Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Indos]

@Indos I haven't got some solid info on radar ,EOTS , DAS of kfx /ifx , any spec sheet ,like what kind of antenna they use (tsa, planer etc ) , or what bandwidth they have etc .

Would be helpful to analyse the plane in comparison to others .

Despite I do have connection to the engineering team, but I dont want to ask this questions to them. I only do it when it is necessary to do so. Better we wait for the official information published on KAI website or if the official give information to media. I dont work as PR of Indonesian Aerospace or KAI, I am just Indonesian guy who cares about the program and will help the program as far as I can.

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...

www.koreaaero.com

Some information maybe have been posted by me or by some Korean members in PDF on KFX/IFX thread.

This is regarding the AESA radar

 

[Indos]

The wingman drone video is official and published in Korean news. Korean Member in PDF has said about the capability of KF 21 to use wingman drone, and that wingman drone has been tested by KAI.

 

[Indos]

From @dr.knowhow in his PDF post (KFX/IFX thread page 15), when I have conversation with him

_______________________________________

It is not uncommon for patriotic figures to come back to their homeland to help their own people out through difficult times. It was the case in almost every far east industrial nations during the 20th century and I guess it is the same story for Indonesia as well. I wouldn't place any blame to those who chose to immigrate to foreign countries seeking better life or other kind of ambition because I could understand them too well, though from the same stand point we could praise those who refuse the luxury but come back to promote the common good of their own people. Indonesia is lucky to have those engineers who love and have passion in their own country.

Talking about the Indonesian road map for their future aerospace industry, I personally think having a fighter jet program is a huge incentive. There are clearly some convergence between large subsonic aircraft and agile supersonic aircraft but they are in core a completely different machines and Indonesia has a lot to gain alone from taking part in designing an airframe that can pull out such maneuvers, sustain and endure the sheer amount of stress. That was in fact exactly the case when the Koreans developed the T-50. It is always described as such a quantum leap and a huge boost of confidence going into any kind of aerospace projects then after, let alone is the basis of basically every single aerospace projects that has followed it and are progressing atm. Even the KUH program which is a helicopter development program has a lot of its technology to be traced back to KT-X program.

Of course it would be hard to expect the similar magnitude of ripple effect on the Indonesian side of things considering the lack of Indonesian avionics but I do think that the IF-X fighters could pave the way for any future domestic Indonesian avionics to be vastly fast tracked and provide a range of opportunities other countries would not have not having their own fighter jet. The US has never allowed any foreign avionics to be integrated into their aircraft unless its either Israel or special cases like Japan's FS-X that led to F-2 which is an indigenous Japanese fighter on its own right considering the amount of Japanese input into the project leaving the fuselage aside. Same could be said about the European aircrafts as well. You either pay a hefty amount of money to get their old design and develop your own aircraft based on their aircraft with clear limitations or DIY from the ground up. As long as Indonesia stick to the project and the agreements, they would be able to retain their leverage.

If that is true, considering to Indonesia projected economic power at that time, I believe it would possibly be 50:50 scheme. Indonesia will also be very interested on the program if Korea can successfully produce their own engine for that potential future project. It is because many of Indonesian are very worry about the western input since we have a history of US and British weapon embargo. So I would like to ask you this question, do you think in the period of 2035 Korean can produce competitive indigenous drone engine and 2040 for competitive jet engine for fighter jet ?

Actually, the flying wing UAV and UCAV development has been going on since quite a few years now and they have already flown the prototype of the aircraft.

(photo courtesy of m.blog.naver.com/rgm84d, official blog of Military Review, a Korean defense magazine)

Above is the picture made public by the ADD I think this year. Being benchmarked are obviously other stealthy flying wing UAVs and UCAVs from the US and Europe such as X-45 or Taranis and Neuron. The project itself was highly confidential so nothing much was being revealed but as the KF-X program progressed along with other R&D programs related to the stealth UCAV, I guess the ADD and the ROKA decided that it is okay to give out some infos to the public.

Talking about the indigenous turbofan engines, there is also a project going on since the mid 2010s, which is aimed for a development of 5,500 pounds thrust low-bypass turbofan and 8,000~10,000 pounds thrust high-bypass turbofan engine scheduled for completion by 2025. So you wouldn't need to wait for an extra decade to get a Korean turbofan engine good enough for a UCAV. Things are progressing in quite a speed in Korea. The basis of the turbofan technology itself originates from the development of turbojet engine that powers C-Star ASM and project that followed which led to another jet engine that is powering the Hyunmoo-III cruise missile. In the beginning the Korean got their help from France and Ukraine during the 80s and 90s then also producing various kinds of gas turbine engines domestically for the ROKAF and ROKN paved the way for accumulation of know-how in developing and manufacturing a gas turbine.

