Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

[Ryder]

Could this really set another stage to foreign volunteers joining in.

I doubt a lot of the Muslims will sit back many will go join as foreign volunteers in the fighting while Jews will most likely fight for Israel.

Its pretty easy for a lot of Muslims regardless of ethnic origins who believe in the Ummah go and fight as volunteers.

 

[Nykyus]

Almost every country on the planet was founded through warring with and / or genociding one or more population groups that lived there. Borders have changed substantially over time and most of that has to do with war. The same thing has always want to be true. If you want your territory back, you can take it by force or ally yourself with someone who can do it for you.

That's literally the history of the world. I hate when we recognize the annexation of property as some monstrous crime, that's completely unique every time it happens. It's so common throughout history that it's harder to find example of countries that weren't formed by war than it is otherwise.

Not to mention, as I stated previously, the Palestinian population is steadily and stabily growing at a high 2.8% growth rate. They are not actually at any risk of disappearing through genocide. That's silly and ridiculous.

Your philosophy is good for a well-fed, legal Western society. Palestine and Israel are illegal, underfed, racially and socially segregated societies.
The Palestinians did not know from birth what right, good and evil are, because Evil is strongly associated with Israel, which does not adhere to any laws in the murder and desecration of the holy sites of Palestinians, which considers them two-legged cattle, as Soviet agitators agitated.

 

[Gary]

Could this really set another stage to foreign volunteers joining in.

I doubt a lot of the Muslims will sit back many will go join as foreign volunteers in the fighting while Jews will most likely fight for Israel.

Its pretty easy for a lot of Muslims regardless of ethnic origins who believe in the Ummah go and fight as volunteers.

There's a video shot on the Jordan border where Jordanians are trying to flock into Israel/West Bank before being stopped...by the Jordanian police.

You see, despite the base population hate Israel for what they are. the eagerness of the Middle Eastern monarchs to mend ties with Israel hampered effective response. Simply put, the population's anger potential could not be translated into military use because their anger is already stemmed by their own government. The biggest hurdles towards this kind of united response are already defeated before they can consolidate. Israel only needs to control the Kings of Arabia so that violence doesn't spill into their lands.

So the way I think about it is if they want your kind of scenario to be exercised they need to topple the existing order in the Middle East, because nothing helps Israel than the current status quo.

Think if Saudi Arabia suddenly found itself in a civil war , resulting in the abandonment/degrading of the country's legal institutions, in the North you have war-ridden Syria entering its second decade, Iraq with its long Sunni-Shia civil war, Yemen also in civil war, so does Sudan.

Do you really think that in this shit show not one actor/group would emerge trying to do harm against Israel? Think again, if it was not for the invasion of Iraq and the dismantling of the country's legal institutions (the Iraqi Army) by the U.S., ISIS would have not existed.

So if you want this kind of response, then a long protracted civil war in the Middle East, which slowly erodes and evetually topples a state institutional power and order is the preferred option.

 

[Relic]

Initially it looks like that Iran angle is not valid anymore, as US intelligence is saying that, there is no evidence of direct Iranian involvement and even Iranian leaders were surprised by the attack.

And I think I am gonna take their assesment.

But yeah, I can agree that foiling KSA-Israeli normalization played a role into Hamas calculations.

Becuase, such normalization would have been detrimental for Palestinian state dream.

However, this is incorrect to say that Hamas sees Palestinian people as disposable pawn. Nope. It just cost of doing business. Except on a strategic level, this business is very much an existential one for both Hamas and Palestinians.

Listen from 15:00

Window of opportunity was closing, and it was effectively closing forever.
If I was Hamas, I would have done the exact same thing. (With less civilians casualties and san rape of course)

Territorial gain is should always be prioritized over human cost. You population will reproduce themselves rapidly. But once you effectively loose a Territory it is unlikely you will get it back in 50 years or more.

This is a desperate strategic gamble on Hamas's side, but a necessity one.
If Israeli ground offensive fails to elemenate Hamas, then we can say more or less they won the gamble.

You despite having two degrees making judgments too early.

