Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Madokafc]

Your students get to study in Turkey for degrees relevant to military tech and your graduates get junior-positions in Turkish institutions for know-how accumulation. With this knowledge Indonesia can design their own military products. This requires a strategic partnership of at least a decade though.

I am pretty sure @Anmdt had said to you before, even as Indonesian i feel slightly ashamed but there is always lacking of commitment for what we did especially one which need long term commitment. Boramae and Nanggala second batch contract is already a glaring example.

And thing is not that simply in Indonesia, even some people doesn't know what it is economy of scale and easily back off from presented number and resource need to be spent to achieved that. C705 projects is another example though the Chinese is giving more leeway at the time before the cooperation being ended one sidedly. In this aspect countries like Pakistan or even India is much more worthed and decent.

 

[Umigami]

Lol,

I would not even bother if Indonesia finally chose Gripen or whatever thing at the end of the program and actually found what they get is not that much important to their condition and need at the end of day. But as an Indonesian i still hold my conciousness as Indonesian and trying the best to help what Indonesia need while doing my job and arrange thing to match into what we called Win Win Solution without affecting my professional ethic. Fortunately it is not you at the helmet of this matter or business, trying to take much bargain at the start of negotiation, trying to put condition upon us while not giving equivalence trading on the Table while it is you who clearly need our cooperation in the first place is not help this Country very much. Fortunately the one i got in the touch about this matter is much more humble and knowing the glaring truth about Indonesia need, condition of our defense industry and capability compared to you.

ps, just let the Indonesian government solved their Boramae problem and fulfilling their commitment first. The whole world already taking notes what Indonesian capable doing at, dragging things, delaying projects agreed upon beforehand and further more break the contract profesionally drafted.

At this point do you still confident enough LM proposal can beat Dassault?
08 udah cinta mati kayaknya...
And his 20 billion requests already got approved.

I think the one you can beat is actually Boeing.

 

[Philips]

I am pretty sure @Anmdt had said to you before, even as Indonesian i feel slightly ashamed but there is always lacking of commitment for what we did especially one which need long term commitment. Boramae and Nanggala second batch contract is already a glaring example.

And thing is not that simply in Indonesia, even some people doesn't know what it is economy of scale and easily back off from presented number and resource need to be spent to achieved that. C705 projects is another example though the Chinese is giving more leeway at the time before the cooperation being ended one sidedly. In this aspect countries like Pakistan or even India is much more worthed and decent.

I know the history, but that doesn't mean Indonesia has to stay this way forever. They do need to hurry up though for I would like to see Indonesia being able to hold its own at least partially against an ever threatening China. For this Turkey is an excellent partner as they are eager to make money from their military products. But if Indonesia waits for too long then the Turks will be less eager to offer co-production and will become like the other defence giants. Just sell and no ToT.

 

[Stuka Dive]

We heard this sales pitch countless times before. We don't need this. It sounds like afterthought anyway.

Ok, I'll make a very reasonable offer for you. We'll buy those 72 Falcons, but you have to give us the production license for F-16V. Full backing, full support, full guidance, full assistance, full responsibility for long-term (30-40 years). You'll teach and guide us from A-to-Z how to make formidable 4th-4.5th gen aircraft. The target is, the next F-16V (or whatever the next 4.5th gen you have) that we need, must be produced in-house.

We have been giving you a lot of money for decades. We would even give you a lot more money if we agree to this. Billions of dollars. That's people money. Our money. We've been feeding you. The average Indonesians who struggling with their daily life have been filing up your pockets. So this is the least that you can give us.

We don't even need your money. We only need your knowledge & expertise.

Deal?

The F-21 program just fit for this objective, not just ToT of production license + future co-development, if we talking about beneficial offset we can ask LM to invest in production facility here & other CAPEX here, be it joint venture with PTDI or 100 % "Lockheed Martin Indonesia" , it will meet Jokowi's ambition to become global chain of military industry though. Just recruit as many as Indonesians to become engineers, technicians, specialists, etc on this Lockheed Martin Indonesia. That knowledges and experiences will eventually be ours.

 

[Madokafc]

At this point do you still confident enough LM proposal can beat Dassault?
08 udah cinta mati kayaknya...
And his 20 billion requests already got approved.

I think the one you can beat is actually Boeing.

Rafale done deal lah

But i got the feeling we can landing some contract one or another for fighter project. Hercules is quite a possible deal especially possible follow on order option still on the Table, the other stuff need more time to be discussed.

S70 still possibility, as there is pitch here (but for other branch)

Other guy in the Rotorcraft Division is mention about his trying to offer our Heavy Chopper to counter Boeing CH47

 

[Madokafc]

I know the history, but that doesn't mean Indonesia has to stay this way forever. They do need to hurry up though for I would like to see Indonesia being able to hold its own at least partially against an ever threatening China. For this Turkey is an excellent partner as they are eager to make money from their military products. But if Indonesia waits for too long then the Turks will be less eager to offer co-production and will become like the other defence giants. Just sell and no ToT.

Thank for you concern, hope everything would be more better in future. I hope my country way of doing thing be more meticulous, rigid yet direct and honest to the point.

