India Jet Engines and Gas Turbines

[Nilgiri]

Startup is making some advances for UAV propulsion:

Indian-startup DG Propulsion: Revolutionizing Defense with Mini-Jet Turbine Engines – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1743495324323426505

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1750482352881676400

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1755159055319073086

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1773410415025779141

 

[Lemurian]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1776294002368651671

 

[Gessler]

HTFE-25

 

[Spitfire9]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1733506260836954359

Any evidence of dry Kaveri progress? It says in the article results should be forthcoming mid-2024.

Also, any word on how the GE F414 deal is progressing?

Lastly, the SAFRAN AMCA engine proposition: any signs of progress? I have read a couple of articles recently (probably Indian press) which intimated that the selection of SAFRAN last summer as developer is not a 100% certainty. Reading between the lines, I get the impression that SAFRAN and India may not be able to agree terms on the deal (cost, TOT, who does what etc). If that proves to be the case, does India next see what terms it can get from RR and if they are unacceptable, put AMCA Mk2 on the backburner?

 

[Gessler]

Any evidence of dry Kaveri progress? It says in the article results should be forthcoming mid-2024.

Additional prototypes are being built. Don't know much other than that.

Also, any word on how the GE F414 deal is progressing?

This is the latest:

Fighter jet engine deal with India to start this year: GE Aerospace's Amy Gowder

GE Aerospace Defence & Systems President Amy Gowder in an exclusive interview with ET shared that India's fighter jet engine technology deal with the US is progressing on time and a detailed technical proposal with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be shared with HAL soon. The timeframe for...

m.economictimes.com

Lastly, the SAFRAN AMCA engine proposition: any signs of progress? I have read a couple of articles recently (probably Indian press) which intimated that the selection of SAFRAN last summer as developer is not a 100% certainty.

Still a ways to go before a partner is selected.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that SAFRAN and India may not be able to agree terms on the deal (cost, TOT, who does what etc). If that proves to be the case, does India next see what terms it can get from RR and if they are unacceptable, put AMCA Mk2 on the backburner?

I would imagine so. That's the whole idea behind de-risking the program with staggered Mk1 and Mk2 developments.

If the Next-Gen engine doesn't get anywhere, an interim solution like F414 EPE may be sought at that point.

 

[Spitfire9]

If the Next-Gen engine doesn't get anywhere, an interim solution like F414 EPE may be sought at that point.

I don't think that India will be prepared to pay the price required to develop a modern 110kN engine. I imagine a figure in excess of US$10 billion will be required to include:

- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use technologies transferred
- cost of technologies transferred
- cost of designing engine
- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use production technologies transferred
- cost of production technologies transferred
- cost of capital equipment required to manufacture the engine
- cost of iterative development changes, ground testing, flight testing the engine

Throwing $2-3 billion at GE to develop the F414EPE into a 110+kN engine seems very attractive in comparison:

- low risk of design failure
- more predictable development schedule
- low risk of massively exceeding anticipated cost

Assuming I am not wildly wrong with my cost estimates, would it not be better for India to opt for the low cost AMCA Mk2 engine option and to start a serious R&D programme to learn how to design and build fast jet engines? By 'serious R&D programme' I mean scrapping the historical government-owned system involving a large number of entities concerned with different aspects of engine development, getting the right company, the right people, the right plant and equipment involved and GOI being prepared to spend US$500 million+ annually until the objective is achieved (assuming that amount can spent constructively).

 

[Gessler]

I don't think that India will be prepared to pay the price required to develop a modern 110kN engine. I imagine a figure in excess of US$10 billion will be required to include:

- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use technologies transferred
- cost of technologies transferred
- cost of designing engine
- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use production technologies transferred
- cost of production technologies transferred
- cost of capital equipment required to manufacture the engine
- cost of iterative development changes, ground testing, flight testing the engine

A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.

Throwing $2-3 billion at GE to develop the F414EPE into a 110+kN engine seems very attractive in comparison:

- low risk of design failure
- more predictable development schedule
- low risk of massively exceeding anticipated cost

It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.

Assuming I am not wildly wrong with my cost estimates, would it not be better for India to opt for the low cost AMCA Mk2 engine option and to start a serious R&D programme to learn how to design and build fast jet engines? By 'serious R&D programme' I mean scrapping the historical government-owned system involving a large number of entities concerned with different aspects of engine development, getting the right company, the right people, the right plant and equipment involved and GOI being prepared to spend US$500 million+ annually until the objective is achieved (assuming that amount can spent constructively).

