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rai456

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So those Rafales are for Vikrant and TEDBF for Vikramaditya to replace the Migs... Tbh I still don't see the point of the program. The artice mentioned Rafale as an "interim" arrangement but in my eyes TEDBF is the real interim before AMCA arrives, and a possible naval variant of it.

You've mentioned that the chances of TEDBF progressing as-is would be low but are there more details to it? It is indeed way more logical to just skip this TEDBF idea all together.
Starting off with a groud based jet and trying to convert it to a deck based fighter is almost always a bad idea. It is usually a better idea to design a deck based fighter and convert that for ground based operation. A new clean sheet design for a naval fighter using learning from the AMCA program might be easier than trying to convert the AMCA to carrier operations with the TEDBF serving in the interim.

The Mig-29K and Su-33 are good examples of this. The Russians were not able to ruggedized them enough for successful carrier operations. Some of it is due to the lack of Russian capabilities and funding but it also shows why converting ground based fighters for carier operations is hard.

The 40 Mig-29k that India currently has is theoretically enough for India's two carirers as they are relatively small and India isn't going to be operating both at the same time. Even the UK with its much larger carriers only intends to have 48 F-35Bs for their two carriers.

My guess would be that the IN probably intended for the Migs to operate off both carriers with the TEDBF replacing them in the 2030s when the Migs would be up for retirement. However because of the poor serviceablility of the Migs they felt that they need a new jet before 2030 and as the Rafale is already operated by the airforce ordering some for the IN makes the most sense. The naval Rafale can even be transferred to the Air force after the TEDBF is in production if they want to only operate one naval fighter in the future to simplify logistics.
 

Nilgiri

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The Indian Navy has re-initiated the programme to buy 6 more Boeing P8I Long Range Maritime Reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft from the US under a multi-billion-dollar Government-to-Government deal which stalled after the expiry of the price offer on July 31.

“A restated Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) has been sought from USG (US Government),” Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R Hari Kumar told Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

This is the first public statement from the Indian Navy affirming that the P8I deal is still on the table. It also provides a clear indication that the decks have been cleared for fresh price negotiations for the procurement of additional numbers of this key force multiplier, which is a prominent symbol of India-US military cooperation.

“Based on the response from US side, the case would be progressed further for procurement under Buy Global route,” Admiral Hari Kumar stated.

Under its Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process for Government-to-Government Defence deals, the Letter of Offer and Acceptance is issued by the US Government for signature after the conclusion of price negotiations with the buying country. It is akin to a contract document.

The Indian Navy Chief’s statement indicates that the two sides will pick up the thread from where it was left on July 31, and that this procurement programme would not have to be run afresh. The re-negotiated price would first have to be cleared by India’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by the Defence Minister and then the case put up for final approval to the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by the Prime Minister before the deal can be signed.

The stalling of the deal following the expiry of the initial price offer validity was first reported by Businessworld on August 1. It represented a setback to the Indian Navy’s plan to beef up its maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare capability.

Several critical military procurements though the import route were either scrapped or put on a deferred list after India’s Aatmanirbhar Bharat (self-reliant India) policy reinforcement last year. Admiral Hari Kumar’s statement is an indication that the Indian Navy stood its ground on the import of the P8Is and was able to convince the political decision-makers about the necessity of these force multipliers representing a capability which cannot be indigenised in the near term.

As reported by Businessworld earlier, the Indian Navy operates 12 P8Is, of which 8 are based at the naval airbase INS Rajali in Arakonam on the Eastern Seaboard and 4 at INS Hansa in Goa on the West. The additional P8Is are meant to augment numbers on the Western Seaboard.

The induction of the P8I in 2013 has often been hailed as a game-changer for the Indian Navy’s long-range reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare capabilities, giving it a clear edge over adversaries in the Indian Ocean Region.

A big takeaway is the high availability rate of the P8I for missions, which is reported to be an impressive 85 per cent. This enables intense and sustained reconnaissance operations.

“In the 9 years since 2013, the Indian Navy has done more flying on the P8I than it did on the Soviet-origin Tupolev-142 and Ilyushin-38 fleets combined for four decades,” informed sources pointed out. The Soviet-origin Tu-142 and the Il-38 were the backbones of the Indian Navy maritime reconnaissance operations before the induction of the American P8I.
 