 

[R4duga]

Rafale done deal lah

But i got the feeling we can landing some contract one or another for fighter project. Hercules is quite a possible deal especially possible follow on order option still on the Table, the other stuff need more time to be discussed.

S70 still possibility, as there is pitch here (but for other branch)

Other guy in the Rotorcraft Division is mention about his trying to offer our Heavy Chopper to counter Boeing CH47

another hercules or the previous 5 one ? will the UK Export Finance became the loan lender again ?https://assets.publishing.service.g...e_Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2020_to_2021.pdf

 

[Madokafc]

another hercules or the previous 5 one ? will the UK Export Finance became the loan lender again ?https://assets.publishing.service.g...e_Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2020_to_2021.pdf View attachment 24015

Follow on order

The other question is depend on

 

[trishna_amrta]

When the acquisition of KF 21 happen? Pre-2024 or after 2024?

Looks like after 2028

My best guess is post 2030, that still assuming there is still enough interest in them, which by that time will be a big IF by itself considering the technology level.

 

[Ravager]

I have a better proposal for the TNI-AU

1. Sign strategic partnership with Turkey

2. Double the amount of F-16. Get older blocks, upgrade them with Turkish components of the Ozgur project +AESA+Bozdogan/Gokdogan/Gokhan+ a whole assortiment of guided weapons with (partial) license production.

3. Sign agreement to be the first to invest in TF-X with (partial) licence production.

4. Get Aksungur/Akinci/MIUS/TB2/3 also under license plus regional maintenance and service.

5. Get Turkish helicopters T625/T925 and attack helicopters with (partial) license production.

6. A whole lot of surface-attack missiles from ATMACA and SOM to UMTAS and CIRIT.

7. Radars and SAM also under license production.

8. Other systems not related to the air force

Pro's: Truly kickstarting Indonesian defence industry, no limit to weapons production and procurement (consider yourselves lucky if you have on average 2 AIM-120's for every US fighter that you have)

Cons: forking multiple billions of dollars (10B?) over the course of 10+ years. Cancellation of Rafale+F-15EX and in the long run the KF-X.

Indonesia can do it and the Turks would be willing to. The only thing Indonesia is lacking is the will and ambition. I hope that IDEF-21 will convince the Indonesian MoD to go full Turk

Dude , while i shared the sentiment . The time isn't ripe as yet .... What Indonesia lack is never money , brain power , technoogical means nor a die hard fanatic potential . What we lacked is mostly commitment . Do you think all of this corrupted environment couldn't be dealt with within decade should we ever committed to it's cause wholeheartedly ????
Until such paradigms were shifted for a better we are as nation are stucked in this loophole . Yeah , thinngs are gradually changes to a better but it still takes times . Yet , time was a luxury we couldn't afford as now ... Indonesia were at the crossroad today . Wether we are gradually moving up to a ladder or get stucked within the midle income trap in perpetuity . We as Indonesian has to deal our inner demon first before we could make a mark in the annal of history .
Turkey and Indonesia are a natural ally in every sense of the words ... but the core recipe for every succesfull enggagement always come from an equal position of power and sincerity . and we haven't come to that phase as yet . Let's left the nature to decide it's course . It's only a matter of time anyway .... Nobody satisfied to be doormat of US and yet nobody eager to get doormated by another asshole too ...

 

[trishna_amrta]

Just please, pretty please, take nickel off the table. It's one of few remaining strategic resources we have which will be far more beneficial for us in the long run if we're just keep sticking to our plan to make battery and EV vehicle production centers in here.

That is, unless some technological breaktrough happening in the near future that will only makes us lose our advantage.

We can reliably expect demand for nickel to remain high for at least 3 decades into the future (that I can reliably foresee). The most potential emerging secondary battery technology is Lithium-Air, that could theoretically provide energy density equal to that of gasoline

Oh, and speaking about EVs - especially since this is a thread about Indonesian Air Force - we're heading for a future where electric passenger airplanes are going to be widely used, at least for ranges of 300 km and below. In military terms, while they won't replace conventional combat aircrafts which use fossil based fuels anytime soon, but the implication is clear especially if we're going to build more of our own UAV / UCAV after Elang Hitam.

is EV passenger plane already a thing ? i thought hydrogen is going to be the next one before EV getting matured , the latest varian of Boeing Insitu Scaneagle 3 also proposed to use hydrogen .

In the next two or three years, at least. While they will only be 9-12 seaters commuter-class airplane, but if the calculations in that video is not too far off the mark, then it will be quite profitable for their operators.

Granted, the example shown was in the US. But even if they won't arrive in Indonesia until the next decade at soonest, we can still 'ride' the wave by implementing electric techs into UAVs / UCAVs.

Future aircraft jet engine (?). Full electric, just need air and electricity.

Electric airplane is currently still in its infancy stage due to the unavailability of battery technology with sufficient energy density (at least need to be in par to that of kerosene). And until Lithium-Air battery technology become mature enough, aviation will still need to rely on burning dino-juice aka kerosene.

