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Ravager

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Krissbow is rebranded Chinese product ye
All i know at the end 1999 there is no chinese krissbow brand at the time and the owner were chinese descent indonesian . At first they were using rebranded import strategy while finding some niches that would be easier and cheaper doing it locally . There is no nationalisme in these tho' ... They purely only after the profits .
 

Panca

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It turns out that RCWS Komodo also has a Gunshot Detection System. minutes: 13:00
 

R4duga

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It turns out that RCWS Komodo also has a Gunshot Detection System. minutes: 13:00
yup EOS R400 does have integrated shot detection system , i think i prefer this rather than a combination between Reutech Rogue RWS + Metravib Pilar V (gunshot acoustic detection) in PT.SSE P6 ATAV and P2 KM , better yet , EOS R400 platform is able to carry javelin ATGM which already present in our inventory now .
 

Madokafc

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Meanwhile Xenia, Avanza, Xpander, Sigra, Ayla and the likes got the stigma as imported car although almost 💯 percentage of their production being done in Indonesia, including the smallest bolts, till their largest part including machine block and chase!!
Added rant bonus .. gosh , i can't understand with our mercusuar mentality ?? While i do agree all of those were within the realm of our technical capabilities but can't those upper brass realize on how hollow our manufacturing foundation are ?? 76th year of freedom yet we still don't have our own brand of portable fiber welding machinery . And don't even bother talks about the CNC's one ... Even the Basic stick one still we don't have it !! ...
What ?? Krissbow ?? FFS .... They only assembling the separate imported component and put their brand on it . Yet , the govs are brazzenly talk about industry 4.0....

😪
 

Aghost132483

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Meanwhile Xenia, Avanza, Xpander, Sigra, Ayla and the likes got the stigma as imported car although almost 💯 percentage of their production being done in Indonesia, including the smallest bolts, till their largest part including machine block and chase!!
That is Japan manufacturer strategy dude, and government had been realize about that, that's why we are now developing electric battery and car with China and Korea, we want to get out from Japan strategy trap in the automotive industry.


 

trishna_amrta

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That is Japan manufacturer strategy dude, and government had been realize about that, that's why we are now developing electric battery and car with China and Korea, we want to get out from Japan strategy trap in the automotive industry.


You're basing your conclusion based upon unsubstantiated ground there. Personally I don't see any "Japan strategy trap" or whatever. For some reason that I still can't fathom myself, Japan auto manufacture do not have any mainline electric vehicle (otherwise I'm already driving one by now). And considering that Tesla battery is basically Panasonic on the inside and Sony was literally the one who first introduce Li-ion battery into the mass market it was not due to their lack of ability to develop one either. For at least a decade Toyota has been pushing for hydrogen based economy which doesn't get any track either. Its seem they either need to recoup their investment in internal combustion engine or they are afraid of being cut off from raw materials needed to produce Li-ion battery (hard lesson from WW2). And in this case I'm heavily leaning toward the latter.
 

Gundala

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That is Japan manufacturer strategy dude, and government had been realize about that, that's why we are now developing electric battery and car with China and Korea, we want to get out from Japan strategy trap in the automotive industry.


I have to disagree. There are two main reasons of which the automotive industry isnt been developing as we want and its related to automotive industry economic scale also it ecosystem.
  1. Car ownership to population ratio in Indonesia is lower compare to other ASEAN country. Indonesia: 87 car for 1.000 people, Thailand: 220 car for 1.000 people, Malaysia: 450 car for 1.000 people
  2. Road infrastructure (total panjang jalan biasa + tol) is low compare to other ASEAN country as well
The other part is offcourse buying power. Thats why the govt affordable LCGC program started years back to help push the scale further up, but it wont help much if we dont build road.

One of the reason I got so mad when people say "kita gak makan jalan tol, jalan tol cuman buat orang kaya, etc". How stupid those comments are where in reality in create job from the road project, helping faster ground distribution line, effecting automotive industry, tourism, etc.

