India Historical Indian War History Thread

Jackdaws

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Source 3

Dijink, Gertjan (2002). National Identity and Geopolitical Visions: Maps of Pride and Pain. Routledge. ISBN 9781134771295. The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.
 

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One of the largest tank battles since WW-2 concluded on 10th September 1965

Indian Havaldar Abdul Hamid received India's highest gallantry award - the Param Veer Chakra posthumously for destroying 7 Pakistani tanks.

More than 100 Pakistani tanks were destroyed and more than 40 were abandoned.

The commander of Pakistani forces Maj. Gen. Nasir Ahmed Khan was killed in action

Pervez Musharraf, later Army Chief of Staff and President of Pakistan, participated in this battle as a lieutenant of artillery in the 16 (SP) Field Regiment, 1st Armoured Division Artillery.

The sheer number of Pakistani Patton tanks destroyed and abandoned by the Pakistani forces led to the area being known as "Patton Nagar" - literally meaning "Patton Town".

images (1) (29).jpeg



A History channel documentary is also available for those interested

 

Lonewolf

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One of the largest tank battles since WW-2 concluded on 10th September 1965

Indian Havaldar Abdul Hamid received India's highest gallantry award - the Param Veer Chakra posthumously for destroying 7 Pakistani tanks.

More than 100 Pakistani tanks were destroyed and more than 40 were abandoned.

The commander of Pakistani forces Maj. Gen. Nasir Ahmed Khan was killed in action

Pervez Musharraf, later Army Chief of Staff and President of Pakistan, participated in this battle as a lieutenant of artillery in the 16 (SP) Field Regiment, 1st Armoured Division Artillery.

The sheer number of Pakistani Patton tanks destroyed and abandoned by the Pakistani forces led to the area being known as "Patton Nagar" - literally meaning "Patton Town".

View attachment 30817


A History channel documentary is also available for those interested

@Kaptaan
 

Jackdaws

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Source 4

Hagerty, Devin (2005). South Asia in world politics. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-7425-2587-0. Quote: The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time the United Nations intervened on 20 September, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.
 

Jackdaws

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There is another major tank Battle which was fought in the 1965 - the Battle of Chawinda

While it was a major tank Battle, the result of the Battle of Chawinda was largely inconclusive



Sources -

Manus I. Midlarsky (2011). Origins of Political Extremism: Mass Violence in the Twentieth Century and Beyond. Cambridge University Press. p. 256. ISBN 9781139500777.: "Several major tank battles would be fought, one at Khem Karan in Punjab yielding a major Pakistani defeat, and another at Chawinda involving over 600 tanks, the outcome of which was inconclusive."


Clodfelter, Michael (2017). Warfare and Armed Conflicts: A Statistical Encyclopedia of Casualty and Other Figures, 1492–2015, 4th ed. McFarland. p. 600. ISBN 9781476625850.: "Up to 600 tanks were engaged in the battle, primarily fought around Phillora and Chawinda, September 11–12, but the results were indecisive, largely because neither side properly supported their armor with infantry units."


Hasan, Zubeida (Fourth Quarter 1965), "The India-Pakistan War — A summary account", Pakistan Horizon, 18 (4): 344–356, JSTOR 41393247: "After a few days of intense fighting, in which each side claimed to have inflicted heavy losses on the other, the war reached a stalemate on this front."
 

Jackdaws

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One more tank Battle fought in the war of 1965 was "The Battle of Phillora" fought inside Pakistan.

It resulted in a decisive Indian victory.

At the end of the tank battles
India still retained almost 200 square miles (500 square kilometres) of Pakistani territory in the Sialkot sector including the villages of Phillora, Pagowal, Maharajke, Gadgor and Bajagrahi. They were returned to Pakistan after the Tashkent Declaration.
 

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While there can be little doubt that India got badly mauled in this war - I am struggling to get resources to read up more on this war. The only book I've read is Maxwell's "India's China War" and he seems to put it mildly, a bit biased.

But if someone has other resources including more about the Forward Policy of Nehru, I'd like to read.
 

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Source 5

Wolpert, Stanley (2005). India (3rd ed. with a new preface. ed.). Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 235. ISBN 978-0-520-24696-6. Quote: India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin
 

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Wolpert, Stanley (2005). India (3rd ed. with a new preface. ed.). Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 235. ISBN 978-0-520-24696-6. Quote: India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin
We should had given them the required humiliation so that they remained in bad economic shape for years to come ,like poisoning their field etc . I know that war crimes etc but we won't had this Kashmir issue today .

A clean up was very much required at that time , now it's too late , they are destroying themselves now , we aren't required anymore
 

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Source 6 - Time Magazine

Friday, Oct. 01, 1965
Asia: Silent Guns, Wary Combatants

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In the green and gold chamber of the U.N.'s Security Council, the eyes of the diplomats flicked back and forth from the clock on the north wall to the impassioned face of Pakistan's Foreign Minister Zulfikar AH Bhutto. Before him lay the answer to everyone's question: Would it be wider war or tempo rary peace for South Asia? Bhutto waited until the last possible moment before answering.

At one minute before 3 a.m. — the deadline — he interrupted a scorching, anti-Indian diatribe, plucked from the stack of papers before him a telegram from Pakistan's President Mohammed Ayub Khan: "In the interests of inter national peace ... I have issued the following order to the Pakistani armed forces: they will stop fighting as from 1205 hours West Pakistan time today."

