Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

Indos

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,219
Reactions
1,537
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Did you even read the article?

It's not an opinion piece where the journalist write his or her own personal view. Look at whose opinion the reporter has quoted instead.

Many of us already familiar with the name and her strange ideas and opinions regarding defense in this country as an "observer". While we can complain why did said media use her views instead of someone else's with more credibility, but that won't matter much - especially if the "hands behind the media" or investors have their own vested interests in the issue.

The title of the article is loaded, of course, and it's the 'disease' of journalism in the internet age.

Yup I read it, the source HINT that the main problem is unwillingness of Indonesian part to approach USA that later become clearer when Alman Helvast made another writing in CNBC Indonesia.
 

FPXAllen

Contributor
Indonesia Correspondent
Messages
1,126
Reactions
4 1,702
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Yup I read it, the source HINT that the main problem is unwillingness of Indonesian part to approach USA that later become clearer when Alman Helvast made another writing in CNBC Indonesia.
Then you must have realized that it's not the opinion of the journalist - other than applying loaded title which he summarized from the source's opinion.

One then only have to think, what motives behind Connie's and then Almand's perspective and what are the position of CNBC Indonesia's editors in this matter.

Oh well, enough from my viewpoint as journalist. Apologies to all, I have derailed this thread with my rants.

If anyone still want to keep complaining and dissing the journalists without even willing to stand "in their shoes" at all then sure, go ahead.
 

Indos

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
1,219
Reactions
1,537
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
In this age of digital media, reporters are pushed to provide "breaking story" , up to minute story.....which a lot of times at the expense of correct facts. The mindset it breaking news....and to update later with new facts or correction. Speed is the name of the game. This in combination that reporters from mainstream media are usually not specialists.

Hence readers need to treat the news with a grain of salt.....:(

A reporter needs to make three news within a day (at least it is what happen in Kompas), but it is Okay if the media has defense specialist journalist, not generalist ones. Journalist of course has specific desk, but for defense it is very rare (mainstream media).
 

JATOSINT 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
2,254
Reactions
4 3,224
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Then what's stopping you guys - or anyone else who complains about the unprofessional and inaccurate media in this case for that matter - to become media writers specializing in defense and military news reporting instead?

Sorry, I took a bit of offense since it just seems to me that people are easy to complain while unwilling to at least try to make better changes by themselves. Much like spectators in football matches who will curse their favorite team's striker if he failed to score. If they can do better than the player they cursed, then why don't they be the ones in the field instead?
So we cannot criticize Menhan, TNI, President, etc decision unless we become Menhan, TNI, and become president ourselves? Then what is the point of having democracy and free speech if someone can only be criticized by those who can replace his/her duties?

Sorry, you cannot use this kind of logic

And for Media, blamed it on the editor/asred/pimred, they're the one that responsible for all the news that came out from the outlet, not the field reporter itself
 

NEKO

Experienced member
Indonesia Correspondent
Messages
3,191
Reactions
4 2,819
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Then you must have realized that it's not the opinion of the journalist - other than applying loaded title which he summarized from the source's opinion.

One then only have to think, what motives behind Connie's and then Almand's perspective and what are the position of CNBC Indonesia's editors in this matter.

Oh well, enough from my viewpoint as journalist. Apologies to all, I have derailed this thread with my rants.

If anyone still want to keep complaining and dissing the journalists without even willing to stand "in their shoes" at all then sure, go ahead.
I understand how you feels but we only complain news that's is not good(accuracy, facts, etc) if the news is good then no problem, or is it forbidden to complain?
Is like you are saying that don't complain and become journalist instead regardless of your background and skills, is like when peoples complaint about how WHO handling the covid19, then don't complain and become WHO director instead.

Even the military telling the media to be more careful when making news.

Guess I'll just be quiet regarding the media and complain no more.
 

FPXAllen

Contributor
Indonesia Correspondent
Messages
1,126
Reactions
4 1,702
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
So we cannot criticize Menhan, TNI, President, etc decision unless we become Menhan, TNI, and become president ourselves? Then what is the point of having democracy and free speech if someone can only be criticized by those who can replace his/her duties?

Sorry, you cannot use this kind of logic

And for Media, blamed it on the editor/asred/pimred, they're the one that responsible for all the news that came out from the outlet, not the field reporter itself
*Sigh*

I know I've apologized for derailing the thread, but then again...

It's not about criticizing that gets me. Nor that what you wrote by becoming menhan etc - you assumed too much.

In case you missed my real point, it was this:

But since there are only a few Indonesian journalists who have specific interests and adequate knowledge in defense and military stuffs, we (those few journalists) surely will welcome others who are willing to get their feet wet and join our ranks.
 

JATOSINT 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
2,254
Reactions
4 3,224
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
*Sigh*

I know I've apologized for derailing the thread, but then again...

It's not about criticizing that gets me. Nor that what you wrote by becoming menhan etc - you assumed too much.

In case you missed my real point, it was this:
Well, you're the one that used the 'spectators in football matches' scenario


Ok, back to the topic
 

FPXAllen

Contributor
Indonesia Correspondent
Messages
1,126
Reactions
4 1,702
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
I understand how you feels but we only complain news that's is not good(accuracy, facts, etc) if the news is good then no problem, or is it forbidden to complain?
No not at all. The reason is valid, criticism are always needed as a form of check and balance. But don't you think it will be more effective if such criticism and complains are directly posted to the media themselves rather than only in the forums like this?

Besides, there is a long established mechanism where you can put your harsh criticisim to the media by, yes, writing a counter response article. And you don't need to be a journalist by profession to do it.

All in all, if you can take a different look from what I've originally written at first, you can think of it as a kind of plea for help. Once again, defence writers and journalists in Indonesia are only a few and far between. Surely still not enough to make enough difference in the mainstream media.

