era as such economies opened up their current and capital account controls....and had the institutions and cultivated and pragmatic brainpower to absorb and deploy this well.

That is how we now see the actual realisation of the institution, HR and their combined economic potential of such countries.

This is also why GDP (nominal) remains well behind in effective quality (both as an economic or development measure) compared to PPP and constant GDP dollars etc.

India in the region certainly did better in cold war w.r.t Education, Health, HR and institutional parameters that allowed it to capture lot more during the reform period (by abandoning dogmatic socialist principles) that started in 90s. But India obviously could have done far better too globally speaking ,it has several unique issues it did not address well that remains ongoing process.

But overall HDI for example can be compared for a better take on this during this era (a far better measure than cold war GDP). India always did better compared to Pakistan and has certainly now harnessed that underlying development better too.

It is why there is now a 15 year lead on such things as infant mortality rate. It is why even the most impoverished states of India have better demographic indicators (TFR, life expectancy, literacy rate) than any place in Pakistan.

India also has plenty of successes to learn from within itself (state-wise) in various areas, to deploy in lagging states.

======================================================================

So trumping up some cold war numbers is much like doing the same for North Korea....which enjoyed (by extensive aid given by USSR and its far greater inheritance of heavy industry from the Japanese) considerable "lead" over its Southern peer for majority of the cold war (this would only reverse in the 80s and then expand massively in the 90s).

One can also question (on similar themes asserted in this thread) why North Korea has not been resolved given its population differential with South Korea and Japan (and the US for that matter). Are North Koreans really that much more militaristically potent (say 10:1 often claimed by our neighbour) compared to South Korea+Japan+US...or is it case of geopolitical umbrella-protection + aid-intensity + deterrence proliferation (from those that have surplus of these in any era) that helps/guarantees the political survival?

Let us not forget that there is no somewhat contained crux of issue like Kashmir between the two koreas, both claim the other in their entirety and do not recognise each others basic political existence even.

Thus hermit states that latch onto becoming full client states + assured nuclear umbrella and then have nuclear proliferated transfer to them by the same patron have certain things in common.....as do ones that integrate (with as many other countries, esp developed markets) and broaden their economic girth long term.

No one is talking about "disintegration" of such hermit states and similar, that is not something that can be predicted (or even desired).....and in fact would very likely be dangerous proposition while nuclear weapons remain the apex of deterrence technology.

Actual countries that dont want to atrophy or incline towards hermithood (or extreme mono-patron reliance for basic sustenance) simply take the route of growing and enriching themselves soundly while cultivating a good spread of options for the long term, to have the next generation of technologies to make the earlier ones redundant.

So in the long term, neighbourhood mistakes done by too much weakness+poverty can be corrected when and if that situation should arise.

If the threat wants to stay as weak and poor as possible to cling onto whatever psychology and reliance, they only seal their fate even more.

We are at 7k and marching quickly to 10k patents granted globally per year (an actual physical measure that can be vetted w.r.t where we are coming from and going to in regards to long term knowledge economy foundations).

I don't need to tell you if you divide that by 6, should be an approx reference for another population 6 times less than ours...to be doing "about the same".

The fact that place went from "34" to less than 20 in the most recent year (and has always stagnated around this number for a very long time now) can show you the differential in its final intellectual deployment for actual economic growth compared to what any apologist might claim or deflect to.

It is clearly not 6 times less, or even 20 times less or even 100 times less.

It is more like 350 times less....essentially Pakistan is granted patents internationally 60 times less per capita than India.

It is further evidenced by market capitalisation and so on...in fact any actual real number that concretely governs investment and economic potential.

But then again thanks to its elitists psychology (of utter mismanaged extremist-islamist-militarism and special degree of corruption that grows from that) causing the level of sustained long term hidden inflation (and only 0.000001% of their "forum" "affluent" population even reads the SBP papers to even know about this, much less try understand it), it is stuck with savings per capita somewhere between Chad and Somalia....and a sustained decade of that in rearview as has happened sets the basic growth potential for a decade or two naturally.

So which one is worse (savings/investment or the intellect/knowledge intensity) is really matter of chicken and the egg now.

Insular sustained low-development hermithood (shielded by nuclear weapons as long as they remain frontier deterrence) is nearly guaranteed for first half of this century at least.

That window is effectively governed only by proven supplanting of next generation technologies (that renders current nuclear weapons and their delivery systems obsolete)....that only the most powerful and richest can do...that all takes actual economic girth and knowledge to take shape in sufficient intensity in the largest populations.

The divergence on this between these two will only grow.

It is why international institutions (and several of their own economists) rubbished even their claimed low growth rate of 4%. You just cannot have any actual meaningful growth as long as your investment+savings+gross capital formation stay in the very low % of GDP.

i.e There are a number of crucial things hard baked in now (and have high effect on actual REAL growth) that will take literal decades to undo if they start right now....but they are not starting is the point.

Hence the continued loan cycle dependence and even the Chinese banks now refusing to renegotiate any of the earlier terms agreed upon for those loans. Then the convenient excuse to cue "hidden economy" or whatever conspiracy theory.

If they have doubled down on what they did in 1971, to let that psychology sink in deeply...everything else is merely a small footnote to that now. The Zia-slamism was pretty much inevitable acceleration of it....and now the establishment cannot backtrack (or even be seen to) and bring their cushy existence into any kind of challenge.

Compare all that with North Korea again (past the shared "umbrella" patron entity of both, though one that refuses to become an actual market for even their limited wares) .....just the insularity degree and (type of fundamentalist psyche) context is somewhat different.