Although separate from Hanhwa Aerospace who are the sole contractor of gas turbine engines being use and are being developed for the ROKA, there are other companies like Doosan who've recently developed a gas turbine for powerplants, which there are only a handful of countries that develop and manufacture around the world. This along with the various kind of industrial and academic clusters in Korea such as the the research cluster in Daejeon or institutes that govern these technologies in likes of Korea Institute of Material Science which connects the engineers within the country are clearly resulting in a synergy in gas turbine development.

I still wouldn't be so sure about if Korea would be able to develop a fighter jet class engine in the 2040 because that is a full 2 decades away from now, which for me is almost impossible to guess what would then be the standard for a state of the art fighter jet engine. We are already seeing trends like variable bypass ratio, significantly more capacity of generating electricity for all the new sensory suite and directed energy weapons, higher performance throughout the whole flight envelope and of course better fuel economy and thrust but who knows what would happen. Maybe duel mode turbofan-ramjets would be the new standard . Those things aside, continuing the development of the turbofan engines, I think Korea could be able to emerge as a new supplier of niche market turbofan engines for a more competitive price when any emerging nations are willing to develop a new UAV or such. It would for example provide Indonesia another option on top of European and American products if they are willing to develop their own UAV and are searching for an engine. There are of course less concerns over embargo as well.

 

[Lonewolf]

Obviously you aren't the pr guy ,but these things aren't too much secretive , well the infographic you posted is quite interesting , they just didn't published the main info that whether it is GAN or GaAs and what's the antenna shape , and what's the output power ,all factor required to compare range and electronic attack survivability

Despite I do have connection to the engineering team, but I dont want to ask this questions to them. I only do it when it is necessary to do so. Better we wait for the official information published on KAI website or if the official give information to media. I dont work as PR of Indonesian Aerospace or KAI, I am just Indonesian guy who cares about the program and will help the program as far as I can.

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...

www.koreaaero.com

Some information maybe have been posted by me or by some Korean members in PDF on KFX/IFX thread.

This is regarding the AESA radar

View attachment 32632

 

[Umigami]

The wingman drone video is official and published in Korean news. Korean Member in PDF has said about the capability of KF 21 to use wingman drone, and that wingman drone has been tested by KAI.

Stealthy body design looked best in clean config afterall.

Puting drop tank and missile externally looked so wrong.

 

[Gary]

Shouldn't they have 2 seaters for the pilot in the back to do mission planning for the UCAV ?

 

[Lordimperator]

Shouldn't they have 2 seaters for the pilot in the back to do mission planning for the UCAV ?

Maybe they ll have the same concept with the Australian F35 with their Boeing Wingman

 

[Gary]

Maybe they ll have the same concept with the Australian F35 with their Boeing Wingman

Damn yeah u r right.

 

[Gary]

Stealthy body design looked best in clean config afterall.

Puting drop tank and missile externally looked so wrong.

It's going to be a vlo platform only in block 2.

The block 1 will be somewhat similar in RCS to a Typhoon

 

[Umigami]

It's going to be a vlo platform only in block 2.

The block 1 will be somewhat similar in RCS to a Typhoon

No. block 2 is just ground attack capability and maybe some update on flight control software.

 

[Indos]

It's going to be a vlo platform only in block 2.

The block 1 will be somewhat similar in RCS to a Typhoon

KF 21 not only using Stealth design for RCS, it also can lower heat signature from engine. If KF21 only put 4 missile in the belly (semi recessed), its RCS is much lower than Typhoon.

Block 2 will come up in 2028, just 2 years after Block 1

Block 3 is 5 generation, but I believe block 1 and 2 can be upgradable to block 3 since the belly ( where IWB is inside it) is in modular

“We will come up with air-to-air missiles by 2026 and air-to-surface missiles by 2028,” the Defense Acquisition Program Administration said.

Weapons on Korean fighter jet ready by 2028

South Korea’s first homegrown fighter jet, the KF-21 Boramae, will be ready to fly with weapons aboard by 2028, the arms procurement agency said Sunday. “We will come up with air-to-air missiles by 2026 and air-to-surface missiles by 2028,” the Defense Acquisition Program Administration said...

news.koreaherald.com

 

[Lordimperator]

No. block 2 is just ground attack capability and maybe some update on flight control software.

So the block 2 could be integrated with LCM such as Taurus?

Block 2 will come up in 2028, just 2 years after Block 1

Do we have a plan to develop our IFX like KFX block ii? Or our coop with Sokor ends in block i kfx

 

[Indos]

So the block 2 could be integrated with LCM such as Taurus?

Do we have a plan to develop our IFX like KFX block ii? Or our coop with Sokor ends in block i kfx

Well I believe we are going to even develop it until it has 6 generation capability if government is backing the program fully inshaAllah.

I dont think we will end up with KF 21 Block 1 since it is not a requirement needed by Indonesian Airforce. I believe we will buy KF 21 with fit with our minimal requirement and it has to have Multi Role capability.

Indonesian Aerospace can start Stealth wing man drone program after 2026 and focus on it while keep developing KF 21 together with SK. Just like CN 235 program, we keep doing the development together with CASA (Airbus Defense) until latest series.

I dont know whether we can develop KF21 alone (usually it needs 50:50 percent partnership to do so), but what needs to be understood is that the previous deal can be amended if let say Indonesia provide more fund or buy more fighter, so we are not going to stuck with the deal forever. It is what is said by the Indonesian KF 21 team.

 

[Stuka Dive]

We've been harping on the F-16V a while havent we heh.

It makes the most sense in so many different ways....good acquisition project should have started a cpl years ago already.

I never got this whole Rafale and F-15-EX thing at all.

Get the F-16V, progress to a 5th gen after that.

Simple, efficient....and w.r.t time and cost savings... direct that to the navy to build economy of scale there.

Indonesia needs a far larger navy by 2030.

It's similar to what I said on the old posting, if we want to get more than a technology offset, I mean a true technological transfer, we should aim higher rather than just to follow another country's program : get the abandoned India's F-21 program belongs to us.

If either Rafale or F-15 EX contract has to aborted and Lockheed-Martin still crazily persuade us to buy F-16V , We can bargain to them a license program (surely with significant amount of F-16V to be purchased). A several squadrons of Viper combined with either Rafale or F-15 EX still give us claws & fangs

Ask LM to get the same scheme as to what was India has in its F-21 program with LM.

1. We need to build cyber security infrastructures for any military technologies transfer security as US basic requirements to any technology transfer schemes .

AS Siap Berikan Teknologi Jet Tempur ke Indonesia untuk Digunakan dalam Pembuatan KF-21 Boramae - Pikiran Rakyat Jakarta

Indonesia dan Korea Selatan saat ini sedang disibukkan membuat jet tempur KF-21 Boramae. KF-21 Boramae sendiri ialah lanjutan dari KFX IFX

zonajakarta.pikiran-rakyat.com

2. Get a contract from LM to built Vipers "Make in Indonesia"

3. Incorporate this Indonesian's Viper program with IFX KF-21 program to build grand road map for 4.5/5/6 generation fighter jet's engineering design and manufacturing. Be it indigenously or future co-development with other countries (SK, Turkey, Japan, etc).

To tailing up the KF-21 program without previous experiences in fighter jet development is just a baby's spoon feeding process by the SK all the way. Especially our engineers already left lagging behind the program ( due to pandemic or payment problem).

This Indonesian vipers should give us necessary knowledges and experiences in the making of fighter jet. On the other hands, avoiding LM in sending any upgraded junk yard version of F-16 parked on the desert become "abracadabra" vipers to us.

It should also kind of leverage to LM's F-16 and KF-21 market, since most of KF-21 technologies came from LM. Perhaps, would also beneficial to South Korea and Indonesia in KF-21 program as LM may think to share its key technologies which was previously forbidden to us (SK & RI).

Co-development is not just about shared budget between countries, it needs equality in know-how technologies. Otherwise, it will definitely, and literally, a spoon feeding process from one side to another.

 

[Chestnut]

Don't be so naive He's not easily caught. He's the sacrifice. The pawn. To protect other biggest crooks. In fact this is the bad precedent against FMS. It happened before, it could potentially happen again in the future.

I'm not, don't assume malice/wrongdoing when stupidity is still on the table.

 

[Stuka Dive]

Can't you see there's a lot of LM's genetic inside of KF-21?

If we ask to LM a similar program such as F-21, we're not just finding solution to LM's die-hard sales offers to us for F16V , but also can bridging it to open up some sensitive technologies in KF-21 (which currently prohibited for us).

For large amount of sales opportunity, we must aiming high for offset . Thus, LM should lure us with kind of special offset. The keyword is "Massive Buying" from our side, then the magic will come. Let say 70 F-21 in minimum.

