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Joe Shearer

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Budget for two submarine programs running in parallel!! I don't think so since the subs will be built and delivered through a decade and the payments will be made as such

Budget for P75I has already been allocated and is a done deal. All IN needs to do now is select the appropriate foreign partner and the right sub. IMO, Scorpene 2000 falls in between the current Scorpene and Shortfin Barracuda is IN's best bet to maintain commonality with our ongoing Scorpene fleet
Of course, through this and similar discussions, we have to keep firmly in mind that submarines are defensive systems (not counting the boomers in this point of view) and aircraft carriers, for however many more decades they survive, are offensive systems. It is better to build one's defences first; so even the memory of a childhood life-goal that crumbled into dust does not bar accepting that the carrier component has to play second fiddle to the submarine component, especially against a vastly larger fleet. Having said that and retrieved my conscience, the correct solution is to expand production, not to choose between forced alternatives.
 

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Brilliant - seldom seen a cleaner summary. That is the core of the matter. Really, you outdid yourself. This is when jbgt90 is missed; what he has shared about subterranean procurement prospects and the addle-headed response to those is sorely missing here.

Really good one, @Nilgiri.

When you have a chance, tell him to drop by here again from time to time as he can.

He has made an account as @t90tankguy , but I suppose he is busy a lot.
 

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  • Likely to be based in Karwar (Karnataka), the maritime command will be the sole point for sea operations.
  • All naval commands will fall under a maritime theatre commander.
  • It will comprise warships, submarines, fighter jets, helicopters, etc.
(More at link)
 

Joe Shearer

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When you have a chance, tell him to drop by here again from time to time as he can.

He has made an account as @t90tankguy , but I suppose he is busy a lot.
First, his ill-health, then the totally lunatic work-load that comes with greater responsibilities, and also with a visible slackening of the norms that government servants follow. He shares some very meagre and tight-lipped detail with me, at long intervals, and the situation frightens me. Really frightens me.
 

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How about the possibility to get second hand US carrier Aircraft? There is several Nimitz class pending for decom as soon as Gerard Ford class joint the fleet
 

Nilgiri

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How about the possibility to get second hand US carrier Aircraft? There is several Nimitz class pending for decom as soon as Gerard Ford class joint the fleet

Frankly very expensive (opex) to Indian needs. Refurb costs could be quite high too for remaining service life that can be done that way.

Also US will pull out the nuclear reactor for sure and India will find that too big obstacle to have happen in any such deal...not to mention finding a new reactor or do a conventional replacement study + engineering etc.

That's why I mention kittyhawk (given its conventional power) would have been a more ideal acquisition for IN back when it was winding down....but relations back then were not good enough for it....and timing wise then India already commited to the gorshkov anyway.
 

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Frankly very expensive (opex) to Indian needs. Refurb costs could be quite high too for remaining service life that can be done that way.

Also US will pull out the nuclear reactor for sure and India will find that too big obstacle to have happen in any such deal...not to mention finding a new reactor or do a conventional replacement study + engineering etc.

That's why I mention kittyhawk (given its conventional power) would have been a more ideal acquisition for IN back when it was winding down....but relations back then were not good enough for it....and timing wise then India already commited to the gorshkov anyway.

Well if anything, the US should have no qualm to sold design of Kitty Hawk class to India for further reverse engineering process and giving technical expertise assistance for future India carrier Aircraft programme.
 

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Will india buy super hornet in the future?
 

Nilgiri

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Will india buy super hornet in the future?

Let us see where this negotation for 1 squadron goes for Indian Navy...given they are clearly testing it out.

Then there could be follow up order too.
 

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Let us see where this negotation for 1 squadron goes for Indian Navy...given they are clearly testing it out.

Then there could be follow up order too.
This lease could be an interim solution, and probably India will order new super hornet in the future, when will your new aircraft carrier hit the water?
Then Indian navy will operates tejas, shornet, mig29 oh boy.

Was Tejas not enough? Are Indian navy want double engine jet for more weapon payload and range?
 

Nilgiri

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This lease could be an interim solution, and probably India will order new super hornet in the future, when will your new aircraft carrier hit the water?
Then Indian navy will operates tejas, shornet, mig29 oh boy.

Was Tejas not enough? Are Indian navy want double engine jet for more weapon payload and range?

IAC-1 will hit active duty in 2022 sometime. Right now basin trials is finished and 2021 will be final fitting out and sea trials.

Navy is not interested in N-LCA...it very likely will not be bought. The idea was to further develop it into Twin engine model (TEDBF) that Navy wants...it looks like Navy basically doesn't want a single engine fighter (rationale by USN to reject F-16 and pick YF-17 too, but in reality driven more by inter service rivalry too).

