TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Spook]

Sancak wasn't offered into that position, he was the sole contender in the TMSF's tender for BMC.
BMC's funding came mostly from Qatar, this allowed them to take extra risks (relative to its direct competition). BMC isn't obligated to publish its annual reports, because it is not a publicly traded company. BMC only has to answer to its board of directors and investors. Otokar is a publicly traded company (on BIST), so they are obligated to publish annual reports since it's investors consists of big investors as well as small investors, people like you and me.

Sancak is an ivestor in the case of BMC. Investors don't need to have experience in specific industries. Marketing and business models and theories apply to all (if not most industries) and strategies are defined, created and implemented according to these theories and business models. Investors and CEO's don't need to learn and/or understand the intricacies of each and every business. They delegate tasks and hire the talent accordingly in order to run their business. Within the business, middle management writes reports about both internally, externally, micro and macro environment and decision makers and executive boards make their decisions according to these internal reports and presentations. In other words, investors and/or executive board members do not necessarily have to understand the business itself, they just have to understand how a business is run and recognize opportunities in the macro trend, as well as surround themselves with the talent that know the intricacies of the business they are in. Take angel investors for example, these types of investors have capital and are looking to invest in risky startups, these types of investors do not know anything about programming and writing code for instance, but they still invest in startups because they believe in the talent and potential of the people within these startups. That is what entrepenourship and doing business is. There are never guarantee's in business, be it from the government or political. Investors see an oppertunity and invest accordingly and investors (good one's at least) are fully aware of the risks and know very well that investments don't always pay out.

And yes, there is no accountability, that is why politicians, media and people in general are really easy with mudsling and accuse others of corruption, thievery and foul play just because its suits one's agenda.
(ulke olarak yumusak karnimiz, birbirimize guvenemez olduk, siyaset camur atmakla ibaret, ulke menfaati degil parti menfaati priorite ediliyor. Bize dusmanca tavir takinan ulkelerde bunun farkinda ve bize karsi bunu kullaniyorlar. Mesela Die Welle, Alman bir medya'nin ne isi var Turkce haber yapmaya, cunku iktidarin yaptigi bazi seyler Almanya'nin cikarlarina karsit oldugu icin, ve ona gore Turk kamu oyunu etkilemek icin (buna 'manufactering consent' denir). Yarin baska bir iktidar gelirse ayni seyi yapar, yani bu Erdogan, AKP veya CHP ile ibaret degil, tavirlarini cikarlarina gore degistiriyorlar. Bu ayni tavri mesela CHP iktidar olursa yine takinir. Cunku guclu Turkiye, Almanya'nin cikarina degil, bir baska bir rekabitci bir ulkenin siyasi tiyatroya cikmasi onlarin cikarina degil. Onun icin Almanya TR'nin dusmanlarina sahip cikiyor, Fetoculer mesela. Bu ayni sey'i ABD (FOX), Ingiltere (Independent Turkce) vesayre gibi ulkeler icinde diyebiliriz. Kucucuk Hollanda bile TR'ye karsi propaganda yapiyor. Bize vatandas olarak boyle tur oyunlara kanmamak dusuyor, butun sirket ve kurumlarimiza sahip cikmamiz gerekiyor. Laflarimiza dikkat etmemiz gerekiyor. Bunu yapmaz isek, Nuri Demirag olaylari, Devrim ve Anadol arabalari, vb. tekrar edebilir).

Board members did not have background. Sancak with his ties to Erdogan, was offered, recommended to contend for the BMC tender and he was given gurantee. Financial and political backing. Including incentives from government, tax payers money. BMC being private company does not change anything. Tax payer money is involved. Government and company has accountability on where money is used.

Other shareholder in BMC, Öztürks (closely tied Erdogan), Yasin Öztürk also left the company. Deleted his social media, Linkedin. Why? BMC growth is very impressive. Should be case study for business MBA programs. He should give speeches at universities, life coaching.

Qatar funding, stakeholders is key factor. Qataris most likely wanted switch Sancak with Tosyali which comes from background in heavy industries. We don't know the inner workings of the company as there is not much public information, you can't find board members directly on website, have to look up newsletters. We don't know if the company is making money. Surviving is very difficult in vehicle industry. They migh not making money or barely getting by even if they get tenders.