As far as electric vehicle program goes I do agree and appreciate this program. EV is the future, it would be beneficial for us to start early. But I dont think we should be worry much about the combustion car ecosystem, Indonesia automotive ecosystem can survive since most of our local product can still be used in EV. Kalo kata wong jowo yg selalu untung " untung belum punya industry mesin, jadi transisi ke EV ga harus ngorbanin banyak industri lokal" :LOL:
 

Var Dracon

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What people like to argue is "Hey look at (insert Japanese or any foreign car/product that is produced in Indonesia here) they are almost 100% built in Indonesia by Indonesians in parts largest to smallest, it means we became more developed!"
While it is true that the manufacture of foreign car in Indonesia contributed to technological advances, it has little impact on technology mastery. It is the same reason why B. J. Habibie does not want CASA to open branch in Indonesia, instead he put his trust in IPTN which is (during the development of CN-235 with Spain) is like earth and sky compared to CASA.

Then someone would argue "Those foreign brands located/having a branch in Indonesia could produce the latest technology locally in Indonesia, it means we are not left behind in technology" - It is not as simple as that, even if that technology is being produced in Indonesia the intelectual property, the blueprint, any research document are still in the hands of foreign company not in our indigenous engineer. This means no innovations could be developed, and the technology level of Indonesia will always behind the foreign company's nation of origin. What worse is that if the foreign company's nation of origin put constraint on us - e.g ban on certain parts, material, or embargo.

Then someone would argue "It is not likely Japan (or insert any country in that matter) would embargo us in the field that is not military" - Well you wanna make a bet huh?

Someone would argue "Then what Esemka did was the right thing" - Bruhhh, Esemka did not licensed the parts, they just rebadge ("tempel stiker") the thing. Esemka is very different from Texmaco which could make it's own lathe, CNC machine, pouring machine, drilling machine, even licensed foreign engine (I like to believe Pindad vs Texmaco back in 2003 is like "earth and sky", with Pindad being the earth). What more worrying is that Esemka is still severely undermanned, and 90% of it's employee is not engineer (or have any technology-related diploma/degree in that matter), it means indigenous innovation would be hard to achieve.

Then someone would argue "Texmaco can still be constrained by the engine's country of origin" - It's true, but they licensed it and the technological-know-how can be absorbed by our engineer.

Someone would argue again "Texmaco can absorb the technology of the licensed engine, it means the (insert foreign automaker name) can do the same" - Of course they can do, but in the future, would the indigenous engineer worked there make a new technology, or just "wait" their master to produce X part/car? Would the engineer "melepaskan diri" (broke off) from that foreign company's grasp and make a new technology in behalf of Indonesia that would benefit the independence/mastery of technology of Indonesia?

This is already happened in history. Circa 1550-1650 the Sultanate of Aceh could make good weapons from superheavy siege cannons to hand held firearms, and their fleet is larger (in ship's size and quantity) compared to neighboring kingdom even to Portugal's fleet. Their production is affected by hundreds (even thousand) Turkish engineer/gunfounder and shipbuilder present in Aceh (they have local craftsmen as well but the top brass is still Turkish). But after Malacca fell to the Dutch in 1641, Aceh has no real enemy (as the Portuguese is no more) and thus Ottoman did not sent further manpower and technicians. In 1810s the Acehnese could no longer make large cannon, muskets, and fighting ships; For gunpowder weapon they became reliant on their neighbor, the Minangkabau people. Unlike the Acehnese, Minangkabau people learned on their own how to make gun and other weapons, they does not depend on foreign power, and it resulted in mastery of technology, thus the weapon could be made independently regardless the presence of foreign craftsmen.


