Indonesia Indonesian Army,Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Darat (TNI-AD)

[Lordimperator]

I think they don't really need to have the same offroad capabilities as MBT because they don't need to maneuver closely with them...

Dont forget about the airlift, how many of them could be lifted with A400 and C130J for the future mobilization

 

[Lordimperator]

Well in that case or scenario, the Indonesian Police forces should suffice.

For now, but it would take more for the defense force of future capitol city in Borneo

 

[NEKO]

Artillery is important for any military so does for Indonesia.

Japan who don't have any land border with other country have SPH and MLRS, and Australia will be getting new MLRS and SPH they also have no land border with other country and surely it won't be used against the emus.

And why Indonesia shouldn't be getting heavy artillery?

Dont forget about the airlift, how many of them could be lifted with A400 and C130J for the future mobilization

You still can use ship for that.

 

[Synders]

Artillery is important for any military so does for Indonesia.

And why Indonesia shouldn't be getting heavy artillery?

I'm not saying we don't need heavy artillery. Thats why I compare Phz/K9 with Caesar. I just questioning whether the platform need to be tracked...
Because unlike IFV/APC which need to follow MBT closely, SPH doesn't need to do that right??? They could follow a bit farther and choose favorable spot to give support...

 

[Ravager]

You are all talking in ridles and circles ....


Regarding the neccesity . It's an important tool to spread the Freedom and Democracy around .
On what's Democrazy and Freedom's meaning is , i'm leaving that to all you for a debate



On serious note :

It's a preventive measures . If we lost the skills and system it would cost us more to bring it up again when we need it the most . And almost all of those heavy gears acquisition were prepared for an expeditionary operation ( even the MBT !! ) Which in today term would be inter island training regime .which IMO is a firefighting mode . Retaking the occupied territory whole spiel game . Which is the most hopeless and yet realistic situation considering our poor and neglected coastal and air policing/defending capabilities .

And yess , it's time to change the persfective ... Time to go on pre emptive mode instead firefighting forever .

 

[Jagdflieger]

Ah, I see your points.

Regarding Indonesian defense white book (or white paper), as far as I know the latest release was in 2015. There was no direct mention of any specific country as possible threat which - from my own perspective - was due to our "habit" (if you can call it that way) of "playing both sides" or putting each foot on one side. However, while it's not as encompassing as a white book, there's clearly a recognition of a certain country that is now being considered as having more potential to threaten Indonesia's sovereignty by direct action. This was shown in the document during the Indonesian Armed Forces officers training course a couple of years back.

A White Book actually never states or names a potential enemy - but simply forces and its branches equipment that could pose a threat. E.g. PLA, PLAF, PLAN, USN. USAF etc. basically the same reference but diplomatically a huge difference towards stating e.g. China or USA.

Due to the nature of the country's geography, the heavy stuffs like army's MBTs and howitzers are usually stationed in certain islands where invasions will likely to happen. This is also a weakness, I presume, because it basically tied each of those units to where they are stationed and turned them as a defensive forces with limited mobility.

Unlike Germany or most other countries your archipelago consists of thousands of islands - which individually (wherever the threat occurs) can only be supported, reinforced via ship or air. Indonesia doesn't have the economy to actually span an encompassing fixed defense throughout it's territory.
As such a White Book recognizes/acknowledges this and develops an according defense plan.
E.g. standard territorial units are stationed with light weapons on strategic islands or possible zones of conflict. In order to support a zone of conflict a rapid deployment force needs to be set up - e.g. 3-5 brigades - since these need to be moved "rapidly" via air they can only be armed with light weapons and heavy support assets via ship can only be brought into a zone of conflict if the navy or air-force can ensure their safety - being in control of these mediums.
Otherwise as you know a Leo2 company and heavy artillery assets stationed in e.g. Surabaya are meaningless if the zone of conflict turns out to be e.g. Batam Island or Northern Kalimantan.
And again a White Book would outline such possibilities and develop an Armed Forces Structure able to react onto such scenarios. Which IMO would exclude spending a large budget towards heavy weapons but concentrate towards a light and highly weaponized rapid deployment force.

This is why starting from the last decade or so, the procurement portions for the Navy and Air Force have gradually increased - dramatically so in the last few years.

And they need to be increased far more - especially towards the Air-force - instead of "wasting/diverting" precious resources onto MBT's or heavy barreled artillery.