Rajendra Chola

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Another stupid procurement decision from MoD. The original requirement was 24. We ordered 12, then 4, first 12 then reduced to 8 and proceeding. We could have saved more than an billion dollars by ordering 24 of them in a single go.
6 Apaches costed 900m dollars instead of placing them with the original order of 22. Su30 Mk1 is another example. Ordered 272 + 40 in 4 orders. Could have saved lots of money in single order
 

Nilgiri

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The Indian Navy has signed an agreement with Sagar Defence Engineering Pvt. Ltd for armed autonomous boat swarms under ‘SPRINT’, an initiative to promote development of niche defence technologies by domestic companies.

This is the 50th contract under ‘SPRINT’, which aims at the development of 75 indigenous technologies by the industry for the Navy, officials said. The contract was signed on Wednesday.

“We are keeping the pressure on to sign the 100th contract by January end. Our aim is to induct 75 new technologies by August 15, 2023 as part of Azadi ka Amrit Mahotsav,” a Navy official said.

Sagar Defence Engineering has the know-how to create the nation’s first armed autonomous unmanned boat with swarming capabilities, the company said in a statement.

“The agreement refers to an Indian Navy project of the Defence India Start-up Challenge (DISC 7) SPRINT initiative, and the Indian Navy expects to place an order for 12 systems after the construction of the weaponised autonomous unmanned boat,” it stated.

The platform will be able to conduct a range of navy and security tasks including high-speed interdiction; surveillance; constabulary operations; Command, Control, Communications, Computers (C4) Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (C4ISR); and low-intensity maritime operations.

‘SPRINT’ stands for Supporting Pole-vaulting In R&D through Innovations for Defence Excellence (IdeX), Naval Innovation and Indigenisation Organisation (NIIO) and Technology Development Acceleration Cell (TDAC). It was launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi last July.


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Representational image from their website: https://www.sagardefence.com/

1673202048463.png
 

JOYDEEPGHOSH

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Common Sense Dictates – Some Simple Ideas to Boost Defense Preparedness​

April 18, 2023

There are a few commonsensical ideas that we in India can make to match up with the shortfall in defense preparedness. But one question remains, how long IA, IAF, and IN will make do with a 'jugaad'. The last one is not fully my own idea though. 😊 😊 but still read on.

1. Don’t Make Just 2 Frigates @ Goa Shipyard Ltd
Common sense dictates that it will be a foolish idea for India to build 2 Grigorivich-class frigates at Goa, why the reasons are listed below:-
  • a. It takes 4 ships to be built to amortize the investment in manufacturing a certain class of ship under naval requirement as per normal practice, remember for civilian ships it’s a different parameter. So, it will require spending taxpayers' money, to gain experience, training of staff, and infrastructure setup. But to build just 2 ships is a sheer waste of taxpayers' money, time, and investment. Also, the fact that Goa Shipyard doesn’t have experience in building such big ships, also makes it important not to waste money here.
    • a. In Godavari class 1 ship is operational and on its way out. 3 Brahmaputra class ships are fairly new and operational, 6 Talwar class ships are operational and new fairly new. 3 Shivalik class ships are also new and operational. So, the number now adds to 12 only.
    • b. Talks are on to build 4 more Talwar/Trishul ships at Yantar Shipyard. Better ask them to build 6, remember as said above 4+2 in lieu of India working on 2 half-built Grigorivitch-class frigates. That will take the number of Talwar/Trishul/Grigorivich ships to 12. Make no mistake time taken by Yantar to build 1 such ship is almost half of what MDL or GRSE take. It’s a different matter that in shipyards of India we have people working on only 1 shift whereas in foreign shipyards people work on at least 2 shifts daily.
    • c. Plans to build 7 P17A class ships on track with 4 to be built at MDL and 3 at GRSE. But as I said building 4 ships at least makes sense, so better assign GRSE with 4 ships.
    • d. First P17A ship will be commissioned by 2024 only, that way it will have by at least 2035 we may have at least 12 Talwar/Trishul/Grigorivitch ships, 8 P17A ships, 3 Shivaliks, 3 Brahmaputra ships. The count will be 2 more than 24 but by that time at least 1 Brahmaputra ship, the lead vessel will be up for retirement.
    • e. So, in effect by 2040 Indian Navy will have with 23 frigates only. That's 20 years from now.
2. Give GRSE orders to build 1 more of P17A frigate & Ask Yantar Shipyard to build 2 more Frigates

