Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Madokafc]

It is not all about money, but more important is capability of the human resource to do right thing with limited resource and how they perceived their threat perception against the mother country. There is several example on how countries with more limited resource compared to Indonesia or predecessor of Indonesia (Netherland Dutch Indies) but eventually emerge as a big winner and able to develop Arms and bread at the same time along with all of the infrastructure needed.

Japan post Meiji era and South Korea after Korean War is a nice example, then the rising of Vietnam lately, those countries actually had manage their high Rates economy growth but still building decent or even formidable military posture compared to the size of their economy and resource. PRC and USA is actually the same, both keep maintain rising military expenditure but actually their economy keep growing at decent Pace (especially US pre Covid19 era during early years of Trump admin, the increase in military spending is side by side with decent economy growth far outweight their peer European allies who insisted to slashing military expenditure).

Indonesia had around 2100 T spending budget, but only put around 125 to 140 T for military spending. https://setkab.go.id/address-of-the...ar-and-its-financial-note-before-the-plena-2/

And such spending is mostly spent for maintenance and operational duty of organization not much for development, research and acquisition program in which actually in dire need. When the budget pie is already small compared to the overall situation of Indonesia macro economy this is questionable how much impact of local Defense industry toward Indonesia economy. Not to mention questionable tradition on several SOE to do tempel stiker business model.

With regard to Air Force theme of this thread, just like i said before without bigger market, bigger client with bigger Air Force fighter fleets, there is almost Nil incentive for our local Defense industry to have more thorough solution toward aviation industry and market especially about fighter.

 

[Parry Brima]

At the end of the day financial capability were always the core of issues that plagued us . Between economic stability and shopping wish list . The choice always obvious . Exarcebated that with an old guard as representation of his own political party face that doesn't have a managerial capability . we have a 5 whole of years of neglect and missmanagement that couldn't be easily rectified without sacrificing his political power base during his first tenure .
Face it ..... What he could do ?? Replaced the incumbent to wrecks his own base ?? Real politic was a drag yet it was the reality we couldn't avoid or denied at our leisure . Frustating as it is . Add that with his minimalistic knowledge in the militaristic planning and procurement ?? Even erick thohir doesn't dare to tip his toe in that swamped place . Who else he can turn into ?? And we always know connie was a 5th column in disguised . Out played and out of his depth . That is the sad reality of our commander in chief are positioned these days .

Sigh .... What clustrfuck time we are living in today .

Well, all of these excuses, IF true, shows his lack of knowledge, strong leadership, and intelligence instead.

I'd like to think that he just doesn't care. It's easier to fix than those much worse personality traits.

Let's hope that he starts to care now. Better late than never.

 

[Indos]

The fact is SMI only give 1.1 billion USD approval for foreign loan for fighters acquisition until 2024. With this money I think it will be better spent on F 16 Block 72 as we have already necessary infrastructure, commonality with already acquired 32 F 16, less expensive than Rafale and F 15 EX and last one, US has already said they will give the latest version without any down grade

 

[Indos]

The approval for foreign loan for defense program is around 5.8 billion USD for 2021 fiscal year, so basically what we will likely to see is the foreign loan for defense acquisition until 2024 will still be around 20 billion USD or even can be less, similar like what has been revealed previously.

The foreign loan approval will be likely smaller in 2022 and also 2023 as government has made policy to reduce the budget deficit gradually where in 2023 it will be back to previous level which is not more than 3 percent of GDP and more tight approach on foreign loan to maintain debt to GDP ratio at least around 40 percent.

 

[Madokafc]

Syalalala still no budget for KFX

 

[Parry Brima]

The fact is SMI only give 1.1 billion USD approval for foreign loan for fighters acquisition until 2024. With this money I think it will be better spent on F 16 Block 72 as we have already necessary infrastructure, less expensive than Rafale and F 15 EX and also US has already said they will give the latest version without any down grade

The approval for foreign loan for defense program is around 5.8 billion USD for 2021 fiscal year, so basically what we will likely to see is the foreign loan for defense acquisition until 2024 will still be around 20 billion USD or even can be less, similar like what has been revealed previously.

The foreign loan approval will be likely smaller in 2022 and also 2023 as government has made policy to reduce the budget deficit gradually where in 2023 it will be back to previous level which is not more than 3 percent of GDP and more tight approach on foreign loan to maintain debt to GDP ratio at least around 40 percent.

Isn't this so called presidential "decree" draft supposed to bypass that MoF/Bappenas decisions?

 

[Indos]

Isn't this so called presidential "decree" draft supposed to bypass that MoF/Bappenas decisions?

I dont think so, presidential decree I believe is about supporting defense acquisition program through soft loans that could have long period of maturity date like 28 years so it will burden next administration.