Anyway, sorry for being curious. As a German living in China, how do you see the Chinese populace's perspective regarding the issues specifically in relation to the standoff in the North Natuna Sea? Yes, I know that China has protested our decision to change the name of the location, and also yes, that I have some preconception regarding the answer to the question, but I still like to know from someone who still live there.

Chinese populace: very peaceful and hard working people foremost interested in making $, so that one day they can buy a Mercedes or a second home.
Chinese government: overanxious in regards to securing their zone of defense, resources and as such securing their population. Which in turn makes it easy for the USA to point them out as being supposedly aggressive. Personally I am not in favor as to how the Chinese government bullies around a peaceful neighbor like the Philippines. However Beijing does not see or regard the Philippines as an enemy or target) intimidating Manila is actually Beijing's (IMO questionable approach) to get Manila out of the USA influence and to convince them that it would be far more in their interest to align or cooperate with China.

Indonesia as any other country (including e.g. Germany) will never have the sole ability to militarily safeguard it's territory towards a Superpower or an aggressive neighbor with a comparable economic strength. (not even to mention towards an alliance of such neighbors). So Germany (more or less no big choice in that matter) opted for NATO.

As for S.E.A. it's way beyond time to finally make up their minds as to setting up an individual - neutral - defense pact, or an alliance loose or more devoted towards the USA or China. Human nature or fact of life is that the stronger partner will always make sure that he gets a better deal for himself - strategic outposts, influencing it's allies or securing a larger portion of resources.

So e.g. Indonesia needs to decide what kind of alliance gives/provides them the better package overall.
IMO it's China, because they want to trade and as such provide means for an ally or friendly nation to increase it's GDP - logically the more $ your partner can spend the better for China's own economy.
China's main policy is not the occupation of other nations, or stealing their resources but to push out US political dominance in Asia.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Artillery is important for any military so does for Indonesia.

Japan who don't have any land border with other country have SPH and MLRS, and Australia will be getting new MLRS and SPH they also have no land border with other country and surely it won't be used against the emus.

And why Indonesia shouldn't be getting heavy artillery?


You still can use ship for that.

Artillery is certainly important - but one needs an effective artillery for a designed specified purpose/objective. Please see my reply to FPX ALLEN.

Japan, Korea and Australia are partners with the USA - for the Asian partners North-Korea is the actual concern not the defense of Japanese or Australian territory.
In case of war with e.g. North-Korea they need to be able to supply a range of weapons - e.g. heavy and expensive stuff that South-Korea on it's own can't finance - that is what "strategic partners" or allies are about - together we can handle issues.

If e.g. Beijing decides to take the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands by force - it doesn't matter how many tanks or artillery Japan has based on it's immediate homeland. taking Chinese naval and air superiority into account it would be HIGHLY doubtful that japan would be able to send any equipment from Japans mainland to the Senkakus.

So whatever Japan stations on those islands (basically nothing) only helps to deter a possible aggression - more like; you won't get it for free - we make some attempt so that you can't just land a tourist party in order to claim "our" Islands.

 

[NEKO]

IMO it's China, because they want to trade and as such provide means for an ally or friendly nation to increase it's GDP - logically the more $ your partner can spend the better for China's own economy.
China's main policy is not the occupation of other nations, or stealing their resources but to push

Nah.
Its enough to have a good relationship, trade and investment with China.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

Redirect Notice

As you can see, American approcah to Indonesia still in grey. Even at most Indonesian approach is leaning toward west, US never see this as an opportunity. Henche, they now panicking wether to protect taiwan or to keep the support for their presence in Pacific.

 

[chibiyabi]

China's main policy is not the occupation of other nations, or stealing their resources but to push out US political dominance in Asia.

WTF.. what happen about nine dash lines LOL

 

[Van Kravchenko]

what kind of alliance gives/provides them the better package overall

Well, we call it Free-Active Policy which Indonesia didn't take account in such military alliance (read Neutral), but as you can see today Indonesian Weapons and arms mostly made by western standard since the war of independence.
thus, make Indonesia have no natural or by agreement Ally.

China's main policy is not the occupation of other nations, or stealing their resources but to push out US political dominance in Asia.

ekhemmm..... excuse me sir, madam, have you see 9 dashed line problem in this entire year, Chino has grab island/reef from Pinoy, Vietnam, Malaysia, and steal the water sovereignty from Brunei.

today, Indonesian drilling in its EEZ got harrashment everyday from China, and weridly they send a protest letter to Indonesia because Indonesia Drill an oil rig on its own EEZ, , ,

we have only guts, and god, yeah its an irony to say all of our military gear rendered useless againts China southern fleet.



then, here we come the use of the Self Propelled gun, to shell the landing enemy infantry forces such happened in Ukraine right now.

thats why the theme of TNI excercise is always "RECAPTURE TERITORY CLAIMED BY ADVERSARY" since we haven't any super duper weapon to defend it.

