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India Historical Indian War History Thread
- Thread starter Jackdaws
- Start date
I'll start with some neutral accounts of the most recent war between India and Pakistan - the war in Kargil in 1999. To help people interested in history - I've not only given the name of the book, but also the page number. Others feel free to add sources or counter narratives
Source 1
MacDonald, Myra (2017). Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War. Oxford University Press. pp. 27, 53, 64, 66. ISBN 978-1-84904-858-3. p. 27: It was not so much that India won the Great South Asian War but that Pakistan lost it.
p. 53: The story of the Kargil War—Pakistan's biggest defeat by India since 1971 —is one that goes to the heart of why it lost the Great South Asian War.
p. 64: Afterwards, Musharraf and his supporters would claim that Pakistan won the war militarily and lost it diplomatically. In reality, the military and diplomatic tides turned against Pakistan in tandem.
p. 66: For all its bravado, Pakistan had failed to secure even one inch of land.
Less than a year after declaring itself a nuclear-armed power, Pakistan had been humiliated diplomatically and militarily.
Source 1
MacDonald, Myra (2017). Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War. Oxford University Press. pp. 27, 53, 64, 66. ISBN 978-1-84904-858-3. p. 27: It was not so much that India won the Great South Asian War but that Pakistan lost it.
p. 53: The story of the Kargil War—Pakistan's biggest defeat by India since 1971 —is one that goes to the heart of why it lost the Great South Asian War.
p. 64: Afterwards, Musharraf and his supporters would claim that Pakistan won the war militarily and lost it diplomatically. In reality, the military and diplomatic tides turned against Pakistan in tandem.
p. 66: For all its bravado, Pakistan had failed to secure even one inch of land.
Less than a year after declaring itself a nuclear-armed power, Pakistan had been humiliated diplomatically and militarily.
Source 2
Carranza, Mario Esteban (2013). South Asian Security and International Nuclear Order: Creating a Robust Indo-Pakistani Nuclear Arms Control Regime. Routledge. p. 82. ISBN 978-1-317-05226-5. India was not deterred from launching a successful counteroffensive on its side of the LOC by the possibility of a Pakistani first use of nuclear weapons; and won the Kargil war both at the military and diplomatic fronts. India could have won the war much faster and less bloodily by attacking the intruders' supply lines in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
Carranza, Mario Esteban (2013). South Asian Security and International Nuclear Order: Creating a Robust Indo-Pakistani Nuclear Arms Control Regime. Routledge. p. 82. ISBN 978-1-317-05226-5. India was not deterred from launching a successful counteroffensive on its side of the LOC by the possibility of a Pakistani first use of nuclear weapons; and won the Kargil war both at the military and diplomatic fronts. India could have won the war much faster and less bloodily by attacking the intruders' supply lines in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.
Source 3
Perkovich, George (2002). India's Nuclear Bomb: The Impact on Global Proliferation. University of California Press. p. 479. ISBN 978-0-520-23210-5. The Kargil war ended as had previous wars, with an Indian victory.
Perkovich, George (2002). India's Nuclear Bomb: The Impact on Global Proliferation. University of California Press. p. 479. ISBN 978-0-520-23210-5. The Kargil war ended as had previous wars, with an Indian victory.
Source 4
Murphy, Eamon (2013). The Making of Terrorism in Pakistan: Historical and Social Roots of Extremism. Routledge. p. 128. ISBN 978-0-415-56526-4. Pakistan had been humiliated. The military defeat was compounded by the diplomatic isolation of Pakistan, which was now viewed internationally as the aggressor.
...In any event, Kargil was a military and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan and for democracy and led to the military coup that deposed Sharif. Benazir Bhutto claimed, with some exaggeration, that: 'Kargil was Pakistan's biggest blunder. Most objective analysts agree that the Kargil incident was a failure, although Musharraf adamantly continued to claim that it was a success.
Murphy, Eamon (2013). The Making of Terrorism in Pakistan: Historical and Social Roots of Extremism. Routledge. p. 128. ISBN 978-0-415-56526-4. Pakistan had been humiliated. The military defeat was compounded by the diplomatic isolation of Pakistan, which was now viewed internationally as the aggressor.
...In any event, Kargil was a military and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan and for democracy and led to the military coup that deposed Sharif. Benazir Bhutto claimed, with some exaggeration, that: 'Kargil was Pakistan's biggest blunder. Most objective analysts agree that the Kargil incident was a failure, although Musharraf adamantly continued to claim that it was a success.
Source 5
Dettman, Paul R. (2001). India Changes Course: Golden Jubilee to Millennium. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 130, 131, 140, 177. ISBN 978-0-275-97308-7. p. 130: the BJP could go to the people as the party that had undergirded India's victory over Pakistan in the Kargil 'war'.
p. 131: Another of India's institutions that had benefited from India's victory in the Kargil war was its military establishment.
p. 140: He went on to take credit for the conduct of a "war" effort that had led to a diplomatic as well as a military victory.
p. 177: For India, Vajpayee had led the military and diplomatic effort that had won the Kargil "war." For the world, he had done so while keeping India's armed forces on their own side of the LOC in Kashmir and he had prevented the outbreak of a multi-front general war with Pakistan.