Iran was never going to be "directly" involved. The USA chose those words carefully. What they were and continue to be, is one of the key financial backers of Hamas' military wing, behind the scenes. The majority of Hamas' weapons are funneled to Hamas by Iran. The remainder of them are purchased / created by using Western aid money that we stupidly send Palestine for, only to have Hamas steal it from the population. We shouldn't be sending them one nickel of aid unless 100% of it is being used for humanitarian purposes, which it is not.

If the lives of Palestinian people are simply the cost of doing business (as you sa) then people should quit bitching and moaning in this thread about Israel bombing the hell out of Gaza, because it's what Hamas intended. A significant Israeli esponse that would cost thousands of Palestinian lives. Hamas is getting what they wanted at the cost of doing business. The death of the people they represent.

As for the idea that land is worth fighting and having people die for, I've been making that argument from the very beginning. That's why Israel fights tooth and nail to protect the land gifted to them. It's also why they do CLEARLY ILLEGAL (whatever that means today) things to continue to take more land from the Palestinians. You can make the same arguments for Israel. They're willing to trade a certain number of lives to expand their territory and influence. If that's fine for Palestine to do do, why should we see it as any less ok for Israel to do. It's just the cost of doing geopolitical business, right?

I actually think you're correct in that Hamas should be fighting for its cause. I don't have a problem with them attacking a state that they see as an oppressor. Simultaneously, however, I think Israel has every right to defend themselves and I don't believe for one second in proportionality of response. Do you know who that is for? Losers of wars. Winners do what they need to do. See Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima and D-Day and "shock and awe" in Iraq as recent examples.

 

[Relic]

Your philosophy is good for a well-fed, legal Western society. Palestine and Israel are illegal, underfed, racially and socially segregated societies.
The Palestinians did not know from birth what right, good and evil are, because Evil is strongly associated with Israel, which does not adhere to any laws in the murder and desecration of the holy sites of Palestinians, which considers them two-legged cattle, as Soviet agitators agitated.

Everybody in that region murders and kills each other historically. It's been one of the most unstable regions of the world in modern history. Tons of tribalism, and religious / ethnic fighting. Countries ruled by kings and dictators because a heavy hand is needed to stop the country from absolutely falling apart. The problems in the Middle East are unique to Israel's presence. They're simply the "Boogeyman" of the day. Some day it will be somebody else.

 

[Relic]

Could this really set another stage to foreign volunteers joining in.

I doubt a lot of the Muslims will sit back many will go join as foreign volunteers in the fighting while Jews will most likely fight for Israel.

Its pretty easy for a lot of Muslims regardless of ethnic origins who believe in the Ummah go and fight as volunteers.

I've wondered this as well. Will Muslims from the regions surrounding Palestine join in? It's hard to get into Gaza specifically, but they could open another front. Furthermore, there are some 5 million Jews in USA, and bunch more in Europe and throughout South America. We know that they'll support Israel financially from afar (that's normal practice) but will thousands of them flock to Israel to take up weapons in the war?

It will be interesting to see which side ultimately gets more meaningful foreign backing when it comes to the outcome of the war.

 

[Afif]

As for the idea that land is worth fighting and having people die for, I've been making that argument from the very beginning. That's why Israel fights tooth and nail to protect the land gifted to them. It's also why they do CLEARLY ILLEGAL (whatever that means today) things to continue to take more land from the Palestinians. You can make the same arguments for Israel. They're willing to trade a certain number of lives to expand their territory and influence. If that's fine for Palestine to do do, why should we see it as any less ok for Israel to do. It's just the cost of doing geopolitical business, right?

Well, it is less ok with Israel because their occupation is illegal according to Inernational law. And the land legally belongs to Palestine.

Again, International law is the metric here.

 

[Ryder]

Palestine and Israel deserve a 3rd party ruling both.

Turks ruled here for 400 years.

While the Arabs and Israelis turned this place into a zone of conflict for 70 years.

I hope both are happy with the result.

 

[Era_shield]

Gee, I wonder why Western coverage of this conflict is so one sided?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712785472190083137

 

[Relic]

Well, it is less ok with Israel because their occupation is illegal according to Inernational law. And the land legally belongs to Palestine.