 

[Umigami]

Well, we call it Free-Active Policy which Indonesia didn't take account in such military alliance (read Neutral), but as you can see today Indonesian Weapons and arms mostly made by western standard since the war of independence.
thus, make Indonesia have no natural or by agreement Ally.



ekhemmm..... excuse me sir, madam, have you see 9 dashed line problem in this entire year, Chino has grab island/reef from Pinoy, Vietnam, Malaysia, and steal the water sovereignty from Brunei.

today, Indonesian drilling in its EEZ got harrashment everyday from China, and weridly they send a protest letter to Indonesia because Indonesia Drill an oil rig on its own EEZ, , ,

we have only guts, and god, yeah its an irony to say all of our military gear rendered useless againts China southern fleet.



then, here we come the use of the Self Propelled gun, to shell the landing enemy infantry forces such happened in Ukraine right now.

thats why the theme of TNI excercise is always "RECAPTURE TERITORY CLAIMED BY ADVERSARY" since we haven't any super duper weapon to defend it.

I'm a little bit suspicious about this Jagd guy

 

[chibiyabi]

I'm a little bit suspicious about this Jagd guy

western rusky fanboy

 

[Jagdflieger]

Well, we call it Free-Active Policy which Indonesia didn't take account in such military alliance (read Neutral), but as you can see today Indonesian Weapons and arms mostly made by western standard since the war of independence.
thus, make Indonesia have no natural or by agreement Ally.

As i stated earlier on: it is Indonesia's decision if they want to stay neutral or join an alliance
Independent of this issue - the question still remains as to how the Indonesian Armed Forces intend to transport heavy stuff to a respective hot/war zone. (especially in a scenario which beholds a capable adversary).

ekhemmm..... excuse me sir, madam, have you see 9 dashed line problem in this entire year, Chino has grab island/reef from Pinoy, Vietnam, Malaysia, and steal the water sovereignty from Brunei.
today, Indonesian drilling in its EEZ got harrashment everyday from China, and weridly they send a protest letter to Indonesia because Indonesia Drill an oil rig on its own EEZ, , ,

Firstly it was not the PRC that determined or drew up the nine dash line/but the KMT in the 1920's with it's 11 dash line (internationally never being objected)
It was changed into a 9 dash line by Mao in agreement with Vietnam, that the Tonking area is Vietnamese territory
Even Taipei upholds it's claims towards the 9 dash line and objected towards the international courts ruling just as the PRC

The PRC's main argument is that "historically" large parts of the South China Sea were discovered and claimed latest during the Ming Dynasty - at a time were only Japan, the Sultanate of Brunei and partially Vietnam existed as united independent states - including in parts their present territory since their deceleration of independence in the 20th century. Before it was colonial powers who at their own will drew lines/borders and as such simply disrespecting previous Chinese claims.
Now the PRC is a big power and simply states; we don't agree onto colonial drawn borders disrespecting our previous claims and claim it back - which already was done by the KMT - at a time were natural resources weren't really even known or talked about.
As such the 11 dash line was viewed upon as "worthless" islands and sea territory and not objected to by e.g. the USA or states like Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia
that didn't exist before the 1940's. And their previous colonial masters couldn't be bothered about the KMT claim.

As such I will leave it up to the respective politicians or claimant states to come up with a peaceful and economic prosperous solution.
I am not talking any ones side in this - as I had already stated, I do not favor the "bully" approach e.g. by the PRC toward the Philippines.
But I had also made it clear that IMO, China is purposely doing this just to show - e.g. hello Philippines would you like us to come up with a common solution or do you simply want to rely onto a USA simply flexing it's muscles in that issue? - as such not really being of any help towards a peaceful solution and basically blocking any attempt towards a common exploration of natural resources.

we have only guts, and god, yeah its an irony to say all of our military gear rendered useless againts China southern fleet.
then, here we come the use of the Self Propelled gun, to shell the landing enemy infantry forces such happened in Ukraine right now.
thats why the theme of TNI excercise is always "RECAPTURE TERITORY CLAIMED BY ADVERSARY" since we haven't any super duper weapon to defend it.