Why would there be effort for Sancak's etc. sell their shares to Tosyali if the company was making money. Really impressive growth for 7 years in especially in civillian vehicles.

No investor would invest in industry such as this. Buy a bankrupt vehicle company that would just burn money. No tech, nothing to differentiate than other vehicle companies. No one would invest their hundred millions without government backing, gurantee. Angel investors are Ozturks, Sancaks, Qataris. Again but it is one of the greatest success stories. Needs to be books written about it. I can see it next to Elon Musk biography. Charistmatic, go-getter gifted businessmen Sancak, got tank tender without factory, any infastructure. Then went on to find BMC Motor with government funding for strategic goals of our country. Wow.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Guys how many of FNSS Samur amphibious bridges delivered ?

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

Board members did not have background. Sancak with his ties to Erdogan, was offered, recommended to contend for the BMC tender and he was given gurantee. Financial and political backing. Including incentives from government, tax payers money. BMC being private company does not change anything. Tax payer money is involved. Government and company has accountability on where money is used.

Like I said in my previous message, board members have a background of running a business. That's all there is to it. That is what investing and doing business is all about. You don't have to have a background in heavy industries, in order to run a heavy industries company like BMC. All they have to do is hire the talent needed. According to Ethem Sancak, they invested another 300 million USD into the BMC factory, 100 million USD of which went to know-how.
At the 22 minute mark:

Regarding Ethem Sancak acquiring BMC from TMSF, According to him TMSF opened the tender 3 times. The first 2 times nobody showed interest, the 3 time Ethem Sancak was the sole contender: around the 25 minute mark in the video above.

Do you have a source on tax payer money being involved? And how was this money used by BMC?
You also said that Sancak was offered BMC and was given guarantee's, do you also have a source on this?
What exactly do state incentive's entail? And what does the state expect in return from BMC?
What are your basing your opinion on? If you have a credible source then please share. If I am missing something then I would like to know.

Other shareholder in BMC, Öztürks (closely tied Erdogan), Yasin Öztürk also left the company. Deleted his social media, Linkedin. Why? BMC growth is very impressive. Should be case study for business MBA programs. He should give speeches at universities, life coaching.

BMC's growth comes from it's strategy. It was willing to make less profit, or even losses in order to capture market share. There is nothing impressive enough to be a case study or something, because BMC hasn't done anything unique in this regard.
What makes you say that Ozturks are close to Erdogan? Having a good relationship with country leadership is a good business strategy. I could even say that the Koc family have close ties with Erdogan as well, eventhough they are known to be anti-Erdogan. Erdogan attended Koc's Ford Otosan's opening of the factory and even gave a speeh there. Members of the Koc family occasionally come together with Erdogan to discuss whatever there is to be discussed. People could cite these and claim that Koc family are close with Erdogan as well.
Getting in touch with politics and leadership don't necessarily mean there a close ties with a political party. The only reason these types of news comes up all the time is to further the narrative of 'corruption'. And this is because of low level of Turkish politics in which they are demonizing each other, and this spills over to the business world as well. I had to defend the Koc family a few times as well, as they were called traitors, and were only about imports and not about manufactering, etc. This is due to low level of Turkish politics once again.

Let me give an example:
Imagine the best and second best football players in the world. The second best football players has the ambition to become the best, but instead of training harder, he goes out and injures the best player in the world. And by process of elimination the second best is now the best player in the world. But the game of football and football fans are the victim in this, because the level of football just got a bit lower because the best football player is now injured.
That is, sadly, the case of Turkish politics. And because of the low level narrative in Turkish politics, it spills over to the business world in which Koc Holding, BMC, etc. all become the victim of demonization.

Qatar funding, stakeholders is key factor. Qataris most likely wanted switch Sancak with Tosyali which comes from background in heavy industries. We don't know the inner workings of the company as there is not much public information, you can't find board members directly on website, have to look up newsletters. We don't know if the company is making money. Surviving is very difficult in vehicle industry. They migh not making money or barely getting by even if they get tenders.