The stated requirement for Indian Navy is 24 frigates. But where are the numbers? Common sense dictates that it's high time MoD, Indian Navy, and shipyards like MDL/GRSE do their maths right.
  • a. In Godavari class 1 ship is operational and on its way out. 3 Brahmaputra class ships are fairly new and operational, 6 Talwar class ships are operational and new fairly new. 3 Shivalik class ships are also new and operational. So, the number now adds to 12 only.
  • b. Talks are on to build 4 more Talwar/Trishul ships at Yantar Shipyard. Better ask them to build 6, remember as said above 4+2 in lieu of India working on 2 half-built Grigorivitch-class frigates. That will take the number of Talwar/Trishul/Grigorivich ships to 12. Make no mistake time taken by Yantar to build 1 such ship is almost half of what MDL or GRSE take. It’s a different matter that in shipyards of India we have people working on only 1 shift whereas in foreign shipyards people work on at least 2 shifts daily.
  • c. Plans to build 7 P17A class ships on track with 4 to be built at MDL and 3 at GRSE. But as I said building 4 ships at least makes sense, so better assign GRSE with 4 ships.
  • d. First P17A ship will be commissioned by 2024 only, that way it will have by at least 2035 we may have at least 12 Talwar/Trishul/Grigorivitch ships, 8 P17A ships, 3 Shivaliks, 3 Brahmaputra ships. The count will be 2 more than 24 but by that time at least 1 Brahmaputra ship, the lead vessel will be up for retirement.
  • e. So, in effect by 2040 Indian Navy will have with 23 frigates only. That's 20 years from no

  • 3. Ask Mazagaon Docks to Build 3 More Scorpenes, P75I should morphe into SSNs & Send Sindhughosh Submarines for Refit only to Hindustan Shipyard, Vizag
    It's all very well known that all 6 Scorpene submarines are about to come out of the Mazagaon docks by 2023. Common sense dictates that:-
    a. After that the production line will lay idle, MoD should not repeat the mistakes with HDW submarines when after 2 submarines the expertise was lost.
    b. These 3 additional submarines will keep the production line busy for at least 6 more years and allow MDL to amortize the investment on that project.
    c. These 9 Scorpenes can be upgraded later in mid-life upgrades to launch the SLCM version of Brahmos mini that can be launched from torpedo tubes.
    d. The 9 Scorpene can also be powered by a DRDO-developed AIP module that may be ready by 2025 only.
    e. P75I should then morph into an SSN project that is a nuclear attack submarine, the requirement is for at least 12 SSNSs with 1 each to protect the 6 SSBNs/SSGNs & other 6 more patrolling the high seas.
    f. People may say IN only has SSBNs & no SSGNs but the fact is after the 3 Arihant class submarines next 3 submarines will be more than double the size of them.
    g. Once these 3 larger boomers with a minimum of 12 missile launch silos capable of firing MIRVed ballistic nuke missiles over 6000 km are launched, the 3 Arihant ‘baby boomers’ with just 4 missile launch silos will be left with no nuke missiles to launch.
    h. As such then it will be prudent to use these baby boomers with just 4 missile silos to launch the much smaller non-nuclear cruise missiles like the SLCM VL version of longest range Nirbhay that will be at least 1400 km & the 600 km range SLCM VL Brahmos.
    i. Sending Sindhughosh submarines for refit only to Hindustan Shipyard, Vizag should be the only thing done instead of sending them to Russia for upgrades as Hindustan Shipyard, Vizag has worked hard to acquire these upgrade skills and it will be foolish to let them waste in idle. Also, it will save the exchequer valuable foreign exchange.
 
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