Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[joedhie2k]

so like i said in KFX funding thread..

never underestimate the stupidity of our government official

 

[Anmdt]

The previous MoD and their team even for lacksluster Indonesia standard is a disaster level in the making. There is many programme got stalled at his administration.

As an outsider i didn't want to talk about them further I have really ranted months or a year ago in some other threads about them.

 

[Ravager]

The common point of these keywords:

They way out: Fund education, fund universities, fund researchers and scientists. It costs far less than funding an industry.
For example Taiwan, Korea all rised up by funding research first. Korea used heavy industries as part of funding, Taiwan didn't had much resources but still were committed to education among others.

Those people, students are committed to a country, an engineer however is usually committed to money, a researcher is less likely to get a job offer when s/he shines but an engineer is more likely to get an offer from abroad once s/he sparks and polishes his/her profile in linkedin.
An engineer fits to an environment, a scientist creates an environment.

And brother ... All of those brilliant ideas are needed a commitment and efforts for it to become manifested reality . With a different regimes and different political agendas hijacked with a corruptional intentions all of those Indonesian potential are squandered away . We have too much homework to be done yet very litle serious attention ever given to the education sector .more than their bare of necessity .While decent pay could motivate some enthusiasm among the teacher without proper rooms for classes and teaching facilities to motivate student's enthusiasm all those honourable intentions are nothing more than a lip services .
Add this covid disatster with a whole online learning schemes yet it only facilitate most of children's time in the online gaming instead ...

And the best shortcut to all of this: Turkey

There is always a different road to go for rome ... Always !!

 

[Jaka45]

The previous MoD and their team even for lacksluster Indonesia standard is a disaster level in the making. There is many programme got stalled at his administration.

The most notorious example is his failure to secure military satelite deals, which Made Indonesia government facing the court, Harimau Hitam and KFX case look like a child play at his hand

Seriously can someone enlighten me why RR is so incompetent ?

Is there is no one in those 5 years, told him that there is something called MEF that he need to work on.

Seriously the previous MoD is such disaster that it actually mind boggling.

 

[Madokafc]

As an outsider i didn't want to talk about them further I have really ranted months or a year ago in some other threads about them.

It's our job, their failure started when the Jokowi first admin started to form his budget draft in 2015, after that disaster keep coming. For example, the administration failure to provide funds for KFX started in 2016....

 

[FPXAllen]

Electric airplane is currently still in its infancy stage due to the unavailability of battery technology with sufficient energy density (at least need to be in par to that of kerosene). And until Lithium-Air battery technology become mature enough, aviation will still need to rely on burning dino-juice aka kerosene.

Indeed, the energy density is still a big problem and that's why electric planes will not taking over big capacity and long distance passenger planes anytime soon.
However, it might be a different case for shorter range commuter planes especially if the company which was mentioned in the youtube video I posted can really deliver their promises:

Eviation Alice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I must admit that I'm still taking a stance of "seeing is believing" when it comes to their claim (407 km/h & 815 km range), but even if it's only capable of half the range, it will still good enough for its intended purpose.

Anyway as I wrote earlier, eventhough electric planes probably will not arrive here until the next decade or so, but the technologies behind them - especially when combined with our advantage in the availability of crucial natural resources for them - remain worth pursuing for.

But of course, if it returns to "wani piro" talks to, say, even to just start thinking to build a R&D center for this purpuse - then all bets are off.

 

[Madokafc]

Seriously can someone enlighten me why RR is so incompetent ?

Is there is no one in those 5 years, told him that there is something called MEF that he need to work on.

Seriously the previous MoD is such disaster that it actually mind boggling.

Ok i had done so discreetly

 

[this is crunch]

Philippine military grounds Black Hawk helicopters after crash kills six

Philippine defence secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Thursday ordered the grounding of the military's fleet of Black Hawk helicopters after a crash during training mission in an province north of the capital Manila killed six people.

www.reuters.com

OOT
RIP for the fallen




duh mana barang baru...