Dettman, Paul R. (2001). India Changes Course: Golden Jubilee to Millennium. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 130, 131, 140, 177. ISBN 978-0-275-97308-7. p. 130: the BJP could go to the people as the party that had undergirded India's victory over Pakistan in the Kargil 'war'.
p. 131: Another of India's institutions that had benefited from India's victory in the Kargil war was its military establishment.
p. 140: He went on to take credit for the conduct of a "war" effort that had led to a diplomatic as well as a military victory.
p. 177: For India, Vajpayee had led the military and diplomatic effort that had won the Kargil "war." For the world, he had done so while keeping India's armed forces on their own side of the LOC in Kashmir and he had prevented the outbreak of a multi-front general war with Pakistan.
Thanks. Putting a video of one seemingly biased scholar Ms. Fair doesn't negate the works of others.
Again, if you have a counter narrative from any scholarly source, feel free to post it.
Source 6
Reiter, Erich; Hazdra, Peter (2013). The Impact of Asian Powers on Global Developments. Springer. p. 9. ISBN 978-3-662-13172-5. Diethelm Weidemann in his analysis of the recent Kargil conflict between India and Pakistan. As one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat, Weidemann accentuates the erroneous Pakistani assumption of the inherent superiority of Pakistani soldiers over Indian ones.
Reiter, Erich; Hazdra, Peter (2013). The Impact of Asian Powers on Global Developments. Springer. p. 9. ISBN 978-3-662-13172-5. Diethelm Weidemann in his analysis of the recent Kargil conflict between India and Pakistan. As one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat, Weidemann accentuates the erroneous Pakistani assumption of the inherent superiority of Pakistani soldiers over Indian ones.
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Have you seen size of Indian Army and Indian population? The fundamental issue is Kashmir and India despite being vastly larger has failed to resolve the issue by use of arms. That is a fact.
But when has India ever sought to "resolve the issue by use of arms"? Why would India want to be seen as an aggressor when it is the status quo power?
Why do Pakistan thinks that it owns Kashmir Per se ... Just want to understand the view point for a honest & balanced opinion.
Cross posting from other thread here..
Although nobody asked for a cert here but still.... Pakistan agree that India is superior in every sense and tbh, this do not even need to be proved since current Pakistan came into existence in 1971 but than pakistani have this habit of crying each time they go begging anywhere... their whole existence relied on their hatred for india in general !!!!!!111
Now coming to original Question as why we did not wiped it off the off, that;s by choice IMO & out in built century Old belief of "live and let other live". Anyways, nobody cares for small nuisances in their neighbourhood.....they keep us entertained....
As for bold part goes, In each war, IA have came back from Lahore many times. so that Bold part hold true to every Pak army soldier in real sense. every time, we have removed their pyjamas's in front of whole world & displayed it but than shameless fellows have no self respect left per se....
Next time - Think before exposing your manhood in full public view and bragging about It. Keep it in check.. you need to learn that badly...I know that's normal for a pakistani to do but than majority live in civilised world!!!!!!!!
@Kaptaan
@Lonewolf sir.. u want to put in more here
Let's not stoop to their level.
I don;t wish to either.... tried hard but when people put in comments like"Less than male" than that deserves a response...
my silence is not my weakness and select few think that they can say anything and get away !!!!!!!!!!
It's the sign of their frustration and lack of an argument.
Imagine being a wife, mother or daughter in such an environment.
Source 7
Baxter, Craig, ed. (2004). Pakistan on the Brink: Politics, Economics, and Society. Lexington Books. p. 23. ISBN 978-0-7391-0498-9. While the Indians had suffered heavy casualties, their military and political victory at Kargil was a galvanizing factor for Indian pride and determination not to yield to Pakistani pressure.
Baxter, Craig, ed. (2004). Pakistan on the Brink: Politics, Economics, and Society. Lexington Books. p. 23. ISBN 978-0-7391-0498-9. While the Indians had suffered heavy casualties, their military and political victory at Kargil was a galvanizing factor for Indian pride and determination not to yield to Pakistani pressure.
Here are neutral sources and their take on the 1965 War between Indian & Pakistan.
Feel free to add counter narratives and sources
Source 1
McGarr, Paul. The Cold War in South Asia: Britain, the United States and the Indian Subcontinent, 1945–1965. Cambridge University Press, 2013. p. 331. ISBN 978-1-139-02207-1. "Satisfied that it had secured a strategic and psychological victory over Pakistan by frustrating its attempt to seize Kashmir by force, when the UN resolution was passed, India accepted its terms ... with Pakistan's stocks of ammunition and other essential supplies all but exhausted, and with the military balance tipping steadily in India's favour."
Feel free to add counter narratives and sources
Source 1
McGarr, Paul. The Cold War in South Asia: Britain, the United States and the Indian Subcontinent, 1945–1965. Cambridge University Press, 2013. p. 331. ISBN 978-1-139-02207-1. "Satisfied that it had secured a strategic and psychological victory over Pakistan by frustrating its attempt to seize Kashmir by force, when the UN resolution was passed, India accepted its terms ... with Pakistan's stocks of ammunition and other essential supplies all but exhausted, and with the military balance tipping steadily in India's favour."
Source 2
Small, Andrew (2015). The China-Pakistan Axis: Asia's New Geopolitics. Oxford University Press. p. 17. ISBN 978-0-19-021075-5. "... the war itself was a disaster for Pakistan, from the first failed attempts by Pakistani troops to precipitate an insurgency in Kashmir to the appearance of Indian artillery within range of Lahore International Airport."
Small, Andrew (2015). The China-Pakistan Axis: Asia's New Geopolitics. Oxford University Press. p. 17. ISBN 978-0-19-021075-5. "... the war itself was a disaster for Pakistan, from the first failed attempts by Pakistani troops to precipitate an insurgency in Kashmir to the appearance of Indian artillery within range of Lahore International Airport."