Exactly right, we don't know the inner working of the company. However I don't think the Qataris wanted the switch, as the Qatari's were the one's that came after Sancak, so they knew what they were getting themselves into. I think a more realistic opinion is that, the executives at BMC wanted to relieve some of the pressure coming in the form of negative political narratives that they may have decided for Ethem Sancak leaving would be the best decision for BMC the company. But that is me speculating at this point though. We won't exactly know until they tell us.
Regarding BMC making money or not, like I said in the previous paragraph, they may make less profit or even make a loss, in return of capturing marketing share. Loss of revenue (short term gains) is sacrificed for capturing market share is an investment for the future (long term gains).

Why would there be effort for Sancak's etc. sell their shares to Tosyali if the company was making money. Really impressive growth for 7 years in especially in civillian vehicles.

I doubt Tosyali would invest in a company that was losing money or didn't have potential for the future. Tosyali saw value in BMC as a company and decided to take the risk of acquiring 51% of the company. There is no company in the world that would be willing to invest in something if they knew for a fact that it end up in a loss.

No investor would invest in industry such as this. Buy a bankrupt vehicle company that would just burn money. No tech, nothing to differentiate than other vehicle companies. No one would invest their hundred millions without government backing, gurantee. Angel investors are Ozturks, Sancaks, Qataris. Again but it is one of the greatest success stories. Needs to be books written about it. I can see it next to Elon Musk biography. Charistmatic, go-getter gifted businessmen Sancak, got tank tender without factory, any infastructure. Then went on to find BMC Motor with government funding for strategic goals of our country. Wow.

Why would no investor invest in an industry such as this? I mean think about it, how many companies are making armored vehicles now? Katmerciler is just one of the example that made an entry into the industry. There are a few more like Tumosan, and others that I can't recall right now. Yet none of these companies have any guarantee's from the government. We already have established companies with huge market share like FNSS, Otokar and BMC and more know-how and experience. How could they possibly hope to compete right? But still they decide to make an entry into the market. That is because these companies see a potential or they feel like they have a competitive edge over the other companies. And if it doesn't turn out to be what they hoped for, I'm sure a sound company has planned for that contingency and has already made exit plans in such a scenario and move on to the next oppertunity.

BMC has infrastructure obviously. You could argue whether BMC has the infrastructure to serially produce tanks, the answer is most probably 'no'. But that would be the case for Otokar and FNSS as well. No company is going to invest in infrastructure to serially produce tanks without having the guarantee of actually producing these tanks (the guarantee being, winning the tender and getting the contract). Infrastucture and inventory have certain costs per month, having infrastructure sitting idle costs money for a company. After the tank contract is finalized, then a company starts to expand or restructure its infrastructure in order to start manufactering. BMC's Karasu plant was supposed to be the site for serial production, if I recall correctly, but the plant got delayed (construction was still ongoing the last I checked). In the meantime BMC made a deal with the State for Tank palet. The details of this deal is that BMC rents tank palet for 25 years, in return BMC is going to medernize the plant. You may agree or disagree with this Tank palet move, thats up to you. I'm not going to argue that, personally I don't mind it as I see it as 'ours', no matter what companies logo is imprinted at the front door of tank palet.

Ethem Sancak explains the reason behind tank palet at 41 minute mark in the video above.
Here he explains that there was urgent need for tank production. The original roadmap was to produce tanks in 48 to 56 month's, this included the construction of their own factory. But because of urgent need, they had the option of Tank palet factory. He also explains here that they rented tank palet for 25 years, in return BMC must invest in the infrastucture of Tank palet plant so that it gets the ability to produce and manufacture tanks. The athority of tank palet plant lies with SSB, where Ethem Sancak says that even BMC's employee's will get vetted by SSB in order to gain access to the plant.

 

[Test7]

Dear members;

Posts that violate forum rules have been deleted. Please control that your posts are not off-topic and do not violate forum rules.

 

[Spook]

I tried using oppositon free media

BMC satış ihalesinde tek teklif

TMSF'nin Çukurova Holding'ten yönetimini devraldığı ağır ve zırhlı araç üreticisi BMC'nin satış ihalesinde tek teklif, 725 milyon lira ile iş adamı Sancak'ın sahibi olduğu ES Mali Yatırım ve Danışmalık AŞ'den geldi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Sancak was the only one to give offer during purchase tender. He also stated Qatari intention to invest. Sancak bought BMC around 700 million liras in 2014. Shortly after purchase sold Qatari investors 49.9 percent of shares for said to be few hundred million dollars.