 

[Parry Brima]

I wished things are that simple and clear cut as you presummed to be .
Even Sokor , Turkey and Japan had to bleeds deep just trying to earn that licensing grants . And they were allready acknowlegded as an Ally and bleeds their soldier for an american causes . We were never gonna earn the same treatment like them . It was that simple !!

We got nothing to lose, they got everything to lose, and they got competitors now.

You want to lose fighter market here? Be my guess.

It is that simple !!!

 

[Parry Brima]

Lol,

I would not even bother if Indonesia finally chose Gripen or whatever thing at the end of the program and actually found what they get is not that much important to their condition and need at the end of day. But as an Indonesian i still hold my conciousness as Indonesian and trying the best to help what Indonesia need while doing my job and arrange thing to match into what we called Win Win Solution without affecting my professional ethic. Fortunately it is not you at the helmet of this matter or business, trying to take much bargain at the start of negotiation, trying to put condition upon us while not giving equivalence trading on the Table while it is you who clearly need our cooperation in the first place is not help this Country very much. Fortunately the one i got in the touch about this matter is much more humble and knowing the glaring truth about Indonesia need, condition of our defense industry and capability compared to you.

ps, just let the Indonesian government solved their Boramae problem and fulfilling their commitment first. The whole world already taking notes what Indonesian capable doing at, dragging things, delaying projects agreed upon beforehand and further more break the contract profesionally drafted.

Wow! You finally show the real you! Been pretending much, huh

But seriously, this has been ridiculous. As Indonesians we have to be smarter than this. Always treat company sales and pawns as they are. Their best interest have always been money. The sweet talk only part of their tactic.

Sad to say, this is part of the huge problems we've been facing in terms of procurement for decades.

Let's just wait what the MoD will do about this

 

[Parry Brima]

I have a better proposal for the TNI-AU

1. Sign strategic partnership with Turkey

2. Double the amount of F-16. Get older blocks, upgrade them with Turkish components of the Ozgur project +AESA+Bozdogan/Gokdogan/Gokhan+ a whole assortiment of guided weapons with (partial) license production.

3. Sign agreement to be the first to invest in TF-X with (partial) licence production.

4. Get Aksungur/Akinci/MIUS/TB2/3 also under license plus regional maintenance and service.

5. Get Turkish helicopters T625/T925 and attack helicopters with (partial) license production.

6. A whole lot of surface-attack missiles from ATMACA and SOM to UMTAS and CIRIT.

7. Radars and SAM also under license production.

8. Other systems not related to the air force

Pro's: Truly kickstarting Indonesian defence industry, no limit to weapons production and procurement (consider yourselves lucky if you have on average 2 AIM-120's for every US fighter that you have)

Cons: forking multiple billions of dollars (10B?) over the course of 10+ years. Cancellation of Rafale+F-15EX and in the long run the KF-X.

Indonesia can do it and the Turks would be willing to. The only thing Indonesia is lacking is the will and ambition. I hope that IDEF-21 will convince the Indonesian MoD to go full Turk

Now we're talking

Sadly, many Indonesians only know the US, Russia, and China

 

[Parry Brima]

It's probably worth to open our eyes a bit by looking at Swiss and Finland. Swiss will announce their decision for the new fighter around next week, while Finland at the end of the year.

Swiss only operates F-18C/D and F5E, while Finland operates F-18C/D and Hawk.

Interestingly, Lockheed Martin offered F-35 to both countries. Is there any obligation to order F-16V because there's clearly a "technological gap" between their fighters and F-35? Nope. Not at all.

More interestingly, Boeing offered them F-18E/F. Surely this is gonna be the winner. No contest. Why? Because they both operate F-18C/D surely they have to buy F-18E/F, the same way Lockheed Martin has been telling us that since we operate F-16 then we simply have to buy F-16V.

