Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)
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If AH140 will be equipped with kronos dual band, its a FREMM evo with AH140 hull
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Gary
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I found this interesting post in quora about the FDI v Sigma 11515 some time ago.
Karena FDI lagi tren, mungkin post disini gapap ya
Should Greece get the Sigma 11515 frigate or the Belhara frigate?
www.quora.com
qr.ae
By a wide margin, the SIGMA 11515.
In my opinion, the Belh@ra should not even be considered 2nd, that position belongs to the Arrowhead 140, but I will be digressing should I throw a 3rd ship in the mix.
FDI or Belh@rra: The French boats have been enjoying a lot of popularity with the Greek public, mainly due to the French stance to support Greece in the latest exchange of battleship bravado with the Turkish fleet during the summer of 2020.
The SIGMA 11515: On paper weapons’ systems and capabilities look on par with the FDI. But with a little more digging and technical understanding the conclusions are very different and greatly favor the SIGMA. Furthermore, the Dutch offer an interim solution that the French cannot match. Despite Greece’s attempt to disconnect the interim from the new boats deals, for the Dutch it’s obviously a packaged deal.
To all my fellow Greek Belh@ra-Loving Criminals, please be patient and read on. Hopefully, some seeds of doubt about the much advertized French ships will be sowed in your heads after reading this article.
Let’s proceed to examine each proposal separately for the operational and geopolitical aspects.
1) Operational comparisson
1a) Anti-Air Warfare:
Aster-30 long range SAM test-firing off of a Sylver-70 VLS.
SIGMA: 4 // FDI: 1.
Now let’s have a look at how both ships will perform in
1b) AntiSubmarine Warfare (ASW)
MH-60R helo dipping its sonar
Although on paper both boats come with a modern hull sonar, the supremacy of the SIGMA in ASW is even more clear than in AAW, for a number of reasons:
ASW Subtotal
SIGMA: 4 // FDI: 0.
1c) Surface Warfare
The reality of naval warfare today: Network centric operations.
Because no single radar can beat the curvature of the Earth, tracking low flying targets below the horizon (~20km) can be achieved by linking the CMS of multiple assets that will exchange information with each other. In this way, a HN Super Vita Roussen Class missile boat can track a rogue Harpoon ASM flying past it and relay the information to the Frigate that is 100km away. Then the Frigate can launch an Aster-30 or SM-2 to destroy the threat well before it will appear on its own radar. At the same time the frigate will launch a salvo of its own Exocets or NSMs against the enemy warship where the rogue Harpoon came from.
Sounds simple, yes?
Well, no, not so much.
For this to happen both ships (or helicopters, UAVs, AWACS, whatever asset carries a radar) will need more than just the secure connection (Data Link 16/22). They need their Combat Management Systems (that will ultimately fire a weapon) to speak the same language.
And herein lies another great disadvantage -perhaps the greatest- of the FDI proposal to Greece. Its SETIS CMS is not only incompatible with the rest of the HN’s systems. But also, the rival SIGMA frigate is offered with TACTICOS, the same CMS currently found in all of the HN’s major surface units - of the ELLI
[1]
, HYDRA
[2]
and ROUSSEN
[3]
classes! Moreover, Signaal Greece has integrated TACTICOS with the HAF coastal radars and the CMS of the P-3B Orion aircraft
[4]
. And last but not least, HAF’s AWACS (Erieye) provide HNs Tacticos equipped units with radar data.
Essentially this means that the new frigates that will come with TACTICOS, on top of all this system’s virtues, will enjoy network centric warfare capabilities out-of-the-box. This is a game changer for naval warfare and a prerequisite for the present and future. As such, in my opinion at least, any proposal without TACTICOS integration should have been deemed unacceptable for Greece right off the bat.
Other than that, ASMs carried by both the SIGMA and FDI are quite capable. The original Dutch offer included Harpoon or NSM ASMs, vs. the Exocet Blk III of the FDIs. No point in comparing those options, however, as TACTICOS is already integrated with the Exocet, so if the HN decides to go with that missile they may very well put it on the SIGMA frigates.
So final tally here
Surface Warfare Subtotal
SIGMA: 1 // FDI: 0.
Now let’s sum it all up to see operationally what is the final score.
Total Operational Score
SIGMA: 9 // FDI: 1.