Claims of Victory. Soon, the guns fell silent along 1,000 miles of battle ground between India and Pakistan. At Pakistani airbases, pilots stepped wear ily from their American-built Sabres and Starfighters. On the Plain of Sialkot, tank-recovery vehicles clanked up to the hulks of shattered Indian and Pakistani armor to drag them off for salvage. In New Delhi and Rawalpindi, Indians and Pakistanis began to count their dead and gild their battles of the last three weeks with claims of victory.

Victory, in fact, belonged to no one in last week's ceasefire. Kashmir remained divided. India still claimed 690 sq. mi. of Pakistani territory (see map), but had failed by a scant three miles to capture the strategic Sialkot plateau. Pakistan held 250 sq. mi. of Indian Kashmir and Rajasthan, but had lost —temporarily at least — half its armor. And Red China had lost that most val uable of Asian commodities: face.

Peking's stern ultimatum to India, which once sounded like the voice of certain war, was resolved in a squeaky backdown. Peking announced that the Indians had dismantled 56 outposts on Chinese territory, thus precluding the possibility of a three-cornered war. But Peking kept up the threat of future trouble by demanding the immediate return of "two kidnaped Tibetans, 800 sheep and 59 yaks." India, of course, denied everything from dismantling to yaknaping. And in New Delhi, a mob promptly marched on the Chinese Embassy, leading a herd of sheep bearing placards that read: "Eat me, but save the world."

"A New Phase." The lull in the war 'may well be short-lived, as both Pakistan's Ayub and India's Prime Minister Lai Bahadur Shastri indicated in their-post-cease-fire speeches. "From now on we enter a new phase in our struggle to show the righteousness of our cause," said Ayub. He added warm praise for Red China, whose "moral support . . . will forever remain enshrined in our hearts," as well as for Indonesia and other Moslem nations. The U.S. understandably received no public praise from Ayub for its role in the ceasefire, though Ayub quickly called President Johnson by phone to advise L.B.J. of Pakistan's acceptance of the ceasefire. Nothing was said of the anti-American demonstrations in Karachi and Lahore the day before the ceasefire, in which mobs smashed U.S. libraries and embassy windows.

Punctured Euphoria. In New Delhi, a wave of euphoria swept the population, but not the top level of Indian leadership. Shastri took to the radio to puncture the jubilation. "Pakistan is still in a bellicose mood," he said. "I must state clearly that if Pakistan launches an attack again on the state of Jammu and Kashmir, we shall meet the challenge with full determination and full force. Let there be no miscalculations again." Shastri evidently had in mind infiltrations of Pakistani "freedom fighters," whose raids had triggered the crisis. Indeed, no sooner was the cease-fire in effect than each side accused the other of violations.

Clearly, Pakistan had little choice but to accept the U.N.'s cease-fire ultimatum. Cut off from U.S. and British arms supplies, denied Russian aid, and severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N. To take those steps would have meant a permanent break with the West and an end to the Western aid that has so greatly stimulated Pakistan's economy. India, by contrast, is still the big gainer in the war. Shastri had united the nation as never before. Said one Western ambassador last week: "It used to be you could feed the word 'India' into the machine and it would spit out 'Maharajahs, snakes, too many babies, too many cows, spindly-legged Hindus.' Now it's apparent to everybody that India is going to emerge as an Asian power in its own right."
 

Jackdaws

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We should had given them the required humiliation so that they remained in bad economic shape for years to come ,like poisoning their field etc . I know that war crimes etc but we won't had this Kashmir issue today .

A clean up was very much required at that time , now it's too late , they are destroying themselves now , we aren't required anymore

Of course it would be inhuman to poison their fields. The average Pakistani is not an enemy of the Indian state - their terror loving Govt. and Army with their deep rooted inferiority complex and insecurity are. How many of their coups have been because of India? Sharif was overthrown after they lost Kargil. Zia Ul Haq killed after they lost in Siachen. Ayub overthrown after they lost 1965. Yahya overthrown after they lost 71. It's a laundry list of insecurity because of India.
 

Lonewolf

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Of course it would be inhuman to poison their fields. The average Pakistani is not an enemy of the Indian state - their terror loving Govt. and Army with their deep rooted inferiority complex and insecurity are. How many of their coups have been because of India? Sharif was overthrown after they lost Kargil. Zia Ul Haq killed after they lost in Siachen. Ayub overthrown after they lost 1965. Yahya overthrown after they lost 71. It's a laundry list of insecurity because of India.
None will die due to pre knowing that the field are poisoned but they have to import lot of food then and if they do so investment on other sector decrease ,thereby pushing them back as their resources will be stressed by war , so we would be having enough power to make them sign some agreement of choice
 

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None will die due to pre knowing that the field are poisoned but they have to import lot of food then and if they do so investment on other sector decrease ,thereby pushing them back as their resources will be stressed by war , so we would be having enough power to make them sign some agreement of choice

This would blow back on India big time internationally. It is against the geneva conventions first of all.

India must be very precise as to what the enemy is inside Pakistan....and how to (help by their own hand as they are already doing) further stratify and become more insular from their larger population.
 

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This would blow back on India big time internationally. It is against the geneva conventions first of all.

India must be very precise as to what the enemy is inside Pakistan....and how to (help by their own hand as they are already doing) further stratify and become more insular from their larger population.
That's the current way of doctrine .

I was discussing the case in 1965 . Or in case they invade first
 

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In 1965 , Jat regement reached upto the border of Lahore and In my maternal village in 1971 there we 15 memeber ( single joint family) fighting from Indian side on both eastern and western front .The head of family awarded victoria cross in second world war .

I will try to get some pics next time , I visit them
 

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