You know those "commonality, interchangeability, existing ecosystem, etc" that's been throwing out by Lockheed Martin sales and pawns here. Is it gonna be the case? Will Swiss and Finland decided to go with F-18E/F? We'll see

Anyway, the competition in Swiss is between F-35, F-18E/F, Rafale, and Typhoon. In Finland it's between F-35, F-18E/F, Rafale, Typhoon, and Gripen.

 

[Ravager]

We got nothing to lose, they got everything to lose, and they got competitors now.

You want to lose fighter market here? Be my guess.

It is that simple !!!

Are you seriously comparing us with the US ?? One who has been world wide sales marketing and dictate 80 % the technological trend compared to us who barely make anything we need on our own ?? Really ...?
Reality check here pal !!! We are sorely under their whim .economic and technology !! While they were under economical woes now we are still barely under their radar . No body bother to counting the untapped potential under their accounting books only the manifested one !!
Why would Turkey , Japan and Sokor are strugling to their best of ability try to steer themselves off from US hemisphere and yet wholly tuning their momentum on never to clash with it ??
I don't know where you get your confidence from , but boy .... I glad you never were in charge of our nation administration .
On what ground we could dictate the US to cater our whim ?? Even those expired and yesteryear F 16 technology ( in your term !! ) are still a massive technological boom to other industrialized country ( even for the PRC !! ) And we barely capable just to purchase them off the shelf .

It's probably worth to open our eyes a bit by looking at Swiss and Finland. Swiss will announce their decision for the new fighter around next week, while Finland at the end of the year.

Swiss only operates F-18C/D and F5E, while Finland operates F-18C/D and Hawk.

Interestingly, Lockheed Martin offered F-35 to both countries. Is there any obligation to order F-16V because there's clearly a "technological gap" between their fighters and F-35? Nope. Not at all.

More interestingly, Boeing offered them F-18E/F. Surely this is gonna be the winner. No contest. Why? Because they both operate F-18C/D surely they have to buy F-18E/F, the same way Lockheed Martin has been telling us that since we operate F-16 then we simply have to buy F-16V.

You know those "commonality, interchangeability, existing ecosystem, etc" that's been throwing out by Lockheed Martin sales and pawns here. Is it gonna be the case? Will Swiss and Finland decided to go with F-18E/F? We'll see

Anyway, the competition in Swiss is between F-35, F-18E/F, Rafale, and Typhoon. In Finland it's between F-35, F-18E/F, Rafale, Typhoon, and Gripen.

And now you again compared our pool base technology and infrastructure readyness with the swiss and Finlands .....
There are reason why swiss was always the center of banking world . And Finland could hold the USSR at bay ....

 

[Umigami]

Phillipines F16v DSCA notice.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=126945046234769&id=104036268525647

 

[FPXAllen]

And now you again compared our pool base technology and infrastructure readyness with the swiss and Finlands .....
There are reason why swiss was always the center of banking world . And Finland could hold the USSR at bay ....

From the way I see it, he's got a point though.

The "pool base technology" and "infrastructure readiness" which often brought up as reasons why we can't have F-35s can't really hold when we consider that the air force of most nations - including us - are among the most tech-savvy service in the military. Furthermore, when it comes to infrastructure readiness, it's not something that can't be prepared within a reasonable amount of time while waiting for the first delivery to arrive.

The "technological gap" thing is just another way of saying that, politically, we're just not trustworthy enough.

Just my 0.2 kepeng, anyway.

 

[FPXAllen]

Phillipines F16v DSCA notice.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=126945046234769&id=104036268525647

Can it sway the top brass of the Philippine Armed Forces? Will they change their decision from Grippen back to F-16?

We shall see.

 

[trishna_amrta]

Anyway as I wrote earlier, eventhough electric planes probably will not arrive here until the next decade or so, but the technologies behind them - especially when combined with our advantage in the availability of crucial natural resources for them - remain worth pursuing for.