Note that in order to keep this as competitive as possible, I have not even included other factors such as the ease of adoption for the HN which has been operating numerous Dutch frigates for years. Nor the packaged deal with the M-Class Karel Doorman frigates that the Dutch are throwing in the mix for close to nothing, should we choose the SIGMA.
In any case, political reasons did allow for such a poor fit operationally to make it into the short list. Now let’s discuss those reasons.
2) Geopolitical Evaluation
Right, so this is where the French proposal is the strongest. Or is it?
Indeed France has proven a valuable ally for Greece in the past and more recently during the latest Greco-Turkish crisis. They were the only vocal European Union member to speak out against, what to Greece seems Erdogan’s agressive, revisionist and expansionist stance.
How so? is my first question.
Well, out of love for Greece isn’t a reliable answer when it comes to international politics, despite the fact that the two peoples share no emnity. In truth, France had been on a collision trajectory with Turkey for quite some time. You see, Erdogan’s expansion into N. Africa, the Levant and the Red Sea, has bumped onto existing French presence and interests there. So France was naturally very eager to grab the opportunity to jump at Erdogan when he was escalating the crisis with Greece. Macron did it without having any solid rewards at that point. He did it because it served France’s wider agenda. The contract for the Rafales came later, as an added bonus.
Speaking of Rafales, the contract for 18 units is an important reward in itself. But it also means that there will be significantly more revenue streams in the future with HAF needing at least 2 squadrons for a miminum viable fleet. Also, revenue streams for training, support, upgrades etc. are more than enough to establish a “strategic” alliance/cooperation between the countries.
Therefore, Greece can already claim an ally in France, and with hard cash to back it up (Rafale). No sale of Frigates is going to change that, or add anything to it.
In conclusion
In my opinion, the decision for the frigates should be swayed by the geopolitical factor to whatever degree, only as long as the operational factor is satisfied. The geopolitical factor is a necessary but NOT sufficient condition. The boats have to do the job the HN wants them for. As demonstrated, the SIGMA is by far the better fit for the Hellenic Navy. In fact, the flaws of the FDI are so fundamental that despite their many virtues they are unfortunately unfit for the HN. Given that the Dutch are not vetoed out for political reasons, this should make the choice between the two a no-brainer:
The SIGMA 11515!
Footnotes
[1]
Elli-class frigate - Wikipedia
[2]
Greek frigate Hydra - Wikipedia
[3]
Roussen-class fast attack craft - Wikipedia
[4]
SIGNAAL HELLAS S.A.
Karena FDI lagi tren, mungkin post disini gapap ya
Should Greece get the Sigma 11515 frigate or the Belhara frigate?
Should Greece get the Sigma 11515 frigate or the Belhara frigate?
Answer (1 of 7): Belharra is the most popular choice. France is one of the few, perhaps the only country among the candidates that support Greece in the conflict against Turkey and generally speaking has been lenient towards Greece during the debt crisis too. Historically, Greece and France tend ...
Should Greece get the Sigma 11515 frigate or the Belhara frigate?
Miltos Antoniades's answer: By a wide margin, the SIGMA 11515. In my opinion, the Belh@ra should not even be considered 2nd, that position belongs to the Arrowhead 140, but I will be digressing should I throw a 3rd ship in the mix. FDI or Belh@rra: The French boats have been enjoying a lot of p...
In my opinion, the Belh@ra should not even be considered 2nd, that position belongs to the Arrowhead 140, but I will be digressing should I throw a 3rd ship in the mix.
FDI or Belh@rra: The French boats have been enjoying a lot of popularity with the Greek public, mainly due to the French stance to support Greece in the latest exchange of battleship bravado with the Turkish fleet during the summer of 2020.
The SIGMA 11515: On paper weapons’ systems and capabilities look on par with the FDI. But with a little more digging and technical understanding the conclusions are very different and greatly favor the SIGMA. Furthermore, the Dutch offer an interim solution that the French cannot match. Despite Greece’s attempt to disconnect the interim from the new boats deals, for the Dutch it’s obviously a packaged deal.
To all my fellow Greek Belh@ra-Loving Criminals, please be patient and read on. Hopefully, some seeds of doubt about the much advertized French ships will be sowed in your heads after reading this article.