These does not mean I support or reject "Japan's strategy" theory, I'm just pointing out how mastery of technology by local company (that is not an extension/subsidiary of foreign company) is important.
 

schuimpjes

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What people like to argue is "Hey look at (insert Japanese or any foreign car/product that is produced in Indonesia here) they are almost 100% built in Indonesia by Indonesians in parts largest to smallest, it means we became more developed!"
While it is true that the manufacture of foreign car in Indonesia contributed to technological advances, it has little impact on technology mastery. It is the same reason why B. J. Habibie does not want CASA to open branch in Indonesia, instead he put his trust in IPTN which is (during the development of CN-235 with Spain) is like earth and sky compared to CASA.

Then someone would argue "Those foreign brands located/having a branch in Indonesia could produce the latest technology locally in Indonesia, it means we are not left behind in technology" - It is not as simple as that, even if that technology is being produced in Indonesia the intelectual property, the blueprint, any research document are still in the hands of foreign company not in our indigenous engineer. This means no innovations could be developed, and the technology level of Indonesia will always behind the foreign company's nation of origin. What worse is that if the foreign company's nation of origin put constraint on us - e.g ban on certain parts, material, or embargo.

Then someone would argue "It is not likely Japan (or insert any country in that matter) would embargo us in the field that is not military" - Well you wanna make a bet huh?

Someone would argue "Then what Esemka did was the right thing" - Bruhhh, Esemka did not licensed the parts, they just rebadge ("tempel stiker") the thing. Esemka is very different from Texmaco which could make it's own lathe, CNC machine, pouring machine, drilling machine, even licensed foreign engine (I like to believe Pindad vs Texmaco back in 2003 is like "earth and sky", with Pindad being the earth). What more worrying is that Esemka is still severely undermanned, and 90% of it's employee is not engineer (or have any technology-related diploma/degree in that matter), it means indigenous innovation would be hard to achieve.

Then someone would argue "Texmaco can still be constrained by the engine's country of origin" - It's true, but they licensed it and the technological-know-how can be absorbed by our engineer.

Someone would argue again "Texmaco can absorb the technology of the licensed engine, it means the (insert foreign automaker name) can do the same" - Of course they can do, but in the future, would the indigenous engineer worked there make a new technology, or just "wait" their master to produce X part/car? Would the engineer "melepaskan diri" (broke off) from that foreign company's grasp and make a new technology in behalf of Indonesia that would benefit the independence/mastery of technology of Indonesia?

This is already happened in history. Circa 1550-1650 the Sultanate of Aceh could make good weapons from superheavy siege cannons to hand held firearms, and their fleet is larger (in ship's size and quantity) compared to neighboring kingdom even to Portugal's fleet. Their production is affected by hundreds (even thousand) Turkish engineer/gunfounder and shipbuilder present in Aceh (they have local craftsmen as well but the top brass is still Turkish). But after Malacca fell to the Dutch in 1641, Aceh has no real enemy (as the Portuguese is no more) and thus Ottoman did not sent further manpower and technicians. In 1810s the Acehnese could no longer make large cannon, muskets, and fighting ships; For gunpowder weapon they became reliant on their neighbor, the Minangkabau people. Unlike the Acehnese, Minangkabau people learned on their own how to make gun and other weapons, they does not depend on foreign power, and it resulted in mastery of technology, thus the weapon could be made independently regardless the presence of foreign craftsmen.


These does not mean I support or reject "Japan's strategy" theory, I'm just pointing out how mastery of technology by local company (that is not an extension/subsidiary of foreign company) is important.
What we chasing is simple, GDP. Who cares who make the investments?, at least that create jobs, that's good. We need a lot of investments also, our population is goddamn huge.

But unfortunately, not much of Indonesian are "to business". My opinion, that also causing we only have few Indonesian owned brands. Many of us have " proletariat (working class)" mentality than "bourgeoisie (owners/pemilik modal)" mentality. "Aku pingin kerja di a, b, c, d, e" rather than "aku pingin buat pabrik satelit, roket, senjata, dll". Don't blame the FDIs, even we need FDIs.

And don't to much rely on SOEs. "Only/prefer more to SOEs" mentality lead to "less competition" that create "less innovation".