Even the military telling the media to be more careful when making news.
Yes, and it's actually a firm warning if those media realized. But then again...
 

trishna_amrta

Experienced member
Messages
1,606
Reactions
1,925
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
There might be a few other factors I am missing, but just to give ballpark of where the 3 day number comes from...and also why it shouldn't be applied so prematurely.
You should get rid the volume of the forward compartment particularly torpedo room while accommodation compartment should be assumed to be half flooded

Based from what we heard from the official statement, 402 went down roughly at the same time she was loading her tube


Indonesian member approb.

Though I dont know about oxygen circulation that he is talking about, does nanggala have oxygen generator? Is there any device onboard to create oxygen through electrolysis?
Without power, oxygen is generated by burning the candles, and scrubbing the CO2 is done by spreading lithium hydroxide around the boat. I just hope 402 bring enough quantity of those two critical supply.

If you run electrolysis directly upon seawater then you would end up killing everybody onboard. Because direct electrolysis upon seawater will also release chlorine
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,535
Solutions
2
Reactions
119 25,122
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I just did a calculation of my own (using dimensions of boat and some biophysics), and understand where they are coming from w.r.t 3 days and 72 hours.

Numbers/assumptions I used and the results:

Pressure hull (using diameter of 6m and an approx 50+m length of cylinder and minimum packing factor)

Volume = 1500 m^3 (somewhere between 1400 and 1600, but this is small +/- sensitivity in the end)

CO2 starting concentration = 400 ppm

CO2 Toxic range assumed around 40,000+ ppm *

CO2 density = 2 kg/m^3

Air density = 1.2 kg/m^3

Total air = 1800 kg

Humans convert/displace O2 and exhale about 1kg/day of CO2 (but could be less**)

In the end it boils down to time it takes for 60 m^3 CO2 (4% i.e 40,000 ppm) or about 120 kg to occur.

120 kg of CO2 at 1kg/day times 53 crew comes to around 3 days (the starting air volume could indeed be larger like 1700 m^3 etc and there can be give with some of the other numbers like CO2 exhale per day).

However * and ** can buy some more time, in fact a lot more time given it is observed (in couple MSDS and OSHA I looked up), many healthy adult humans can tolerate/survive up to 80,000 ppm CO2 or even a bit more than that.....and by breathing exercise/training, the metabolism can be slowed sufficiently for producing as little CO2 (even compared to regular sedentary) quite drastically.

The 80,000 ppm tolerance by itself buys twice the time for example. I am unsure how low CO2 production can be reduced with training (it would buy further time as well), maybe someone can find out.

Thus it is not surprising @anmdt referred to latter already a number of times.

There might be a few other factors I am missing, but just to give ballpark of where the 3 day number comes from...and also why it shouldn't be applied so prematurely.

These two (*/**) factors will be crucial in the end if the submarine is intact.

Let us continue to hope and pray for the best.
As given by NATO ATP-MTP 57 Submarine SAR Manual:
The ability to survive and remain onboard will depend on the accuracy and the reliability of the atmosphere monitoring equipment. To prolong the stay time in the submarine, the oxygen level can be allowed to drop to 17 kPa, (17% at 101.3 kPa / 1 bar) and maintained at that level and the CO2 allowed to rise to 2,5 kPa, (2.5% at 101.3 kPa / 1 bar)
Also from your calculations we can deduct the volume by some fraction because; 1st vessels submerged displacement is 1390, surfaced is 1290 tonnes. 100 tonnes is for the ballast thus not accounted for the air volume.
Also accounting for:
-Battery compartments, sealed.​
-Fuel, water, septic tanks etc.*​
-A permeability coefficient(defining how much of a volume is made of air) can be estimated to be %75 (might be lower.​
We can assume 700-800 m3 of fresh air was/is available.

*Should be further noted not all tanks are within pressure hull, but some portion of those occupies pressure hull which is somewhere between 1/5 to 1/6.
 

NEKO

Experienced member
Indonesia Correspondent
Messages
3,191
Reactions
4 2,819
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
You should get rid the volume of the forward compartment particularly torpedo room while accommodation compartment should be assumed to be half flooded

Based from what we heard from the official statement, 402 went down roughly at the same time she was loading her tube



Without power, oxygen is generated by burning the candles, and scrubbing the CO2 is done by spreading lithium hydroxide around the boat. I just hope 402 bring enough quantity of those two critical supply.

If you run electrolysis directly upon seawater then you would end up killing everybody onboard. Because direct electrolysis upon seawater will also release chlorine
As given by NATO ATP-MTP 57 Submarine SAR Manual:

Also from your calculations we can deduct the volume by some fraction because; 1st vessels submerged displacement is 1390, surfaced is 1290 tonnes. 100 tonnes is for the ballast thus not accounted for the air volume.
Also accounting for:
-Battery compartments, sealed.​
-Fuel, water, septic tanks etc.*​
-A permeability coefficient(defining how much of a volume is made of air) can be estimated to be %75 (might be lower.​
We can assume 700-800 m3 of fresh air was/is available.

*Should be further noted not all tanks are within pressure hull, but some portion of those occupies pressure hull which is somewhere between 1/5 to 1/6.
Potassium superoxide can remove CO2 and generate O2, its usually used in submarine.

If its a nuclear submarine not only its big and carry many equipment but the reactor can provide huge electricity and can be used to produce fresh water and also create O2, does 402 have pressurized O2 tank?

Does the rough volume already - (equipment Vol + crews vol), @Nilgiri , its too long and I just skip your post and also because its a math.
 
Last edited:

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,535
Solutions
2
Reactions
119 25,122
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
1619253237965.png

KRI Rigel's route,
It is incomplete but gives an idea about the place it is scanning and SAR sectors.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom