Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[FoodSoldier]

Turkey starting to use Aksungur like drones for this purpose, called iha soj. You might also try that one, it even lets deep strike capabilities for other jets by jamming enemy radars

you are totally right about it, paying for development and not getting anything back?

Indeed, we dont want Changbogo season 2. Ironically, this time we need it to be floating

 

[Umigami]

Indonesia has been unhappy because we’re being blocked to get accessed to the core technology on KF-21 that happened to be owned by US. Unless the Korean can ensure IF-21 core tech to be accessible (and modifiable) by Indonesian, the drama will continue.

And now they're starting to pay again. So at least in governmental level this problem already "solved".

 

[FoodSoldier]

And now they're starting to pay again. So at least in governmental level this problem already "solved".

Not quite. U can’t make US willing to share their sensitive technology for a mere $2 billion

 

[Umigami]

Turkey starting to use Aksungur like drones for this purpose, called iha soj. You might also try that one, it even lets deep strike capabilities for other jets by jamming enemy radars

you are totally right about it, paying for development and not getting anything back?

Actually we still get something. It's just less spectacular.

All ToT stopped at the manufacturing engineering process, this is what the Koreans meant when they said that they have the experience with manufacturing up to 300 F-5 jets. Its basically the process where you assemble all components into a working machine. That is the ME (Manufacturing engineering) part

Design Engineer vs. Manufacturing Engineer: What Are the Differences?

Learn about the two careers and review some of the similarities and differences between them.

climbtheladder.com

I hope I'm wrong but from the wording he chooses to describe Indonesian engineers in KFX is what I would assume part of the DE (design engineering). This is where the actual "development" of the aircraft actually is, this is where those "core technologies' are studied, and developed. And this is where I believe we are not involved.

 

[Umigami]

Not quiet. U can’t make US willing to share their sensitive technology for a mere $2 billion

What I mean with "solved" is Indonesia has to do and receive what have been agreed on.

That's why our Minister for Political, Legal and Security Affairs wasn't excited when talking about this project.

Panglima TNI dan KSAU Temui Mahfud Md, Bahas Jet Tempur KFX/IFX

Fadjar belum membeberkan hasil rapat tersebut. Dia menyerahkan sepenuhnya keputusan kepada Mahfud Md.

news.detik.com

(No English news for this one, sorry)

 

[urban mine]

Not quiet. U can’t make US willing to share their sensitive technology for a mere $2 billion

Isn't it natural to restrict technology transfer? With just a 20% stake in development? I want to know which country allows it to do so... Even the share was not paid within the deadline, so the original Indonesian production such as wings and tails was changed to a company in Korea. (I think the Indonesian production could be different after the share payment is completed.)

And the core technology was developed by Korea and we also have IP. It is not a U.S. export restriction, but a restriction by Korean law.

What Indonesia gets from this project is that Indonesian developers participate in actual development and see how the process works. The know-how can be obtained only by directly participating in the development process. (This can be useful in any future development.) Not only the composite wing and tail technology written above.

 

[urban mine]

you are totally right about it, paying for development and not getting anything back?

20% of Indonesia's participation cannot have contributions or stakes in core technologies. I hope you don't misunderstand that Indonesia has paid for the core technology and has rights to it.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

20% of Indonesia's participation cannot have contributions or stakes in core technologies. I hope you don't misunderstand that Indonesia has paid for the core technology and has rights to it.

Okay, I didn't know this.

 

[Nilgiri]

Oh no feel sorry for our esteemed Korean boo where is Indos right now?

Probably busy finding a way to blame India for paying the Korean to say this....to go along with the larger "India is taking over the IMF!!" conspiracy theory he doubled down on and other weird stuff that gathers muster in the low IQ forum there whenever I take a peek.

Manner of his departure from this forum was quite unnecessary but quite telling as to the dude's ego....I doubt he ever going to come back....just like his friend Bilal and others in that "trust me bro" + "axe to grind" posse in general that are low in actual knowledge but high in self-aggrandizement about core matters related to the topic.

They tend to get annoyingly vindictive when proven wrong on something.

to make it worse, he once wants the entire air force modernization to be put on halt because we have KFX/IFX

Yup indicative of the problem at hand with that guy and how ultimately things came to a head as they did here when one carries on with the nutty exceptionalism approach over basic structured realism....and then reductively mixes in unrelated political or below the belt blab to go with it....and leaves discussion here in a huff over it when called out on it.

Anyway have to see how this project unfolds with Korea and what Indonesia gets out of it in the end.