Let’s proceed to examine each proposal separately for the operational and geopolitical aspects.
1) Operational comparisson
1a) Anti-Air Warfare:
Aster-30 long range SAM test-firing off of a Sylver-70 VLS.
- AA Missile load: The SIGMA comes with 16-cells of MK41 Vertical Launch System (VLS). There is space for more, however, the 16 cells will do. Because each cell of the Mk41 can pack 4 AA medium range missiles such as the ESSM (50 km range) for a total capacity of 64 missles. The FDI’s French launcher (Sylver) offers 32 cells, however, they can only pack 1 missile per cell. For a total of 32, half the missile load of the SIGMA. SIGMA wins here.
- AA Missile type: THE SIGMA can pack ESSMs (medium range, already in use with the HN) or SM-2 (long range) missles (Contrary to popular belief/doubt/propaganda, the SM-2 IS RELEASED from the US to Greece). The FDI shoots the French Aster-15 (medium range) or MICA-VL and the Aster-30 (long range) missile. In all appearences the Aster-30 seems marginally better than the all but the latest SM-2 variants. This is IMO a very marginal -if at all- benefit, but for argument’s sake let’s give this point to the FDI.
- AA Defence: The Belharras in French service will rely solely on their AA missiles for AA defence because, well, that’s how they do things apparently. For the HN, with its expected theater under a swarmed airspace with multiple threat types, this is of course a no-no. Despite the clear requirements for CIWS from the HN, the French have been very reluctant to add a RAM or two in their proposal. There is a very good reason for this as we will see in the next paragraph (CMS), but for now let’s keep that the FDI has no RAM or other CIWS, and no STRALES AA kit for the main gun. This is more important than I could possibly stress. Scratch two options off the captain’s short list of options when multiple ASMs are speeding towards his ship. Anyway, SIGMA packs all the goodies, so it wins hands down here.
- Radar/Combat Management System: I am including radar and CMS in one point because the two are really inseperable. You cannot benefit from the best Radar in the world if your CMS is lacking, and vice versa. The FDI proposal comes with the undoubtedly very capable SeaFire Radar. But the CMS is a French buit system called SETIS. Which is a closed architecture system designed to work only with French systems and weapons. Hence, integrating things like ESSM, STRALES, VL-ASROC etc. is a problem. SIGMA on the other hand comes with TACTICOS. An open architecture CMS already integrated with anything the HN can ask to arm its Frigates with. A very popular and easily upgradeable/configurable CMS already in operation with the HNs existing frigates and Roussen Class FACs (Super Vita). The radar of the SIGMA in the improved proposal by Damen (May 21) is the NS400 - a radar just as capable if not more capable than the SeaFire the French are offering. So clearly, the NS400/TACTICOS combo of the SIGMA wins over the SeaFire/SETIS combo of the FDI.
- Electronic Warfare: The FDI, believe it or not, comes without a built-in ECM system. Neither is an ECM system priced into the already overpriced French proposal. For that alone, the SIGMA with its full suite of R-ECM and ESM systems is the clear winner here as well.
SIGMA: 4 // FDI: 1.
Now let’s have a look at how both ships will perform in
1b) AntiSubmarine Warfare (ASW)
MH-60R helo dipping its sonar
Although on paper both boats come with a modern hull sonar, the supremacy of the SIGMA in ASW is even more clear than in AAW, for a number of reasons:
- Helicopter: The main ASW means of a warship is its helo. The HN has already ordered 4+3 state-of-the-art ASW helos (MH-60R) for its fleet. They will be hosted by either SIGMA or FDI frigates in the future. However, because of the French CMS not being able to integrate with the MH-60R (if you weren’t paying attention before go back to Radar/CMS), the helos will be hunting Turkish subs on their own. No info from and to the ship’s CMS. Big disadvantage compared to the TACTICOS CMS of the SIGMAs. One point for the Dutch ships.
- Torpedo tubes: Amazingly, the French tubes (3x2) cannot be reloaded at sea...(!?). Should an FDI expend its 6 torpedoes it needs to return to base to reload. Is this important? Of course it is, when you consider a warship might spend a month or two defending Kastellorizo or Cyprus. One more point for the Dutch who face no such problems.