Again, International law is the metric here.

International law has proven to be completely irrelevant when it comes to modern conflict. There are probably 50-100 countries around globe that are currently in significant breach of international law in some form or fashion. Whether it's territorial annexation, invasion, human rights, currency manipulation, environmental atrocities... Organizations such as The United Nations are useless at solving any of these. There continue to be only two ways of making a nation truly pay for crimes.

1. Through force, which means war in most cases.

2. Through crippling sanctions that threaten the stability of the country in some fashion(s).

Isreslbis annexing territory and saying "somebody come do something about it". Hamasbis stepping up and saying "we'll do something about it". Israel is responding by saying "we're not going to simply let you get way with it. In fact, we're going to respond disproportinately and try to eliminate / neuter you as a threat"... It's Hamas' turn to respond.

 

[Relic]

Gee, I wonder why Western coverage of this conflict is so one sided?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712785472190083137

Obvious reasons, are obvious. "WE" won WWII and had the power at the time to create Israel for the Jews. We maintained the economic and military power in the post-war era to back their state an help them get a regional footing. Multiple times since their creation, regional powers in the Middle East have attempted to destroy Israel and each time, to their credit, they've swatted their aggressors away like flies and inflicted shameful and embarrassing defeats on the militaries of their regional opposition.

Simply put, we in the West like to back winners. Israel has been a winner in the region since their inception as a state.

As for people getting fired for being anti-Israel. It could be worse, you could live in one of countries surrounding Israel, where they would simply kill you, dispose of your body and threaten your fanily for disagreeing with the popular narrative in the country.

 

[Kartal1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712812208759951840

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712764824306757727

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712734664069156882

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712731530383003658

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712805032419090908

 

[B_A]

Obvious reasons, are obvious. "WE" won WWII and had the power at the time to create Israel for the Jews. We maintained the economic and military power in the post-war era to back their state an help them get a regional footing. Multiple times since their creation, regional powers in the Middle East have attempted to destroy Israel and each time, to their credit, they've swatted their aggressors away like flies and inflicted shameful and embarrassing defeats on the militaries of their regional opposition.

Simply put, we in the West like to back winners. Israel has been a winner in the region since their inception as a state.

No,you also back Armenian and PKK and Ukraine but not the WW2 winner Soviet Union/Russia.

 

[Kartal1]

President Erdoğan;

Both myself, my foreign minister and the head of the MİT are continuing our intensive contacts to find a way out of the crisis, especially the release of the hostages.

However, the attitudes of some actors that add fuel to the fire rather than establishing tranquility both disrupt our efforts and deepen the crisis.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712819399978025211

 

[GoatsMilk]

I think it's pretty clear now that Hamas wasn't only created with the help of Israel but that Israel still controls them. That explains why Hamas would conduct such a strategically counter-productive attack, how Israel's spies didn't know, why they were allowed to get through all the security systems, why the venue for the dance party was changed 2 days before, and why Israel ignored warnings from Egypt that it was about to happen, which has now been confirmed by the US:

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says​

Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.

House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu described the reports as "absolutely false".
Israeli intelligence services are under scrutiny for their failure to prevent the deadliest attack by Palestinian militants in Israel's 75-year history.
"We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers about the Middle East crisis, according to AFP news agency.

"I don't want to get too much into classified, but a warning was given," the Texas Republican added. "I think the question was at what level."

An Egyptian intelligence official told the Associated Press news agency this week that Cairo had repeatedly warned the Israelis "something big" was being planned from Gaza.

"We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The Cairo official said Israeli officials had played down the threat from Gaza, instead focusing on the West Bank.

Sir Alex Younger, who served as chief of the UK's foreign intelligence agency between 2014 and 2020, said Hamas fighters were able to carry out their attack on 7 October due to "institutional complacency" in Israel.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today Podcast there may have been an assumption by Israel that Hamas was not interested in a new conflict, so any information that contradicted that was discounted.
"It is my assumption - though I'm not on the inside - that there would be data breaking through that could have been interpreted differently and certainly would be with hindsight," he said.
He added that complacency could have been compounded by an over-reliance on technological means to monitor Gaza, leading to a false sense of security.
According to the Financial Times, quoting two unnamed officials familiar with the matter, there was no hard intelligence of a specific attack.
On Wednesday, Mr Netanyahu described any suggestion that Israel had received a specific warning in advance of the deadly incursion as "totally fake news".