Mig 29 issues (esp maintenance + serviceability) is very reason Super hornet even being considered now.

If super hornet does get leased/acquired, you can consider the TEBDF also very unlikely, as it (SH) will just replace that requirement. There is simply not money or need to keep all these afloat...as it is just 2 carriers at that point and Mig-29 service still there to be stretched out. My personal preference would have been N-LCA only (and develop more production MIC off of it) and accept single engine "risk" as pretty nominal.

Anyway with SH in navy.....it would be SH + Mig29 only and then only SH till 2040+ timeframe....at that point basically LCA progresses to mk 2 model (MWF) for the airforce role of scale only:


If SH doesn't happen, then I guess things get more interesting as to how to solve the Mig 29 issue, something need to compromise.

Hopefully silver lining is that Indian Navy is near fully done with Russian MRO-reliant stuff moving forward.
 

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It was in 2008 that Boeing officially communicated to the Indian Navy that F/A-18 Super Hornet fighters could operate off the (then under refurbishment) Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier. Twelve years later, Boeing has had the US Navy demonstrate a crucial aspect of operations off the Gorshkov (now INS Vikramaditya) — launching the steam catapult-launched Super Hornet off an angled ski-jump. The demonstration was a crucial requirement for Boeing to earn consideration in the Indian Navy’s MRCBF, a contest to procure up to 57 multirole carrier based fighters for current and future aircraft carriers.

Briefing Indian journalists today nearly a month after the US Navy published first details on the ski-jump test conducted in August, Boeing’s Indian fighter programs chief Ankur Kanaglekar said, “Since 2018, Boeing teams have been conducting simulation analysis in partnership with USN, in preparation of the ski-jump trials. The entire test program was developed with safety as a foremost priority. We used a buildup test approach, starting with very conservative conditions and gradually working up to heavier takeoff weights and shorter takeoff distances. The ski jump trials involves an ‘instrumented’ F/A-18 Super Hornet jet (i.e. aircraft that has sensors attached to capture the strains) to measure the increased strain of STOBAR operations. Depending on test objectives, several jumps with different aircraft configuration took place. Each jump was carefully scrutinized by the joint Boeing and USN test team before attempting the next takeoff. The vast amount of data gathered here will help refine the modeling and simulation studies.”

Twelve years ago in 2008, Livefist had reported on Boeing’s simulation findings on the Super Hornet’s compatbility with the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya deck. A portion of those simulations have basically been done in real life with the ski-jump test. While Boeing believes that it has satisfactorily answered other compatbility questions, including deck handling and the Super Hornet’s size vis-a-vis the hangar lift on the Vikramaditya and Vikrant, questions remain.

You can watch our detailed video interview with Boeing’s Kanaglekar from five months ago here.

As Livefist has reported, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet energies in India are focused on the Indian Navy, with the F-15EX to be projected at the Indian Air Force’s separate 110 MRFA (multirole fighter aircraft) requirement. You can read about Boeing’s twin-pronged plans here.

If the Indian Navy’s MRCBF remains on track as a contest, Boeing’s Super Hornet reasonably goes head-to-head with the naval variant of the Dassault Rafale, the shore-based variant of which entered service with the Indian Air Force earlier this year. Aware of the obvious headwinds provided by the reality that the Indian forces currently have two carrier-capable fighter types on hand, Boeing has shaped its pitch around five ‘differentiators’ communicated both to the Indian Navy, as well as in the press briefing today. The differentiators are (a) Boeing making available both single and twin seat versions of the Super Hornet, (b) the fact that the Super Hornet fits in with other US origin assets in the Indian Navy, particularly the P-8I to have a force-multiplier effect, (c) the Indian Navy gains from multi-billion investments made by the US Navy in the Block III Super Hornet, (d) claimed superior economics, and (e) the interoperability boost that such a procurement would provide between the Indian and US navies.

The Indian Navy currently operates a single aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, and is to commission its first indigenous aircraft carrier, the new Vikrant class, in a few years. A debate continues to rage within the procurement system over whether the navy requires a third aircraft carrier (ostensibly a flat-top carrier named the Vishal class), with budgetary pressures likely to shape next steps despite a navy leadership that has lately insisted that a third aircraft carrier is non-negotiable.
 

Zapper

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N-LCA only (and develop more production MIC off of it) and accept single engine "risk" as pretty nominal
Navy rejected N-LCA not just on the basis of being single engined but also it's limited range and fewer hardpoints when compared to the likes of Hornets or Fulcrums.
 

Nilgiri

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Navy rejected N-LCA not just on the basis of being single engined but also it's limited range and fewer hardpoints when compared to the likes of Hornets or Fulcrums.