My own motto is from capitalistic Mangkunegara 4, " Wiryo, Artha, Winasis". Hope that will make us more to "chasing money" and making our own brands even wkwk.
 

Stuka Dive

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What people like to argue is "Hey look at (insert Japanese or any foreign car/product that is produced in Indonesia here) they are almost 100% built in Indonesia by Indonesians in parts largest to smallest, it means we became more developed!"
While it is true that the manufacture of foreign car in Indonesia contributed to technological advances, it has little impact on technology mastery. It is the same reason why B. J. Habibie does not want CASA to open branch in Indonesia, instead he put his trust in IPTN which is (during the development of CN-235 with Spain) is like earth and sky compared to CASA.

Then someone would argue "Those foreign brands located/having a branch in Indonesia could produce the latest technology locally in Indonesia, it means we are not left behind in technology" - It is not as simple as that, even if that technology is being produced in Indonesia the intelectual property, the blueprint, any research document are still in the hands of foreign company not in our indigenous engineer. This means no innovations could be developed, and the technology level of Indonesia will always behind the foreign company's nation of origin. What worse is that if the foreign company's nation of origin put constraint on us - e.g ban on certain parts, material, or embargo.

Then someone would argue "It is not likely Japan (or insert any country in that matter) would embargo us in the field that is not military" - Well you wanna make a bet huh?

Someone would argue "Then what Esemka did was the right thing" - Bruhhh, Esemka did not licensed the parts, they just rebadge ("tempel stiker") the thing. Esemka is very different from Texmaco which could make it's own lathe, CNC machine, pouring machine, drilling machine, even licensed foreign engine (I like to believe Pindad vs Texmaco back in 2003 is like "earth and sky", with Pindad being the earth). What more worrying is that Esemka is still severely undermanned, and 90% of it's employee is not engineer (or have any technology-related diploma/degree in that matter), it means indigenous innovation would be hard to achieve.

Then someone would argue "Texmaco can still be constrained by the engine's country of origin" - It's true, but they licensed it and the technological-know-how can be absorbed by our engineer.

Someone would argue again "Texmaco can absorb the technology of the licensed engine, it means the (insert foreign automaker name) can do the same" - Of course they can do, but in the future, would the indigenous engineer worked there make a new technology, or just "wait" their master to produce X part/car? Would the engineer "melepaskan diri" (broke off) from that foreign company's grasp and make a new technology in behalf of Indonesia that would benefit the independence/mastery of technology of Indonesia?

This is already happened in history. Circa 1550-1650 the Sultanate of Aceh could make good weapons from superheavy siege cannons to hand held firearms, and their fleet is larger (in ship's size and quantity) compared to neighboring kingdom even to Portugal's fleet. Their production is affected by hundreds (even thousand) Turkish engineer/gunfounder and shipbuilder present in Aceh (they have local craftsmen as well but the top brass is still Turkish). But after Malacca fell to the Dutch in 1641, Aceh has no real enemy (as the Portuguese is no more) and thus Ottoman did not sent further manpower and technicians. In 1810s the Acehnese could no longer make large cannon, muskets, and fighting ships; For gunpowder weapon they became reliant on their neighbor, the Minangkabau people. Unlike the Acehnese, Minangkabau people learned on their own how to make gun and other weapons, they does not depend on foreign power, and it resulted in mastery of technology, thus the weapon could be made independently regardless the presence of foreign craftsmen.


These does not mean I support or reject "Japan's strategy" theory, I'm just pointing out how mastery of technology by local company (that is not an extension/subsidiary of foreign company) is important.
Check this out...in bahasa