We can see how this evolves this decade too. You don't change the psychology of your most powerful, you just dig further into the hole you are in....the regular laypeople just end up suffering the relative effects even more.
 

crixus

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  • Imran Khan spoke at length about the kind of foreign relation he envisions Pakistan having with the US after the process of withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan concludes
By hindustantimes.com | Edited by Ayshee Bhaduri, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
PUBLISHED ON JUN 26, 2021 04:57 PM IST
Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan in an interview to the New York Times said he knows India better than all other Pakistanis and has enjoyed “love and respect” from the country because of the two nations' shared love for cricket. “You know, probably out of all the Pakistanis, I know India better than all of them. I have had love and respect from India [more] than any one because cricket is a big sport. It’s almost religion in both the countries,” the legendary former cricketer said.

He expressed disappointment on being unable to normalise trade ties with India despite reaching out after assuming office, adding that a “civilised trading relationship” would be beneficial for both countries.
“So when I assumed office, the first thing I did was I made this approach to Prime Minister Modi and said that, 'Look, my main objective for coming to power is to alleviate poverty in Pakistan.' And the best way would be if India and Pakistan had a normal, civilised trading relationship. It would benefit both the countries,” Khan said.
“I think that it is a peculiar ideology of the RSS, which Narendra Modi belongs to, which just came up against a brick wall. And, therefore, the answer to your question is yes. Had there been another Indian leadership, I think we would have had a good relationship with them. And yes, we would have resolved all our differences through dialogue,” he added.


Also Read: Pakistan fails to get out of FATF’s grey list
Khan also spoke at length about the kind of foreign relation he envisions Pakistan having with the US after the process of withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan concludes, stating it is similar to the kind of relation the US shares with UK and India US. Which would be more “even handed” than the one both countries shared during the “war on terror”. During which the “US felt that they were giving aid to Pakistan, they felt that Pakistan then had to do US’s bidding,”
"Now, after the US leaves Afghanistan, basically Pakistan would want a civilised relationship, which you have between nations, and we would like to improve our trading relationship with the US,” he said.

Khan expressed uncertainty about the kind of military relationship that the two countries would share post US withdrawal from Afghanistan."Post the US withdrawal, I don’t know what sort of military relationship it will be. But right now, the relationship should be based on this common objective that there is a political solution in Afghanistan before the United States leaves," he said.
On being asked if Pakistan will recognise a Taliban led government in Afghanistan Khan stated, “Pakistan will only recognize a government which is chosen by the people of Afghanistan, whichever government they choose."
While pledging his full support to the President Ashraf Ghani-led government in Afghanistan, he asserted that Pakistan will not be taking “military action” against Taliban, and in case they try to take over Afghanistan then Pakistan “will seal the border, because now we can, because we have fenced our border (Durand line), which was previously [open], because Pakistan does not want to get into, number one, conflict. Secondly, we do not want another influx of refugees."

Khan said that the signing of the deal in Doha on February 29, 2020 between US and Afghanistan which would allow US troops to return home diminished Pakistan’s leverage over the Taliban because “the moment the United States gave a date of exit, Taliban basically claimed victory. They’re thinking that they won the war. And so therefore, our ability to influence them diminishes the stronger they feel."
Khan also commented on Kashmir during his interview stating "I think it’s a disaster for India because it will just mean that this conflict festers on and on … and (prevents) any relationship — normal relationship — between Pakistan and India."

@Jackdaws @Nilgiri @Zapper @FalconSlayersDFI
 

Jackdaws

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He always says such stuff. "No one knows the
West like I do. No one knows India like I do." Is weird to say the least. Sometimes takes the maximalist liberal position talking about equality on the other hand calls Osama a martyr.
 

Raptor

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What?
Improving relations by supplying drones to non-state actors and attacking military installation.
Soon this fake ceasefire agreement would be thrown to dustbin.
 

crixus

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He always says such stuff. "No one knows the
West like I do. No one knows India like I do." Is weird to say the least. Sometimes takes the maximalist liberal position talking about equality on the other hand calls Osama a martyr.
He seems to be only expert who knows the border of Japan and Germany...other then him no one has ever visited the border
 
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FalconSlayersDFI

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@Kaptaan what an achievement , even German media is making documentary on Pakistani's achievemnet in Europe , America , Asia and Australia .

I’ve literally seen pashtoon and punjabi terrorists of pakistan roaming in the streets of kashmir in 2000s when I was a kid and it was a time of law lessness. These pakistanis are still in denial mode, lol. That’s why we have darra made M4s found in Kashmir. Their army chief says we made lashkar e taeba in an interview to wajahat khan, typical pakistani.
 
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FalconSlayersDFI

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That's good. Which means Pakistan was ahead of China too till the 1990s I guess because the Indian economy and Chinese economy were pretty much the same size till the Rajiv Gandhi era in the mid 1980s

If Pak does well, as I said, good for them. I don't know how much Pak invested in technical institutes and PSUs like India did but thanks to Nehru, India focussed on that more than most developing nations would. India is reaping the benefits of that today. Bhakts though love Modi - even though his efforts have been laughable in every sphere.
Nehru did what was right that time, modi is doing what is right today, if you still belive in congress in today’s date then you’re doing a big mistake.
 

Jackdaws

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I’ve literally seen pashtoon and punjabi terrorists of pakistan roaming in the streets of kashmir in 2000s when I was a kid and it was a time of law lessness. These pakistanis are still in denial mode, lol. That’s why we have darra made M4s found in Kashmir. Their army chief says we made lashkar e taeba in an interview to wajahat khan, typical pakistani.
I've heard about that. Must have been quite bizarre.
 
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