That is why I brought up the White Book issue - since this would be a basic tool in order to design an effective Indonesian Armed Forces.

It is not my intention to start a discussion about the South-China-Sea issue - since WE won't be the ones to come up with a viable or satisfying solution.
But taking future tensions or possible zone's of conflict into account - might make it interesting to discuss about the Indonesian Armed Forces regarding it's present equipment, future purchases and as such the possible best layout conception of the Indonesian Armed Forces.

 

[flogger]

I kinda wonder about the relevancy of tracked SPH for our "future" heavy brigade. Does it really need to be tracked or a wheeled one like Caesar is enough to support Leo??? I think they don't really need to have the same offroad capabilities as MBT because they don't need to maneuver closely with them...

Of course for IFV/APC that accompany MBT its better to be tracked because they need to maneuver alongside them. But for SPH who only need to shoot and scoot???

I heard they are interst to get another batch of caesar with more bigger / longer / advandce platform...who know's 5 oktober 2024 maybe

 

[FPXAllen]

Can't help but to respond to this:

The PRC's main argument is that "historically" large parts of the South China Sea were discovered and claimed latest during the Ming Dynasty - at a time were only Japan, the Sultanate of Brunei and partially Vietnam existed as united independent states

I guess both KMT and PRC historians have conveniently forgotten that the Majapahit empire also existed and flourished during the Ming dynasty's reign. In fact, it can be argued that both empires were at their peak around the same time, i.e. mid-14 to the mid-15th century. Also, when the famed Ming dynasty's expedition - or show of force - led by Zheng He arrived in Java at a time when Majapahit's influence started to decline, it was still in control of the sea around Riau and Natuna islands.

This is one of the reasons why Indonesia considers China's nine-dash line claim is nonsensical especially when it overlaps the Indonesian EEZ. Another one is the fact that China is also one of UNCLOS' signatories which govern the 200-nautical miles EEZ, among others. Therefore, when Chinese government officials put out statements like "China wants to promote peace in the SCS" or similar, it doesn't mean anything to us since so far we still see that China has not done anything meaningful to practice what it preaches.

Anyway, this is not the place to discuss or debate the SCS issue so I will stop here. I appreciate that you're taking a balanced approach compared to some people who seem like they're not here to have a healthy and productive discussion by respecting different perspectives other than their own.

As i stated earlier on: it is Indonesia's decision if they want to stay neutral or join an alliance

It's probably interesting to note that the official explanation regarding Indonesia's "free and active" foreign policy is not of "neutrality". As such, while it may sound ambiguous, confusing, or even contradictory for some, for Indonesia to form or join a military alliance is not impossible either.

the question still remains as to how the Indonesian Armed Forces intend to transport heavy stuff to a respective hot/war zone. (especially in a scenario which beholds a capable adversary).

With magic, of course. We have plenty of "experts" who can teleport stones, nails, and even daggers right inside someone's stomach... Should be easy for them to teleport an armored division from Java to anywhere in Indonesia in a flash.

Joke aside, although the Indonesian Navy is operating a number of LPDs, and they - together with the Indonesian Army - have already exercised how to move troops and heavy military hardware across the sea to another location, the fact remains that it's not an answer for quick deployment, especially against a capable state-actor adversary. Those LPDs will be at risk of being sunk on the way either by the enemy's anti-ship missiles or torpedos.

This is probably one of the reasons why the Indonesian Air Force wants to acquire heavy lifter aircraft. While even the A400M is still unable to transport an MBT, it still has a 30-ton payload capacity - enough for a CAESAR SPH or probably a Harimau tank.

On the other hand, in order to be able to transport a meaningful amount of heavy equipment by air mean that the Air Force must have at least 10-12 of that aircraft - something that likely won't happen anytime soon.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537067067362316288

Rheinmetall Panther, Leo 2, K2, K1A1, Czech T72:

 

[morningstar]

T72

If the same configuration that common in Russia, a disgrace and laughing stock. The publicity is bad recent time, known to turned its crews to accidental cosmonauts.

 

[NEKO]

Are we in a dire need of MBT? Are we facing a serious threats against MBT?

I think that any potential enemy armored vehicles mostly will be consisted of lighter armored one, and MBT will be in a small number.

 

[Lordimperator]

Are we in a dire need of MBT? Are we facing a serious threats against MBT?

I think that any potential enemy armored vehicles mostly will be consisted of lighter armored one, and MBT will be in a small number.

What is your opinion regarding potential enemy will be faced with Leopard RI?Type 15 tank?