Grants, incentives from government to develop infrastructure has to be public. They have to have a report on where the money went and performance report.

BMC'nin dizel motor üretimine 'süper teşvik'

BMC Otomotiv'in Sakarya'ya yapılacak dizel motor, transmisyon ve alt  sistemleri üretim tesisi yatırımı, proje bazlı devlet yardımı kapsamına alındı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

"Yatırım için 585 milyon liralık sabit yatırım miktarı öngörülüyor. 600 kişilik ilave istihdam sağlayacak yatırımda 24 nitelikli personel görev yapacak.

Yatırım süresi sonunda yılda 35 bin dizel motor, transmisyon ve alt sistem üretimi öngörülüyor.

BMC'nin yatırımı KDV istisnası, gümrük vergisi muafiyeti, KDV iadesi, kurumlar vergisi indirimi (vergi indirim oranı yüzde 100, yatırıma katkı oranı yüzde 72, yatırıma katkı tutarının yatırım döneminde kullanılabilecek oranı yüzde 100), sigorta primi işveren hissesi desteği (azami tutar sınırı olmaksızın 10 yıl), gelir vergisi stopajı desteği (10 yıl), nitelikli personel desteği (azami 69 milyon lira), faiz desteği ve/veya kar payı desteği (141 milyon lirayı aşmamak üzere kredi kullanım tarihinden itibaren azami 10 yıl), enerji desteği (işletmeye geçiş tarihinden itibaren 10 yıla kadar 12 milyon lirayı aşmamak üzere enerji tüketim harcamalarının yüzde 50'si)."

Why Qataris, private investors are involved with BMC Power if it is funded by Turkish government? Rights all of the engines belong to SSB. Since its government funded why I can't find info. My tax money.

Linkedin page of TRMOTOR, probably wasn't updated. Why was BMC Power, company with no experience in aircraft engines was tried being included as the largest stakeholder? Isn't TRMOTOR government funded project? Qatar brothers going to invest billions to us for fighter jet engine.

BMC's growth comes from it's strategy. It was willing to make less profit, or even losses in order to capture market share. There is nothing impressive enough to be a case study or something, because BMC hasn't done anything unique in this regard.

How this business model supposed to work? Do they make their money after sale? Do they like sell software updates for the features to the bus buyers? We are talking about vehicles that have to be as with low maintenance. Buses, trucks get used for 10+ years. Top income is transport tenders such as the buses. Even with high market share company could go bankrupt that is not even with the competition considered.

BMC has infrastructure obviously. You could argue whether BMC has the infrastructure to serially produce tanks, the answer is most probably 'no'. But that would be the case for Otokar and FNSS as well. No company is going to invest in infrastructure to serially produce tanks without having the guarantee of actually producing these tanks (the guarantee being, winning the tender and getting the contract). Infrastucture and inventory have certain costs per month, having infrastructure sitting idle costs money for a company. After the tank contract is finalized, then a company starts to expand or restructure its infrastructure in order to start manufactering. BMC's Karasu plant was supposed to be the site for serial production, if I recall correctly, but the plant got delayed (construction was still ongoing the last I checked). In the meantime BMC made a deal with the State for Tank palet. The details of this deal is that BMC rents tank palet for 25 years, in return BMC is going to medernize the plant. You may agree or disagree with this Tank palet move, thats up to you. I'm not going to argue that, personally I don't mind it as I see it as 'ours', no matter what companies logo is imprinted at the front door of tank palet.

Otokar or FNSS needed much less investment to start producing tanks. Also infrastructure just for serial production is not enough. Company needs to have R&D capabilities to improve the tank. Last up armored Altay wasn't the serial production variant. BMC's capabilities are far lacking in this area, especially tracked vehicles, it's one of the reason why they did a very bad job coming up with products to compete despite the backing. Even Tank palette factory had better R&D capabilities in tracked vehicles than BMC.

3.5 was never realistic number per tank. Even with factory wouldn't be possible. There is was no transparency on Altay tender. Technically since no info given and no requirement for factory I could had just gaved my offer too. There is no transparency on tender in general. It used to be much more public.