That is all linked to it being single engined in the end.

It again comes down to do you want to go local MIC and build up more that way mid and long term...or same ole I need the best-est thing out there and keep doing that forking arm and a leg each time and foregoing funding and dev to crucial new areas like SSN and sub expansion.

To me N-LCA (whatever the faults) ticked more than its fair share of boxes and the production number needed was also well within scope too....and with constrained budget it allows way more funding toward things we really need to be doing yesterday.
 

Zapper

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That is all linked to it being single engined in the end.
Not necessarily. I'm sure IN would've gone for the F-35C if offered. Despite being single engined, F-35C fares way better in several aspects

Spec
N-LCA
F-35C
F-18 E/F
MWF
Rafale-M
Empty Wt6560kg15T14.5T7900kg10.3T
Internal Fuel2458kg8958kg6241 kgTBD4700kg
Max SpeedMach 1.6Mach 1.6Mach 1.6Mach 2.0Mach 1.8
Combat Range500km1241km722km1500 km1850km
Service Ceiling50k ft50k ft50k ft50k ft51k ft
Hardpoints810 (4 Int, 6 Ext)111114
Length13.2m15.7m18.3m14.6m15.2m
Wingspan8.2m13.1m13.62m8.5m10.9m
Height4.4m4.48m4.88m4.6m5.34m

The limited range, fuel carrying capacity and hardpoints of N-LCA are just not enough for carrier borne ops

I'm all in for indigenization and IN should request ADA for an N-MWF variant instead of the TEDBF. MWF's airforce version design has been frozen and metal cutting for prototypes is scheduled next year which would be relatively easier to develop a naval variant. It's specs are also fairly similar to other carrier borne fighters. Developing the TEDBF from scratch means allocating significant time and resources with the timeline going well beyong 2030...around which most militaries would start inducting 5th gen fighters

After the MWF and it's naval variant hopefully, IN & IAF should pump in all funds to fuel the AMCA program
 

Nilgiri

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Not necessarily. I'm sure IN would've gone for the F-35C if offered. Despite being single engined, F-35C fares way better in several aspects

I'm talking within the class of engine we are talking about. F-18s pretty brutally put two together that Tejas uses one of. So you are naturally going to get lot more payload and range by doing that.

Making a single engine lot larger and thrusty is different to what I'm getting at. Yes F-35 would be attractive.... But thats a complete different class of engine.

Costing and MIC wise, I would have gone Tejas as good "make do + improve" building block for IN aviation. Though of course MWF would have been better approach from get go like I mentioned earlier.

At any rate, I would not have gone super hornet by the simplistic range + payload argument IN used there. That can be extended to great many things and IN would not have gotten to its indigenisation it has now more broadly following that concept to a T....I don't really understand why aviation suddenly becomes different for navy....unless there is some severe flaw in N-LCA which I don't know about.

I mean they selected the Mig-29 didn't they? (and are still going to be using them a long time now)

Compare its payload and hardpoints with N-LCA.

This should have been another non-issue and money and time spent better elsewhere where we need it much more.
 

Joe Shearer

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How about the possibility to get second hand US carrier Aircraft? There is several Nimitz class pending for decom as soon as Gerard Ford class joint the fleet
There have been a number, a large number of offers, but our geniuses the politicians still have to figure out how to deal with these offers.
 

Zapper

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GRSE delivers eighth landing craft utility ship to Indian Navy​

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Defence PSU GRSE NSE 3.83 % has delivered to the Indian Navy the last of the eight landing craft utility (LCU) ships manufactured by it, providing a major boost to the country's defence preparedness, a top company official said. The amphibious ships, to be based in the strategic location of Andaman and Nicobar Islands -- which is close to various routes leading to the South China Sea -- "are specifically designed to undertake landing operations in most difficult beaching areas", GRSE chairman and managing director Rear Admiral (retd) V K Saxena said.

Despite challenges owing to the COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent lockdown, the Kolkata-based Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) has successfully delivered the last of eight LCUs manufactured for the Indian Navy, he said.

The LCU ships, equipped with state-of-the-art technology, were developed in-house with 90 per cent of its parts indigenously manufactured.


"These ships are very unique in their design and class in the world. A very specific kind of requirement was given by the Indian Navy -- speed of 15 knots, a displacement of 900- odd tonnes and a low draught for beaching in the shallowest of waters," Saxena told .

Apart from troops, each ship can accommodate main battle tanks, personnel carriers and other Army vehicles, which can be launched on the beaches, he said on Thursday.

The ships are designed to accommodate 216 personnel and have two indigenous CRN 91 guns to provide artillery fire support during landing operations, he added.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...indian-navy/articleshow/80058635.cms?from=mdr
 

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