I strongly doubt we will be seeing any electric long haul flight before 2050. The problem is more than just energy density, but also in "dead weight". When kerosene burning plane consume their fuel, their weight is reduced due to fuel being burned. This is not the case with electric power, where the weight of the battery will remain as a dead weight even when power has been spent

 

[Lordimperator]

previous MoD

Wait, there was MoD back then

 

[Parry Brima]

Are you seriously comparing us with the US ?? One who has been world wide sales marketing and dictate 80 % the technological trend compared to us who barely make anything we need on our own ?? Really ...?
Reality check here pal !!! We are sorely under their whim .economic and technology !! While they were under economical woes now we are still barely under their radar . No body bother to counting the untapped potential under their accounting books only the manifested one !!
Why would Turkey , Japan and Sokor are strugling to their best of ability try to steer themselves off from US hemisphere and yet wholly tuning their momentum on never to clash with it ??
I don't know where you get your confidence from , but boy .... I glad you never were in charge of our nation administration .
On what ground we could dictate the US to cater our whim ?? Even those expired and yesteryear F 16 technology ( in your term !! ) are still a massive technological boom to other industrialized country ( even for the PRC !! ) And we barely capable just to purchase them off the shelf .

Comparing us to US? I think you need to read much slower here

Anyway, have you been sleeping in the last several months? We plan to open new billion dollars business for the US. F-15EX, Osprey, Blackhawk, C-130J, UAVs, etc. Cutting Lockheed Martin loose from fighter order (remember, only on fighter) won't mean much. In fact we might replace them with even bigger business for the US with those plans.

 

[Ravager]

From the way I see it, he's got a point though.

The "pool base technology" and "infrastructure readiness" which often brought up as reasons why we can't have F-35s can't really hold when we consider that the air force of most nations - including us - are among the most tech-savvy service in the military. Furthermore, when it comes to infrastructure readiness, it's not something that can't be prepared within a reasonable amount of time while waiting for the first delivery to arrive.

The "technological gap" thing is just another way of saying that, politically, we're just not trustworthy enough.

Just my 0.2 kepeng, anyway.

Nobody deny that ... But , still even deep down inside , you are still reluctant to accept those F 35 . Jumping straight from 4th G to 5 G requires not only a massive of technological investment it also requires a certain change of mind setting . Which most of us who know our AF top brasses haven't prepared for that as yet . Not to mention our own nation as whole reluctances to get wholly absorbed in the US ( political toxic ) environment and all of host technological hostage baggage garbage within .
Let's face it ... We were unprepared to make that jump as yet . Deal with the reality and make something out of it and not get dwelled on more and more of far cloud chasing dreams ...
We haven't even manage fully most of our neglected potential/infrastructure and yet we are try to swallow some more just to chase vanity .

Comparing us to US? I think you need to read much slower here

Anyway, have you been sleeping in the last several months? We plan to open new billion dollars business for the US. F-15EX, Osprey, Blackhawk, C-130J, UAVs, etc. Cutting Lockheed Martin loose from fighter order (remember, only on fighter) won't mean much. In fact we might replace them with even bigger business for the US with those plans.

And those of billion of $ comes from a loan were the foundation of a strength in your book ??
If those billion of $ loans were spent of goods produced and created by our own companies or facilities or investing in house to transfom our fledgling state defence sectors so we could somehow alleviate our own economic hardship and furthering our own manufacturing industrial level . i can somehow swallow it . But where most of it were spend on IP right licensing fee without a decent manufacturing outlet for it's usaging in it's production or bought whole from aboard and yet you were bragging because of it ...
Where do you think we should produce those if we ever received the licensing right ?? PT. DI ?? Yeah right ...
And yet somehow you were so confident we could somehow dictate the US to cater our whim when we couldn't even manage our own " bengkel perakitan dan reparasi " to barely a float on it's own .... It's just soo beyond me ...