Why would no investor invest in an industry such as this? I mean think about it, how many companies are making armored vehicles now? Katmerciler is just one of the example that made an entry into the industry. There are a few more like Tumosan, and others that I can't recall right now. Yet none of these companies have any guarantee's from the government. We already have established companies with huge market share like FNSS, Otokar and BMC and more know-how and experience. How could they possibly hope to compete right? But still they decide to make an entry into the market. That is because these companies see a potential or they feel like they have a competitive edge over the other companies. And if it doesn't turn out to be what they hoped for, I'm sure a sound company has planned for that contingency and has already made exit plans in such a scenario and move on to the next oppertunity.

I did not say armored vehicles. BMC did not expand its military vehicle family until 2016s. Main product for military was Kirpi and trucks at the time. BMCs main income was from civilian sector. Buses, trucks etc. Companies military products wasn't enough to make it lucrative investment.

I doubt Tosyali would invest in a company that was losing money or didn't have potential for the future. Tosyali saw value in BMC as a company and decided to take the risk of acquiring 51% of the company. There is no company in the world that would be willing to invest in something if they knew for a fact that it end up in a loss.

Unless you get guarantee

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

I tried using oppositon free media

BMC satış ihalesinde tek teklif

TMSF'nin Çukurova Holding'ten yönetimini devraldığı ağır ve zırhlı araç üreticisi BMC'nin satış ihalesinde tek teklif, 725 milyon lira ile iş adamı Sancak'ın sahibi olduğu ES Mali Yatırım ve Danışmalık AŞ'den geldi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Sancak was the only one to give offer during purchase tender. He also stated Qatari intention to invest. Sancak bought BMC around 700 million liras in 2014. Shortly after purchase sold Qatari investors 49.9 percent of shares for said to be few hundred million dollars.

According to the first AA.com.tr source, Ethem Sancak already was in talks with the Qatari investors. That meant that Sancak was going to share the risk of acquiring BMC with his Qatari partners. This suggests that Sancak had a plan and a roadmap with his Qatari investors as suggesting by this quote from AA source: “Cuma günü, bu teklifimiz onaylanırsa hayırlısıyla BMC’yi alacağız. Sonra da niyetimiz bu kuruma asgari 500 milyon dolar yatırım yaparak bir global küresel marka haline dönüştürmektir. Bu potansiyel bu kurumda var.”

This suggests that Sancak and his Qatari partners already had made the plan to invest another 500 million USD into BMC. This most likely means that the Qatari investment was used to invest in BMC itself. Ethem Sancak stated in his interview that I had posted in my previous post, where he said that he invested 300 million USD in BMC’s Izmir plant. Their Karasu plant is in construction, this shows that BMC’s investors are still investing in BMC and its long term vision is to grow (as evidenced by all the projects it is running as well). However, Qatari’s part during the tender does raise the question, whether half of the 750 million TL paid to TMSF was paid by the Qatari’s or not. I assume the Qatari’s didn’t pay half of 750 million TL, but can’t say that for sure. Because of all the investments in BMC, I think Qatar’s sum paid for 49% went to BMC proper, and not to TMSF. If it is the latter, then it's probable that both Qatari’s together with Sancak’s money went into the BMC investments.

This coupled with BMC’s ‘super tesvik’ projects. BMC actually has 4 super tesvik’s, not just the engine one. All of this suggests that BMC is very ambitious, it seems like BMC is looking to become something like Siemens, Hitachi or Caterpillar of Turkey.

Grants, incentives from government to develop infrastructure has to be public. They have to have a report on where the money went and performance report.

View attachment 25436

BMC'nin dizel motor üretimine 'süper teşvik'

BMC Otomotiv'in Sakarya'ya yapılacak dizel motor, transmisyon ve alt  sistemleri üretim tesisi yatırımı, proje bazlı devlet yardımı kapsamına alındı. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

"Yatırım için 585 milyon liralık sabit yatırım miktarı öngörülüyor. 600 kişilik ilave istihdam sağlayacak yatırımda 24 nitelikli personel görev yapacak.

Yatırım süresi sonunda yılda 35 bin dizel motor, transmisyon ve alt sistem üretimi öngörülüyor.