 

[Anmdt]

corrupted environment

brain power

money

loophole

The common point of these keywords:

They way out: Fund education, fund universities, fund researchers and scientists. It costs far less than funding an industry.
For example Taiwan, Korea all rised up by funding research first. Korea used heavy industries as part of funding, Taiwan didn't had much resources but still were committed to education among others.

Those people, students are committed to a country, an engineer however is usually committed to money, a researcher is less likely to get a job offer when s/he shines but an engineer is more likely to get an offer from abroad once s/he sparks and polishes his/her profile in linkedin.
An engineer fits to an environment, a scientist creates an environment.

 

[Philips]

The common point of these keywords:

They way out: Fund education, fund universities, fund researchers and scientists. It costs far less than funding an industry.
For example Taiwan, Korea all rised up by funding research first. Korea used heavy industries as part of funding, Taiwan didn't had much resources but still were committed to education among others.

Those people, students are committed to a country, an engineer however is usually committed to money, a researcher is less likely to get a job offer when s/he shines but an engineer is more likely to get an offer from abroad once s/he sparks and polishes his/her profile in linkedin.
An engineer fits to an environment, a scientist creates an environment.

And the best shortcut to all of this: Turkey

 

[Anmdt]

And the best shortcut to all of this: Turkey

Not actually, Turkey sends many students / researchers and even some official workers abroad for education (UK/US/EU/Japan) so Indonesia could do, and already doing.
Just not in the extends that i would expect to.

 

[Philips]

Not actually, Turkey sends many students / researchers and even some official workers abroad for education (UK/US/EU/Japan) so Indonesia could do, and already doing.
Just not in the extends that i would expect to.

That is not a shortcut though.

 

[Anmdt]

That is not a shortcut though.

There is never a shortcut, have never been.
It only looks like a shortcut, a "goat path", which eventually fades and then you can either find the way back or ahead, being always depended on a shepherd to show way out.
It is always better to struggle and find the way out with some limited assistance gained via ToT, creating your own plan dedicated for your own people, your own economy, knowing every aspect of your nation.

 

[Philips]

with some limited assistance gained via ToT

This is the shortcut I was talking about. Best option for Indonesia is Turkey.

 

[Anmdt]

This is the shortcut I was talking about. Best option for Indonesia is Turkey.

It is not like the past for both Turkey and Indonesia, yes Turkey could be a boost for certain things but i don't know if Turkey would offer the same as some years ago, or Indonesia would accept a different basis as they have advanced meanwhile. I don't really have any idea about the last MoD's opinion about Turkey.

The earlier negotiations (a few years ago) was really strange at some point, i have ranted in a few threads that some of those delegation should be retired and leaving for the youth. Looks like it has happened.

 

[joedhie2k]

I have a better proposal for the TNI-AU

1. Sign strategic partnership with Turkey

2. Double the amount of F-16. Get older blocks, upgrade them with Turkish components of the Ozgur project +AESA+Bozdogan/Gokdogan/Gokhan+ a whole assortiment of guided weapons with (partial) license production.

3. Sign agreement to be the first to invest in TF-X with (partial) licence production.

4. Get Aksungur/Akinci/MIUS/TB2/3 also under license plus regional maintenance and service.

5. Get Turkish helicopters T625/T925 and attack helicopters with (partial) license production.

6. A whole lot of surface-attack missiles from ATMACA and SOM to UMTAS and CIRIT.

7. Radars and SAM also under license production.

8. Other systems not related to the air force

Pro's: Truly kickstarting Indonesian defence industry, no limit to weapons production and procurement (consider yourselves lucky if you have on average 2 AIM-120's for every US fighter that you have)

Cons: forking multiple billions of dollars (10B?) over the course of 10+ years. Cancellation of Rafale+F-15EX and in the long run the KF-X.

Indonesia can do it and the Turks would be willing to. The only thing Indonesia is lacking is the will and ambition. I hope that IDEF-21 will convince the Indonesian MoD to go full Turk

your idea isnt new.. that is what the original plan looks like with the S.Koreans

and even then people complaint that Koreans stuff is up to no good, lack of funding, lack of willingness, the main project (KFX) is crap, Koreans fool us by not giving full access, tricked by US, etc etc yada yada yada

so sounds good but IMO it will be just same with current Indo-Korean deals

hint: just look to the Kaplan MT / Harimau Hitam project.. the cooperation happened and works and it still in our side who cant commit

 

[Madokafc]

It is not like the past for both Turkey and Indonesia, yes Turkey could be a boost for certain things but i don't know if Turkey would offer the same as some years ago, or Indonesia would accept a different basis as they have advanced meanwhile. I don't really have any idea about the last MoD's opinion about Turkey.

The earlier negotiations (a few years ago) was really strange at some point, i have ranted in a few threads that some of those delegation should be retired and leaving for the youth. Looks like it has happened.

The previous MoD and their team even for lacksluster Indonesia standard is a disaster level in the making. There is many programme got stalled at his administration.

The most notorious example is his failure to secure military satelite deals, which Made Indonesia government facing the court, Harimau Hitam and KFX case look like a child play at his hand