I dont think it will make current gov to do huge order through large foreign loan since it will effect our debt to GDP ratio where it is the duty of economic team to manage those foreign loan so it will be healthy enough and correlates with our economic team strategy and policy.

Even Bappenas minister said he only know about that 20 billion USD foreign loan. This plan from Prabowo still need to get approval from economic team if the Presidential decree is indeed passed. I believe the amount of foreign loan will be the same.

Any way, we are still under Jokowi administration with its economic and local industry centrix policy.

 

[Ravager]

It is not all about money, but more important is capability of the human resource to do right thing with limited resource and how they perceived their threat perception against the mother country. There is several example on how countries with more limited resource compared to Indonesia or predecessor of Indonesia (Netherland Dutch Indies) but eventually emerge as a big winner and able to develop Arms and bread at the same time along with all of the infrastructure needed.

Japan post Meiji era and South Korea after Korean War is a nice example, then the rising of Vietnam lately, those countries actually had manage their high Rates economy growth but still building decent or even formidable military posture compared to the size of their economy and resource. PRC and USA is actually the same, both keep maintain rising military expenditure but actually their economy keep growing at decent Pace (especially US pre Covid19 era during early years of Trump admin, the increase in military spending is side by side with decent economy growth far outweight their peer European allies who insisted to slashing military expenditure).

Indonesia had around 2100 T spending budget, but only put around 125 to 140 T for military spending. https://setkab.go.id/address-of-the...ar-and-its-financial-note-before-the-plena-2/

And such spending is mostly spent for maintenance and operational duty of organization not much for development, research and acquisition program in which actually in dire need. When the budget pie is already small compared to the overall situation of Indonesia macro economy this is questionable how much impact of local Defense industry toward Indonesia economy. Not to mention questionable tradition on several SOE to do tempel stiker business model.

With regard to Air Force theme of this thread, just like i said before without bigger market, bigger client with bigger Air Force fighter fleets, there is almost Nil incentive for our local Defense industry to have more thorough solution toward aviation industry and market especially about fighter.

There is always a diference between expectation and achievement . Compound that with a pervalence systematical corruption happening around us . we are here today .. battered and bruised even with all our national riches and potential .
I am simple man .... I only talk with what i had . never with i wished to be .
Reality is we are suckered big time too much time and chances are wasted . And until something are to be done nothing ever going to change to ever suit our aspiration .

Well, all of these excuses, IF true, shows his lack of knowledge, strong leadership, and intelligence instead.

I'd like to think that he just doesn't care. It's easier to fix than those much worse personality traits.

Let's hope that he starts to care now. Better late than never.

What you called an excuses i called that as a honest observation point . And face it ... With the way wind are blowing today nothing going to change this messed up trajectory until 2024 . Everybody with some means are milking this for their own goals .
Between stupidity , neglect and conned by . the result are still the same .... We had 5 years of neglect and now ?? 5 years of over ambitions without clear planning and end goal of acquisition within sight . Just look at the latest frigate case . Since when we are starting to finance things before even the final specs/design were even approved/finalized ?? This is madness ... And.yet every body in top were silently acknowledged/approving this madness to continueing unabatedly ...

 

[Parry Brima]

I dont think it will make current gov to do huge order through large foreign loan since it will effect our debt to GDP ratio where it is the duty of economic team to manage those foreign loan so it will be healthy enough and correlates with our economic team strategy and policy.

This debt to GDP ratio argument that people use to go against military modernization has been really interesting.

According to UU No.17 2003 the debt to GDP ratio limit that's allowed for the government to take is 60%. This year we're at about 40%.

Those items on the leaked Rapim wishlist would need around $40 bil - $50 bil to actualize. It'd take our debt to GDP ratio to about 45%. This still far below the 60% limit.

The argument would be spot-on if it's used to go against the staggering $140-ish bil from the leaked presidential decree as it would take our debt to GDP ratio to about 54%. That's simply to close to the 60% limit. But again, I don't think we need that much to meet all the stuff from the leaked Rapim list.

 

[Madokafc]

If we even don't have budget to bought our stapple need in military modernization list (new fighter, Frigates and Submarine) what else with provide budget for KFX/IFX DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM in which still had years in the future to come?

Don't say we don't need more Fighter, Frigates and Submarine, with our fleets mostly at the age of more than two decades and not in number how much they can safe guarding our vast sky and ocean and our One trillion US Dollar GDP economy?

 

[trishna_amrta]

again money will constantly get drained if (i) a lot of Indonesians still dumb enough to don't give a f*ck about health protocol during this pandemic, as when those dumb people got sick the state will have to pay for their medication,

And how will they even care about health protocol when the gov't official & politician themselves are the most prolific offender

 

[Umigami]

 

[Madokafc]

And how will they even care about health protocol when the gov't official & politician themselves are the most prolific offender

remind me of some Youtuber wedding not long ago during the height of Pandemic

 

[Anmdt]

If we even don't have budget to bought our stapple need in military modernization list (new fighter, Frigates and Submarine) what else with provide budget for KFX/IFX DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM in which still had years in the future to come?