BMC'nin yatırımı KDV istisnası, gümrük vergisi muafiyeti, KDV iadesi, kurumlar vergisi indirimi (vergi indirim oranı yüzde 100, yatırıma katkı oranı yüzde 72, yatırıma katkı tutarının yatırım döneminde kullanılabilecek oranı yüzde 100), sigorta primi işveren hissesi desteği (azami tutar sınırı olmaksızın 10 yıl), gelir vergisi stopajı desteği (10 yıl), nitelikli personel desteği (azami 69 milyon lira), faiz desteği ve/veya kar payı desteği (141 milyon lirayı aşmamak üzere kredi kullanım tarihinden itibaren azami 10 yıl), enerji desteği (işletmeye geçiş tarihinden itibaren 10 yıla kadar 12 milyon lirayı aşmamak üzere enerji tüketim harcamalarının yüzde 50'si)."

BMC isn’t the only company that gets super tesvik. But regarding this topic, it seems the government is giving BMC, at least the engine one according to the link you provided, no subsidies or grants. The link you provided states: “"Yatırım için 585 milyon liralık sabit yatırım miktarı öngörülüyor. 600 kişilik ilave istihdam sağlayacak yatırımda 24 nitelikli personel görev yapacak…” then it goes on the details about the incentives.
I am pretty sure the 585 million TL isn’t coming from the state, but it is an investment coming from BMC itself. Because in the paragraph after next, the sentence starts with “BMC’nin yatırımı KDV istisnasi…” suggesting that it is going to be BMC itself doing the investing/funding. Now I could be wrong here but it seems that BMC is funding its own project. If it does turn out that the state is funding the engine project and pays the 585 million TL to BMC, I personally don’t mind. It is a small price to pay for strategic independence. We see on this forum how BMC’s engine’s are coming along nicely, so far BMC is on schedule to deliver what was promised.

My understanding of the ‘super tesvik’ program was that “invest in these areas, and you will get incentives like tax cuts, etc”. This is what I understood of it when I first heard about super tesvik and is still my understanding of it today. This is further supplemented if I look at Ford Otosan’s super tesvik: 20.5 billion TL is going to be invested in the Kocaeli plant in which the focus will lie on exporting the vehicles manufactured there. I don’t think Ford Otosan is going to get 20.5 billion TL from the government as that is quite a substantial number, instead Ford Otosan will invest its own resources into its own plant in Kocaeli, once it is done it will be able to benefit from the super incentives as stated in the program.

Now I am sure in some of these 34 super tesvik projects there is state funding involved if I were to look hard enough, but I wouldn’t mind it in such a case. Here’s why:
My opinion on these ‘super tesvik’ programs is that it is one of the best things, if not the best thing that came out of the government. Coupled with Organize Sanayi bolgeleri (OSB), the goal of achieving 3% or higher of the GDP going to R&D. There are a few more I can’t recall right now.
Super tesvik started off with 20 projects, I am glad to say that it got expanded to 34 projects. All these projects are within areas of strategic importance. Some of them are directly in line to combat current account deficit (cari acik), while others contribute towards strategic independence (like in the energy field, or defence industry). The projects within the super incentive program range between industries. There are projects within the transportation, health, defence, food, agriculture, automotive, chemicals industry etc.

Here is an update about the state of various super tesvik programs and how long they will take:

'Süper teşvik'te 2 yatırım bitti

DÜNYA, toplamı 115 milyar lirayı bulan proje bazlı teşvik sistemi kapsamındaki yatırımları araştırdı. Yüksek teknoloji ve stratejik alanlarda dev bütçe gerektiren 34 projede üretim süreci farklı seyrediyor.

www.dunya.com

Why Qataris, private investors are involved with BMC Power if it is funded by Turkish government? Rights all of the engines belong to SSB. Since its government funded why I can't find info. My tax money.

We can't find info because either the info is out there but we simply can't find it, or the government/state deemed it necessary not to share that info for whatever reason, these are military projects we are talking about. But then again, I am sure there are loads of faaliyet raporlari out there that are public to us, but yet none of us would have the patience to read.

I don’t know if all the rights of the engine’s belong to SSB or not, Altay’s engine probably belongs to SSB as there was a tender for it but I don't know what was agreed to between BMC and SSB. But the other engine’s are likely BMC’s own initiative. But all of BMC's engine's are part of the super incentive program I believe.