 

trishna_amrta

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But unfortunately, not much of Indonesian are "to business". My opinion, that also causing we only have few Indonesian owned brands. Many of us have " proletariat (working class)" mentality than "bourgeoisie (owners/pemilik modal)" mentality. "Aku pingin kerja di a, b, c, d, e" rather than "aku pingin buat pabrik satelit, roket, senjata, dll". Don't blame the FDIs, even we need FDIs.
There are several fundamental problems that I could reliably identify as the root cause of that.
  • Education system. Post Reformasi 🇮🇩 education discourage critical thinking. And worse its leaning more and more toward certain religion based rather than STEM based. Even back in the OrBa period we were encouraged to think critically but always warned by our teacher that such critical thinking (critique toward Soeharto regime) shouldn't leave the classroom.
  • IIRC I've written something in this very thread (several pages back) about how nobody want to use my indigenous solution which cost a fraction of the competing solution (typically Made in USA). And by fraction of the cost I'm referring to less than Rp2jt vs US$2000, but hey no 🇮🇩 firms (particularly big one) let alone gov't want to use solution from brown skin local guy vs a white guy that look damn fine with his sunglasses.
 

Gundala

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But unfortunately, not much of Indonesian are "to business". My opinion, that also causing we only have few Indonesian owned brands. Many of us have " proletariat (working class)" mentality than "bourgeoisie (owners/pemilik modal)" mentality. "Aku pingin kerja di a, b, c, d, e" rather than "aku pingin buat pabrik satelit, roket, senjata, dll". Don't blame the FDIs, even we need FDIs.
well "backthen" most of "melayu" have so many options to choose from regarding how they going to make a living. Not so much for our brothers from different etchnic background and perhaps thats what make them good at it by developing early enterprenuership from parents, good business network, etc.

Then there is this oknum birokrasi which and overlaping regulation which make it even harder to start. My cynical point of view is; business models that doesnt interact too much with birokrasi would likely to excel more. Things like kedai kopi, warung makan, bengkel, etc, can earn you a decent living even in Jakarta overprice city. Gojek was a start up that prolly can reflect my cynical theory :LOL:

Anyway, I too have my own business started from warung makan then moving up to restaurant then having couple branches. By the time we reach restaurant level and started to pay city taxes then we got a bit of silly problem with city taxes oknum. I was thrilled when Jokowi/Ahok took the seat and decided to start the tax sales online system early! This time no more oknum can mess with it as all the sales were recorded by the system and send online. And let me tell you all that Im not the only who has the same problem. Now imagine this "problem" happen in others branch of birokrasi in many different sector. When I hear the govt saying "we should push our people to open up business"! I just laugh at it 😁

Tho many has been changed for the good of it. Indonesian strategic Industry is doing better, tho I dont know why each time I hear about our strategic industry my cynical side came out and try to find the answer that came into my head,"is there any strategic industry that is not BUMN?".... Im having hard time even naming a few :unsure:
 

schuimpjes

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This time no more oknum can mess with it as all the sales were recorded by the system and send online. And let me tell you all that Im not the only who has the same problem. Now imagine this "problem" happen in others branch of birokrasi in many different sector.
Well said. Our government really have to make anything online, because the "pungli" is messing the investment, that also affecting the GDP (GDP is one of our main national interest now).
IIRC I've written something in this very thread (several pages back) about how nobody want to use my indigenous solution which cost a fraction of the competing solution (typically Made in USA). And by fraction of the cost I'm referring to less than Rp2jt vs US$2000, but hey no 🇮🇩 firms (particularly big one) let alone gov't want to use solution from brown skin local guy vs a white guy that look damn fine with his sunglasses.
Can you explain more about it? @trishna_amrta
 

GraveDigger388

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My 2 cents as a layman, apologies in advance if this isn't of academic value:

A small example; bike Tune Up/modification scene. A lot of people here still has this stigma of "insinyur udah ngedesain itu motor, kita jangan sok tau modif". Not understanding that given a good expertise, someone can redesign the whole engine block and it will give no different or even better performance than factory/stock engine, provided everything is well calculated and was done using proper tools and machinery.

Should tell you a lot about the mentality of our people.
 

Var Dracon

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Throwback from November 2018

Komodo Armament Eli Gun
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Comments from December 2019
3r.jpg

2r.jpg




TNI officials has checked it in 2019... But no news about it since
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