What is clear is that Indonesian Air Force growth should continue modernisation and not be put on halt over KFX "all in".

 

[chibiyabi]

Isn't it natural to restrict technology transfer? With just a 20% stake in development? I want to know which country allows it to do so... Even the share was not paid within the deadline, so the original Indonesian production such as wings and tails was changed to a company in Korea. (I think the Indonesian production could be different after the share payment is completed.)

And the core technology was developed by Korea and we also have IP. It is not a U.S. export restriction, but a restriction by Korean law.

What Indonesia gets from this project is that Indonesian developers participate in actual development and see how the process works. The know-how can be obtained only by directly participating in the development process. (This can be useful in any future development.) Not only the composite wing and tail technology written above.

for 2 US Bio, its very bad invesment.

 

[Umigami]

Isn't it natural to restrict technology transfer? With just a 20% stake in development? I want to know which country allows it to do so... Even the share was not paid within the deadline, so the original Indonesian production such as wings and tails was changed to a company in Korea. (I think the Indonesian production could be different after the share payment is completed.)

And the core technology was developed by Korea and we also have IP. It is not a U.S. export restriction, but a restriction by Korean law.

What Indonesia gets from this project is that Indonesian developers participate in actual development and see how the process works. The know-how can be obtained only by directly participating in the development process. (This can be useful in any future development.) Not only the composite wing and tail technology written above.

With the knowledge Indonesia get from this share, could Indonesia industry gain capability to (in some degree) sustain this fighter operational like producing some spare part on their own, etc?

and also, Will Korea allow us to integrate our own weapon of choice?
example, Integrate Mica instead of using IRIS-T so we don't have to buy another missile type and simplify our logistic. integrating SOM cruise missile instead of Taurus. etc.

 

[Madokafc]

Probably busy finding a way to blame India for paying the Korean to say this....to go along with the larger "India is taking over the IMF!!" conspiracy theory he doubled down on and other weird stuff that gathers muster in the low IQ forum there whenever I take a peek.

Manner of his departure from this forum was quite unnecessary but quite telling as to the dude's ego....I doubt he ever going to come back....just like his friend Bilal and others in that "trust me bro" + "axe to grind" posse in general that are low in actual knowledge but high in self-aggrandizement about core matters related to the topic.

They tend to get annoyingly vindictive when proven wrong on something.



Yup indicative of the problem at hand with that guy and how ultimately things came to a head as they did here when one carries on with the nutty exceptionalism approach over basic structured realism....and then reductively mixes in unrelated political or below the belt blab to go with it....and leaves discussion here in a huff over it when called out on it.

Anyway have to see how this project unfolds with Korea and what Indonesia gets out of it in the end.

What is clear is that Indonesian Air Force growth should continue modernisation and not be put on halt over KFX "all in".

Luckily for Indonesian side, the current MoD is quite decisive and has high taste for his goals

Rafale, F15EX, A400M, Thales GCI radar, is part of his long list to buy. There is also great effort to promote local Made product

 

[urban mine]

With the knowledge Indonesia get from this share, could Indonesia industry gain capability to (in some degree) sustain this fighter operational like producing some spare part on their own, etc?

and also, Will Korea allow us to integrate our own weapon of choice?
example, Integrate Mica instead of using IRIS-T so we don't have to buy another missile type and simplify our logistic. integrating SOM cruise missile instead of Taurus. etc.

Well, that will depend on future discussions. In the beginning, it will be repaired with parts produced in Korea, but it may be different afterwards. You will have to ask the missile-related country about armed integration. Only then will it be decided whether to integrate or not. I think that all armed integration is determined by the will and cost of the countries concerned.

 

[urban mine]

Anyway have to see how this project unfolds with Korea and what Indonesia gets out of it in the end.

What is clear is that Indonesian Air Force growth should continue modernisation and not be put on halt over KFX "all in".

Which Indonesia says it is all-in to KFX? Will the modernization of the Indonesian Air Force be stopped for that amount of money?

Whether it's Rafale or F-15, I know it's because it's necessary for Indonesia's situation. However, I don't think that can be the reason for overdue payment of KFX/IFX development contributions.

 

[Nilgiri]

Which Indonesia says it is all-in to KFX? Will the modernization of the Indonesian Air Force be stopped for that amount of money?

Whether it's Rafale or F-15, I know it's because it's necessary for Indonesia's situation. However, I don't think that can be the reason for overdue payment of KFX/IFX development contributions.

Its some guy with wild theories that is no longer posting here....no need to discuss much further.

Indonesia will make its decisions as it sees fit regarding what it needs sooner vs later, lets see how it all shapes up, both are important in the end.

Like madokafc says, the decisions are coming fast now so next cpl years will have more information as to Indonesia direction on various programs.

I don't know much about the payment issues w.r.t KFX/IFX program so I will watch the discussion here on that in say 2023 when I think things will be clarified more.

 

[joedhie2k]

Which Indonesia says it is all-in to KFX? Will the modernization of the Indonesian Air Force be stopped for that amount of money?

Whether it's Rafale or F-15, I know it's because it's necessary for Indonesia's situation. However, I don't think that can be the reason for overdue payment of KFX/IFX development contributions.

reason is no money allocation.. its not allocated because govt official dont really2 support it
said it long ago in other thread

the economy stand point for buying weapons from abroad is how we secure the loan.. no loan no deal.. russian deal loan are brokered by private sector which makes the deal "malleable".. to both side interest.. not so much with US or European deal, but they have more favorable interest rate and can chip in ToT agreement

and to connect it to KFX/IFX then no direct loan available.. this makes 100 billion USD weapons deal from FMS somewhat a lot cheaper then 20 million USD (or whatever cost this year) KFX dev cost

 

[urban mine]

reason is no money allocation.. its not allocated because govt official dont really2 support it
said it long ago in other thread

As for weapons purchases, it is generally right to proceed that way and cheaper. There will be a loan when you purchase IFX later. Don't you always deal in that way? However, the transaction underway between Korea and Indonesia is risk sharing for development. It means sharing the risk while paying for the development. This is because I know that joint development is like that. Koreans don't understand what kind of loans there are.

Well, that discussion is unnecessary now. This is because the development is looking to be completed anyway, and Indonesia has also started paying again. You'll have to complete all the payments within that period to keep your credit.

 

[Anmdt]

With the knowledge Indonesia get from this share, could Indonesia industry gain capability to (in some degree) sustain this fighter operational like producing some spare part on their own, etc?

and also, Will Korea allow us to integrate our own weapon of choice?
example, Integrate Mica instead of using IRIS-T so we don't have to buy another missile type and simplify our logistic. integrating SOM cruise missile instead of Taurus. etc.

I won't underestimate MRO capability as well. It is clear that Indonesia will have rights and capability to conduct MROs, maybe not for the engine. This alone will help a sustainable aviation industry with parts production to support international orders or even use own assembly line for the international order.

Also, my point of view in ToT; it is not given but taken. It is duty of the receiver to extract most of the ToT from a given a chance. To my experience one learns most about a platform during the MRO, so it matters.

And Korea would give none but assembled and ready to fly airplanes if payments continues but without a commitment at the project. It is clear they also need a partner to support their production and MRO at the long term.

And i am sure they will be open for weapon integration as long as the weapon supplier is open (also as long as it is funded or maybe conducted by Indonesia for tests etc), such a detail should have been in the contract for this kind of a collaboration or it doesn't make sense at all. I would understand not sharing core tech and capabilities for the design and production but not allowing weapon integration is not acceptable.

 

[Windchime]

I now understand why Turkey didn't participate in the KFX project. Also, someone forward this vid to Indos, please.

I was always wondering, are these the main reasons? However, the two countries could have done much better.

Those two reasons (project share and their demands for Korea to offset with T-129's selection in the AH-X program) were critical, but there were also disagreements regarding production share as well. It was very clear from the beginning that Korea was looking for a junior partner. There's no right or wrong in differing objectives and demands the two countries had against each other, because they ultimately didn't joined their respective programs due to those differences.

There would have been a problem had the two parties found an agreement and one of the sides suddenly changed their demands after the agreement... which is not the case between Korea and Türkiye but sounds like an oddly familiar news when talking about KF-X.

I don't think that's true. I mean, I could've organized 40 engineers to take part in this 'partnership'...lmao.

Jokes aside, I wish we had our Indonesian friends aboard. They're goal-oriented and trustworthy. On top of that, Indonesia is going to be a gigantic market in the future.

In addition, I don't think that a country like Indonesia lacks the funds to pay its share in the KFX l/IFX project especially now with all the extra money pouring in from the export of natural resources.

If Jakarta doesn't pay upfront, it means something.

Probably because they're unhappy with certain Korean decisions and in general the way they are treated by the Korean side. Perhaps some Indonesian friends here can shed a light on the Indonesian worries...

There's something with their current administration for sure, especially when the payment issues started with their new admin.

Indonesia has been unhappy because we’re being blocked to get accessed to the core technology on KF-21 that happened to be owned by US. Unless the Korean can ensure IF-21 core tech to be accessible (and modifiable) by Indonesian, the drama will continue.

We should first define what these "core technologies" are, then talk. What are they exactly? Are they technologies regarding key sensors, avionics structure and software? Vehicle design and materials? Some of them are partly connected to offset ToT from the US that Korea received through KFP and F-X programs while others are home-bred.

It is not as simple as "US block ToT and there are no ToT". Most importantly, scope of transfferable technologies were pre-defined when the agreement was signed. Evdiences point towards an agreement where it is stated that no transffer of critical avionics technology are to take place, since the Korean side was very clear and consistent about that from the very beginning.

Turkey starting to use Aksungur like drones for this purpose, called iha soj. You might also try that one, it even lets deep strike capabilities for other jets by jamming enemy radars

you are totally right about it, paying for development and not getting anything back?

With which evidence are you saying that they are not getting anything back? Do you even know what they are supposed to get back in the first place?

Moreover some forum members here are extremely ignorant and disrespectful towards other countries without knowing much, if not anything. You folks get pissed off about all the wrong information regarding Turkish programs likel MMU and prejudicial assessment towards it from other countries but are holding a same attitude against KF-X for some reason.

 

[Windchime]

Probably busy finding a way to blame India for paying the Korean to say this....to go along with the larger "India is taking over the IMF!!" conspiracy theory he doubled down on and other weird stuff that gathers muster in the low IQ forum there whenever I take a peek.

Manner of his departure from this forum was quite unnecessary but quite telling as to the dude's ego....I doubt he ever going to come back....just like his friend Bilal and others in that "trust me bro" + "axe to grind" posse in general that are low in actual knowledge but high in self-aggrandizement about core matters related to the topic.

They tend to get annoyingly vindictive when proven wrong on something.



Yup indicative of the problem at hand with that guy and how ultimately things came to a head as they did here when one carries on with the nutty exceptionalism approach over basic structured realism....and then reductively mixes in unrelated political or below the belt blab to go with it....and leaves discussion here in a huff over it when called out on it.

Anyway have to see how this project unfolds with Korea and what Indonesia gets out of it in the end.

What is clear is that Indonesian Air Force growth should continue modernisation and not be put on halt over KFX "all in".

I'm not around here all the time so I wasn't able to witness what happened, but sounds like one hell of a departure for sure.

With the knowledge Indonesia get from this share, could Indonesia industry gain capability to (in some degree) sustain this fighter operational like producing some spare part on their own, etc?

and also, Will Korea allow us to integrate our own weapon of choice?
example, Integrate Mica instead of using IRIS-T so we don't have to buy another missile type and simplify our logistic. integrating SOM cruise missile instead of Taurus. etc.

The Indonesian side gets exactly two things in terms of the effects in their industry. One is industry sustainment, as @Anmdt has pointed out. The other is key expertise in expanding their aerospace portofolio, both in terms of development and manufacturing capabilities, especially the latter. They were to gain the know-how and more importantly the know-why.

As with weapons integration, that depends on the Korean side willing to adhere to Indonesian request and the willingness of the foreign OEM to provide necessary data. I don't think there would be a problem concerning the former since unlike the US Korea still doesn't have key munitions in their portfolio to offer. Also as I've said before, the 5th prototype was to be provided to Indonesia so that they could test and evaluate their own configuration (IF-X). I think that says enough about it.

Its some guy with wild theories that is no longer posting here....no need to discuss much further.

Indonesia will make its decisions as it sees fit regarding what it needs sooner vs later, lets see how it all shapes up, both are important in the end.

Like madokafc says, the decisions are coming fast now so next cpl years will have more information as to Indonesia direction on various programs.

I don't know much about the payment issues w.r.t KFX/IFX program so I will watch the discussion here on that in say 2023 when I think things will be clarified more.

The payment issue on the surface is pretty clear-cut. Indonesia has been delaying their payments since pre-pandemic, and as a result has $600 million of outstanding overdue payment. There was a renegotiation of terms and an agreement was reached but they still weren't paying. Now they've resumed with the transaction but that transaction is a fraction of what is supposed to be paid, or in more deliberate terms, the combined transaction for this FY and a planned transaction for the next FY isn't even half of what they are supposed to pay annualy.

Then there are othe stuff under the surface and things that cannot be officially confirmed but are quite obvious, such as how the Indonesian attitude noticeably changed after the clarifications by the Korean govt. and the huge arms deal with the Poles.