They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.

 

[Spitfire9]

A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.



It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.



They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.

 

[Gessler]

??

 

[Spitfire9]

??

Oh dear-my reply go lost somewhere.

 

[Nilgiri]

Glad Tessy Thomas was assigned here, her guidance hopefully will produce more fruit soon

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787754924102840538

 

[rai456]

A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.



It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.



They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.

Any plans for India to purchase its own testbed aircraft? Why does India still go to Russia for testing?

 

[Spitfire9]

Any plans for India to purchase its own testbed aircraft? Why does India still go to Russia for testing?

IIRC a very few years ago a serviceable ex-airline A340 could be bought for less than $30 million. Would have suited well as a platform for conversion. My guess is that two could have been purchased for little more than the cost of one Tejas Mk1A. Conversion cost airliner>flying testbed unknown to me, though.

Who knows - India is investing in a climatic test chamber suitable for fighters. Why not get control over engine testing? IIRC flight testing Kaveri in Russia was said to have been high compared to the cost of buying a flying testbed.

 

[rai456]

IIRC a very few years ago a serviceable ex-airline A340 could be bought for less than $30 million. Would have suited well as a platform for conversion. My guess is that two could have been purchased for little more than the cost of one Tejas Mk1A. Conversion cost airliner>flying testbed unknown to me, though.

Who knows - India is investing in a climatic test chamber suitable for fighters. Why not get control over engine testing? IIRC flight testing Kaveri in Russia was said to have been high compared to the cost of buying a flying testbed.

Having to wait on Russia for all testing must also delay the program significantly. Maybe they just don't have the capital budget allocated to the program for a testbad aircraft as opposed to flight testing fees which are more spread out?

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1793579825204261290

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1829441582535164109

 

[Nilgiri]

"Aerospace Is Flagbearer Of India's Manufacturing Push": GE South Asia Chief

NDTV World Summit 2024

special.ndtv.com

New Delhi:
India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will soon begin making GE Aerospace's F414 jet engine, Vikram Rai, chief executive of GE Aerospace South Asia, said at the NDTV World Summit on Monday, as he hailed the country's aerospace industry as the "flagbearer of India's manufacturing push".

The F414 engine powers some of the most advanced fighter planes in the world, including the Boeing F/A 18E/F Super Hornet, and will be the heart of the Indian Air Forces' next generation of indigenous combat aircraft.

Speaking at the NDTV World Summit Mr Rai also highlighted India's potential in the civil aviation space, pointing to two mega orders in June last year, when Air India and IndiGo ordered 970 Airbus and Boeing aircraft between them alone.

"India has approximately 800 passenger aircraft... and about 1,500 (including the Air India and IndiGo order books) are expected to be delivered over the next decade. I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg and India will continue with exponential growth over the coming years," he said.

Mr Rai referred to statements by Prime Minister Narendra Modi earlier today.

Prime Minister Modi, delivering the inaugural address, said eight new airports had begun operating in the 125 days of the Bharatiya Janata Party's third term (which began in June) alone.

The Indian middle class is flying more, Mr Rai said, because of the Modi government's "business-friendly" policies. "In a world full of chaos, the 'India story' is being talked about," he said.

"India has a middle class of about 400 million... the United State's total population is about 300 million. The US has about 7,800 aircraft... India has about 800 and .02 seats per capita..."

"But India is fast catching up to China, which has 0.7 seats per capita and the US, which as four seats per capita," the GE Aerospace head said, emphasising growth potential in the Indian aviation space.

"Less than five per cent of India's population has been on an aircraft... and about 85 per cent of all domestic air traffic is between metro cities. There is a huge runway for growth..." he said.

The scale of demand, he also said, underlines the importance of a sustainable industry, including the use of environmentally friendly technology. "We, at GE Aerospace have built new engines... these are 10 to 15 per cent more fuel efficient and register lower emission levels."

Mr Rai also said GE is currently working on an engine that will be 20 per cent more efficient and, as part of its manufacturing and R&D plans, will also invest millions of dollars in the Pune factory.

Published: October 21, 2024 13:15 IST