- Propulsion: The French drive the FDIs only through Diesel. The SIGMAs can also run on electric (CODLOG - Combined Diesel-Electric Οr Gas). Which is silent. Why is this important for ASW? Because the hunt for Red October is a very silent matter. Especially in light of Turkish Type 214 silent subs just around the corner. Yet another point for the Dutch here.
- VL-ASROC: What is this? It’s basically a missile that launches a torpedo many miles away where the sub is detected (by the presumably integrated MH-60R with the ship’s CMS). The torpedo drops into the water close to the sub and kills it further, faster, surer. The SIGMA includes the VL-ASROC. The FDI doesn’t (You guessed it. The SETIS integration issues again…).
ASW Subtotal
SIGMA: 4 // FDI: 0.
1c) Surface Warfare
The reality of naval warfare today: Network centric operations.
Because no single radar can beat the curvature of the Earth, tracking low flying targets below the horizon (~20km) can be achieved by linking the CMS of multiple assets that will exchange information with each other. In this way, a HN Super Vita Roussen Class missile boat can track a rogue Harpoon ASM flying past it and relay the information to the Frigate that is 100km away. Then the Frigate can launch an Aster-30 or SM-2 to destroy the threat well before it will appear on its own radar. At the same time the frigate will launch a salvo of its own Exocets or NSMs against the enemy warship where the rogue Harpoon came from.
Sounds simple, yes?
Well, no, not so much.
For this to happen both ships (or helicopters, UAVs, AWACS, whatever asset carries a radar) will need more than just the secure connection (Data Link 16/22). They need their Combat Management Systems (that will ultimately fire a weapon) to speak the same language.
And herein lies another great disadvantage -perhaps the greatest- of the FDI proposal to Greece. Its SETIS CMS is not only incompatible with the rest of the HN’s systems. But also, the rival SIGMA frigate is offered with TACTICOS, the same CMS currently found in all of the HN’s major surface units - of the ELLI
[1]
, HYDRA
[2]
and ROUSSEN
[3]
classes! Moreover, Signaal Greece has integrated TACTICOS with the HAF coastal radars and the CMS of the P-3B Orion aircraft
[4]
. And last but not least, HAF’s AWACS (Erieye) provide HNs Tacticos equipped units with radar data.
Essentially this means that the new frigates that will come with TACTICOS, on top of all this system’s virtues, will enjoy network centric warfare capabilities out-of-the-box. This is a game changer for naval warfare and a prerequisite for the present and future. As such, in my opinion at least, any proposal without TACTICOS integration should have been deemed unacceptable for Greece right off the bat.
Other than that, ASMs carried by both the SIGMA and FDI are quite capable. The original Dutch offer included Harpoon or NSM ASMs, vs. the Exocet Blk III of the FDIs. No point in comparing those options, however, as TACTICOS is already integrated with the Exocet, so if the HN decides to go with that missile they may very well put it on the SIGMA frigates.
So final tally here
Surface Warfare Subtotal
SIGMA: 1 // FDI: 0.
Now let’s sum it all up to see operationally what is the final score.
Total Operational Score
SIGMA: 9 // FDI: 1.
Note that in order to keep this as competitive as possible, I have not even included other factors such as the ease of adoption for the HN which has been operating numerous Dutch frigates for years. Nor the packaged deal with the M-Class Karel Doorman frigates that the Dutch are throwing in the mix for close to nothing, should we choose the SIGMA.
In any case, political reasons did allow for such a poor fit operationally to make it into the short list. Now let’s discuss those reasons.
2) Geopolitical Evaluation
Right, so this is where the French proposal is the strongest. Or is it?
Indeed France has proven a valuable ally for Greece in the past and more recently during the latest Greco-Turkish crisis. They were the only vocal European Union member to speak out against, what to Greece seems Erdogan’s agressive, revisionist and expansionist stance.
How so? is my first question.
Well, out of love for Greece isn’t a reliable answer when it comes to international politics, despite the fact that the two peoples share no emnity. In truth, France had been on a collision trajectory with Turkey for quite some time. You see, Erdogan’s expansion into N. Africa, the Levant and the Red Sea, has bumped onto existing French presence and interests there. So France was naturally very eager to grab the opportunity to jump at Erdogan when he was escalating the crisis with Greece. Macron did it without having any solid rewards at that point. He did it because it served France’s wider agenda. The contract for the Rafales came later, as an added bonus.