Also combined with the fact we see a highly organised international media campaign to take these "horrific" events escalate the alleged crimes by a 1000% like babies beheaded, to completely dehumanise the Palestinian victims. Because once they dehumanise you they can kill you unabated.

A campaign that is even going to lengths to label anyone who doesn't go along with the Isreali narrative as terrorist sympathisers. Its a dirty game at play.

Then the pre heated statement from all the usual suspects from the president of the usa, to head of the EU to even the pope "isreal has the right to defend themselves".


Looks like Palestinians were set up.

 

[Relic]

No,you also back Armenian and PKK and Ukraine but not the WW2 winner Soviet Union/Russia.

The Soviet's lost the Cold War. Their great state dissolved in the wake of their loss and many of the countries that formed independently as a result, are now our allies on their border, living a much better, happier, more prosperous existence than they did under Soviet control.

Russia is now a failing country, with a shrinking population, mass emigration, no path towards growth through immigration and we're currently paying the cheapest price we ever will get to back a future NATO / EU member (Ukraine) in destroying what's left of the Soviet land army left to Russia.

The Soviets absolutely were a primary catalyst in us winning WWII. They then stepped up and challenged us for supremacy and they got their teeth kicked in, causing their great nation to fall appart. They weren't built strong enough to dethrone us. Maybe the next challenger will be.

 

[Ryder]

Obvious reasons, are obvious. "WE" won WWII and had the power at the time to create Israel for the Jews. We maintained the economic and military power in the post-war era to back their state an help them get a regional footing. Multiple times since their creation, regional powers in the Middle East have attempted to destroy Israel and each time, to their credit, they've swatted their aggressors away like flies and inflicted shameful and embarrassing defeats on the militaries of their regional opposition.

Simply put, we in the West like to back winners. Israel has been a winner in the region since their inception as a state.

As for people getting fired for being anti-Israel. It could be worse, you could live in one of countries surrounding Israel, where they would simply kill you, dispose of your body and threaten your fanily for disagreeing with the popular narrative in the country.

Bullcrap the Westerners made the Arabs and Jews turned against the Ottoman Empire with promises which clashed between two groups.

Arabs wanted the whole Middle East under Hashemite ruling family while the Jews were promised Palestine also parts of Syria and Jordan.

Nothing to do with winners apart from European colonial empires destroying the Middle East.

There was a reason why the Middle East was able to be at peace as long as a single ruling Empire was there once that gets shattered it turns into a place of war.

British and the French have much to answer for.

 

[Lool]

Damn, Erdogan is on fire
He has been stating some good stuff lately

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712823334751121496

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Damn, Erdogan is on fire
He has been stating some good stuff lately

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712823334751121496

I don't care about talking. I want him to get fucking nukes no matter how. Every day I see more reasons to get it...

 

[Relic]

Bullcrap the Westerners made the Arabs and Jews turned against the Ottoman Empire with promises which clashed between two groups.

Arabs wanted the whole Middle East under Hashemite ruling family while the Jews were promised Palestine also parts of Syria and Jordan.

Nothing to do with winners apart from European colonial empires destroying the Middle East.

There was a reason why the Middle East was able to be at peace as long as a single ruling Empire was there once that gets shattered it turns into a place of war.

British and the French have much to answer for.

Then make them answer for it... That's the way of humanity. Go to war with them and get your retribution. Otherwise, attempt to sanction them into irrelevancy. Good luck.

The Ottoman Empire chose the wrong side in WWI and got the crap kicked out of them by a stronger alliance. Take your "L" like a man. Some day, when we, the collective West is defeated, and make no mistake, that day will come (likely not in either of our lifetimes) we'll have to accept our loss too and find out where we fit into the new world order.