Don't say we don't need more Fighter, Frigates and Submarine, with our fleets mostly at the age of more than two decades and not in number how much they can safe guarding our vast sky and ocean and our One trillion US Dollar GDP economy?

Why don't they create a dedicated fund for upgrade programs of the Army, feed this fund by luxury item, gambling, lottery taxes?
Gambling can be allowed in certain locations as well just to redirect gains.
I don't know but it sounds cool,it may not be applied that well but Army needs a dedicated fund for upgrades so that it won't be affected by economical condition or by mindset of ministers and president.

 

[Madokafc]

Why don't they create a dedicated fund for upgrade programs of the Army, feed this fund by luxury item, gambling, lottery taxes?
Gambling can be allowed in certain locations as well just to redirect gains.
I don't know but it sounds cool,it may not be applied that well but Army needs a dedicated fund for upgrades so that it won't be affected by economical condition or by mindset of ministers and president.

In the past we are doing this kinda of move but not anymore, as after Reformation in 1999 the Law stipulated all of the Armed Forces fund must come from state budget drafted by regular channel just like other State Departments. This including to transfer of many military owned business and industry to the central Government. This move to ensure Civillian government supremacy over the Armed Forces and this actually very important to ensure the smooth transition of Indonesian reform at early years of reform.

And in my opinion this act to restrain military is more important than shining military tools or else we are risking our stability and hard earned reform and democracy.

 

[Madokafc]

Btw Malaysia just got a sudden visit of uninvited guest yesterday, the guest is a full squadron of mixed Strategic Airlifter of PLAAF comprised of Il 76 and Xian Y 20, the map indicated the fleets is not too far from Northern coast of Malaysian Borneo a range not too far from Indonesian side.

This move is indicated Borneo (at least the Northern and Eastern Shore) is well placed within the PLAAF reach to do air dropping para trooper or other war ordnances.

Hope Indonesian Air Force can increase the total fighter assets in our side of Kalimantan, the threat perception is more vivid there at least triple the number of what we already had right now or more.

 

[NEKO]

This move to ensure Civillian government supremacy over the Armed Forces

And in myanmar its the opposite.

Btw Malaysia just got a sudden visit of uninvited guest yesterday, the guest is a full squadron of mixed Strategic Airlifter of PLAAF comprised of Il 76 and Xian Y 20, the map indicated the fleets is not too far from Northern coast of Malaysian Borneo a range not too far from Indonesian side.

View attachment 22027 View attachment 22028 View attachment 22029 View attachment 22030

This move is indicated Borneo (at least the Northern and Eastern Shore) is well placed within the PLAAF reach to do air dropping para trooper or other war ordnances.

Oooooo.......

 

[R4duga]

Btw Malaysia just got a sudden visit of uninvited guest yesterday, the guest is a full squadron of mixed Strategic Airlifter of PLAAF comprised of Il 76 and Xian Y 20, the map indicated the fleets is not too far from Northern coast of Malaysian Borneo a range not too far from Indonesian side.

View attachment 22027 View attachment 22028 View attachment 22029 View attachment 22030

This move is indicated Borneo (at least the Northern and Eastern Shore) is well placed within the PLAAF reach to do air dropping para trooper or other war ordnances.

Hope Indonesian Air Force can increase the total fighter assets in our side of Kalimantan, the threat perception is more vivid there at least triple the number of what we already had right now or more.

i wonder if TNI would do another meeting with DPR and President regarding this incident , even though it's not happening on our territorial airspace , should be enough for a wake up call .

 

[Madokafc]

i wonder if TNI would do another meeting with DPR and President regarding this incident , even though it's not happening on our territorial airspace , should be enough for a wake up call .

If they had brain and nerve they would taking this incident seriously

 

[trishna_amrta]

Why don't they create a dedicated fund for upgrade programs of the Army, feed this fund by luxury item, gambling, lottery taxes?
Gambling can be allowed in certain locations as well just to redirect gains.
I don't know but it sounds cool,it may not be applied that well but Army needs a dedicated fund for upgrades so that it won't be affected by economical condition or by mindset of ministers and president.

Used to do that back in the 70's - early 90's. There are even casino both in Jakarta & Surabaya and variety of gambling establishment in smaller cities.

And in myanmar its the opposite.

Oooooo.......

You haven't born during Soeharto Orde Baru aren't you

i wonder if TNI would do another meeting with DPR and President regarding this incident , even though it's not happening on our territorial airspace , should be enough for a wake up call .

If they had brain and nerve they would taking this incident seriously

Depend on the meeting budget (uang kehadiran, dsb)