Speaking of Rafales, the contract for 18 units is an important reward in itself. But it also means that there will be significantly more revenue streams in the future with HAF needing at least 2 squadrons for a miminum viable fleet. Also, revenue streams for training, support, upgrades etc. are more than enough to establish a “strategic” alliance/cooperation between the countries.
Therefore, Greece can already claim an ally in France, and with hard cash to back it up (Rafale). No sale of Frigates is going to change that, or add anything to it.
In conclusion
In my opinion, the decision for the frigates should be swayed by the geopolitical factor to whatever degree, only as long as the operational factor is satisfied. The geopolitical factor is a necessary but NOT sufficient condition. The boats have to do the job the HN wants them for. As demonstrated, the SIGMA is by far the better fit for the Hellenic Navy. In fact, the flaws of the FDI are so fundamental that despite their many virtues they are unfortunately unfit for the HN. Given that the Dutch are not vetoed out for political reasons, this should make the choice between the two a no-brainer:
The SIGMA 11515!
Footnotes
[1]
Elli-class frigate - Wikipedia
[2]
Greek frigate Hydra - Wikipedia
[3]
Roussen-class fast attack craft - Wikipedia
[4]
SIGNAAL HELLAS S.A.
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Credit : LembagaKeris
KERIS reborn
First Steel Cutting Ceremony Kapal Frigate Merah Putih Kedua di PT PAL
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TNI AL beberkan rencana kegiatan MNEK Ke-5 di Bali Februari 2025
TNI Angkatan Laut membeberkan rencana kegiatan Latihan Bersama (Latma) Multilateral Naval Exercise Komodo (MNEK) Ke-5 di Bali pada Februari 2025 yang bakal ...
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Intelligent Surveillance Reconnaisance (ISR) Mobile For Marines
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Longer than SBR?
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Isn't that just too long?
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BREAKING NEWS - KOMISI I DPR RI RAKER DENGAN MENHAN RI, MENKEU RI, DAN PANGLIMA TNI
Komisi I DPR RI Rapat Kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan RI, Menteri Keuangan RI, dan Panglima TNIMembahas Surat Menteri Pertahanan:1. Nomor: B/2045/M/X/ 2023 ...
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Warga Formil already knew this for years, good thing they're go public now.View attachment 68511Log into Facebook
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BREAKING NEWS - KOMISI I DPR RI RAKER DENGAN MENHAN RI, MENKEU RI, DAN PANGLIMA TNI
Komisi I DPR RI Rapat Kerja dengan Menteri Pertahanan RI, Menteri Keuangan RI, dan Panglima TNIMembahas Surat Menteri Pertahanan:1. Nomor: B/2045/M/X/ 2023 ...
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RI Dapat Hibah Kapal dari Korsel, Butuh Rp 569 M buat Perbaikan
Kemhan RI mendapatkan hibah dari Korea Selatan (Korsel) berupa 1 unit kapal bekas Patrol Combat Corvette (PCC) Bucheon 773 untuk TNI Angkatan Laut (AL).
1. We will get the Pohang class Bucheon 773, so Pohang class batch IV
2. The funding will be from Ministry of Defense strategic plan (Renstra) budget for 2025-2029 with $35 million.
3. also i quote from Deputy Minister of Defense Herindra "Kemarin agak lama prosesnya sehingga anggaran US$ 105 juta sekarang sudah dialihkan untuk pemulihan kapal FREMM dari Italia".
I think what he meant is PPA.
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"Sejenis"There are some points from this news :RI Dapat Hibah Kapal dari Korsel, Butuh Rp 569 M buat Perbaikan
Kemhan RI mendapatkan hibah dari Korea Selatan (Korsel) berupa 1 unit kapal bekas Patrol Combat Corvette (PCC) Bucheon 773 untuk TNI Angkatan Laut (AL).finance.detik.com
1. We will get the Pohang class Bucheon 773, so Pohang class batch IV
2. The funding will be from Ministry of Defense strategic plan (Renstra) budget for 2025-2029 with $35 million.
3. also i quote from Deputy Minister of Defense Herindra "Kemarin agak lama prosesnya sehingga anggaran US$ 105 juta sekarang sudah dialihkan untuk pemulihan kapal FREMM dari Italia".
I think what he meant is PPA.
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