By this,
For our side:
1. We can ask for ToT (design capability, production license) of F-16V aka F-21, making this a stepping stone to into 4+, 4.5, and even 5 generation fighter jet technology.
2. We can bargain to have access into some key technologies inside KF-21.
3. We will fully develop our IFX in Indonesia's soil with LM's assistance and not just depends on our Korean's counterpart.
4. We could also get the chance to have LM's genetic Trainer Jet for F-21 and KF-21 : T -50 by production license.
5. So many commonality / interchangeability in spare parts and technologies between Indonesia's existing F-16 fleet, F-21, KF-21, T-50. A logistic nightmare and MRO program within the country could be solved.

For LM side :
1. F-16V huge sales ambition to Indonesia is solved.
2. A large LM's ecosystem of fighter jet in Indonesia as well as in the region will be created. Give LM's very strong presence in South East Asia.
3. LM and US will gain strong hold to compete with European's fighter jet in the future.

For Korean side :
1. Secure a significant acquisition of KF-21 IFX by Indonesia.
2. Long term co-development of KF-21 in the future ( as the LM may granted access to key technologies).
3. Will have much more solid partnership in selling KF-21 together to the world. By far, it's only us as their partner and buyer in this KF-21 program. The one and only.
4. T-50 sale's opportunity by production license.

It is very seldom we get something that we have ( Old F-16 and the infrastructure facilities) and something that we knew ( F-16 technological expertise in MRO) all together in brand-new fighter jet acquisition program. The F-21 program is the one.

This the game that we can win, this what we call a "Win-Win Solution" ( and everybody happy )

F-21

Meet the F-21, specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, with unmatched 'Make in India' opportunities for advanced airpower.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Whooaaaah....did I fell asleep? feels like I have a nice dream just now
(waking up, back to reality)

IMHO, This is really the game that we can win

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444168425991901187

 

[Chestnut]

Ask LM to get the same scheme as to what was India has in its F-21 program with LM.

If you want to do that you would need to order more than 2 squadrons in one buy.

 

[KanalKiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444168425991901187

First time for me to see and hear apache's sound engine flying above my house, unfortunately late to take some pict

 

[Parry Brima]

It's similar to what I said on the old posting, if we want to get more than a technology offset, I mean a true technological transfer, we should aim higher rather than just to follow another country's program : get the abandoned India's F-21 program belongs to us.

If either Rafale or F-15 EX contract has to aborted and Lockheed-Martin still crazily persuade us to buy F-16V , We can bargain to them a license program (surely with significant amount of F-16V to be purchased). A several squadrons of Viper combined with either Rafale or F-15 EX still give us claws & fangs

Ask LM to get the same scheme as to what was India has in its F-21 program with LM.

1. We need to build cyber security infrastructures for any military technologies transfer security as US basic requirements to any technology transfer schemes .

AS Siap Berikan Teknologi Jet Tempur ke Indonesia untuk Digunakan dalam Pembuatan KF-21 Boramae - Pikiran Rakyat Jakarta

Indonesia dan Korea Selatan saat ini sedang disibukkan membuat jet tempur KF-21 Boramae. KF-21 Boramae sendiri ialah lanjutan dari KFX IFX

zonajakarta.pikiran-rakyat.com

2. Get a contract from LM to built Vipers "Make in Indonesia"

3. Incorporate this Indonesian's Viper program with IFX KF-21 program to build grand road map for 4.5/5/6 generation fighter jet's engineering design and manufacturing. Be it indigenously or future co-development with other countries (SK, Turkey, Japan, etc).

To tailing up the KF-21 program without previous experiences in fighter jet development is just a baby's spoon feeding process by the SK all the way. Especially our engineers already left lagging behind the program ( due to pandemic or payment problem).

This Indonesian vipers should give us necessary knowledges and experiences in the making of fighter jet. On the other hands, avoiding LM in sending any upgraded junk yard version of F-16 parked on the desert become "abracadabra" vipers to us.

It should also kind of leverage to LM's F-16 and KF-21 market, since most of KF-21 technologies came from LM. Perhaps, would also beneficial to South Korea and Indonesia in KF-21 program as LM may think to share its key technologies which was previously forbidden to us (SK & RI).

Co-development is not just about shared budget between countries, it needs equality in know-how technologies. Otherwise, it will definitely, and literally, a spoon feeding process from one side to another.

Why would Lockheed Martin do this? They'll lose huge amount of money by giving us their technology and letting us producing our own F-16.

If we're serious about ToT stuff, for a country like us, I'm afraid the US is the last country you'd want to go to.