BMC is a company (whether its private or public), with investors. These investors can be Turkish, Qatari, Chinese, English, etc. There is no point in discriminating against investors. Grundig is owned by Koc group (if it hasn’t changed, haven’t checked for a while), even though it’s main investor is Turkish (foreign) it is still a German company (indigenous). Having foreign investors doesn’t make a company foreign or local.

View attachment 25437
Linkedin page of TRMOTOR, probably wasn't updated. Why was BMC Power, company with no experience in aircraft engines was tried being included as the largest stakeholder? Isn't TRMOTOR government funded project? Qatar brothers going to invest billions to us for fighter jet engine.

TRMotor is a government project, but since there are multiple entities within the company, then it's probable that (some) of the funding comes from the companies involved. All companies involved are there for a reason, they all bring something to the table, whether its know-how, resources, funding, etc. The specifics I don’t know, but I am sure the people involved know the in’s and out’s and act accordingly. And if Qatari’s feel like an investment is going to pay off, then they can invest in whatever they want, if the counterparty allows this of course. This is not only true for Qatari’s but all investors in general.

How this business model supposed to work? Do they make their money after sale? Do they like sell software updates for the features to the bus buyers? We are talking about vehicles that have to be as with low maintenance. Buses, trucks get used for 10+ years. Top income is transport tenders such as the buses. Even with high market share company could go bankrupt that is not even with the competition considered.

What I wrote was not a business model by the way, it is a strategy as to how you place yourself in the market as opposed to the competition, a goal for short, medium or long term (depending on what stage the company is in and current market share). There is maintenance and spare parts etc. involved. That is one aspect. Boeing (iirc) makes more money from spare parts than final products. But that is not what I meant by becoming a market leader. As a company, once you have the largest market share, then that means your company has certain advantages over the competition, it also makes it easier to price products in order to make profit or at the very least adjust the price as a defensive measure so that competitors have a harder time competing against you. A large size allows for a company to take advantage of ‘economies of scale’, when costs are spread over a large number of goods and products. It allows the company to buy out the small competition if they wish to do so. It’s sheer size as market leader allows it to just lean on its competition, instead of very actively competing. Being market leader brings many advantages in relation to one’s competition. And yes, even a market leader position comes with risks and disadvantages too, like disruptive technologies and trends (Tesla for instance forced the automotive industry to adapt), but there is always risk in doing business.

Otokar or FNSS needed much less investment to start producing tanks. Also infrastructure just for serial production is not enough. Company needs to have R&D capabilities to improve the tank. Last up armored Altay wasn't the serial production variant. BMC's capabilities are far lacking in this area, especially tracked vehicles, it's one of the reason why they did a very bad job coming up with products to compete despite the backing. Even Tank palette factory had better R&D capabilities in tracked vehicles than BMC.

I don’t know about all that, maybe for FNSS, but Otokar doesn’t have a production line for tracked vehicles as far as I know. But even so, FNSS would still need to invest in a production line for Altay. If we look at the tender, BMC was the one that gave the lowest offer after all and it was already in the process of investing into its infrastructure as evident from the first AA source, in which it was stated they were planning to invest 500 million USD into BMC. The R&D talent from Altay (when it was at Otokar) migrated to BMC according to Sancak in his interview (around the 29 minute mark in my previous post).
However I would be doing a disservice to FNSS and Otokar, because I don’t know the internal calculations of these respective companies when they were giving their offer. Besides that BMC has the advantage of its investors (this is speculation on my part, based on the strategy that I tried to explain in my few posts in this thread).

I did not say armored vehicles. BMC did not expand its military vehicle family until 2016s. Main product for military was Kirpi and trucks at the time. BMCs main income was from civilian sector. Buses, trucks etc. Companies military products wasn't enough to make it lucrative investment.

Even before Ethem Sancak, BMC made the leap into military vehicles. BMC was already delivering Kirpi trucks to the army when it was still Cukurova holding. It delivered 295 Kirpi’s before TMSF took BMC over: https://web.archive.org/web/2016010...armoured_vehicles_to_turkish_army_290314.html
If BMC had stayed a healthy company then I am pretty sure it would’ve expanded into other military vehicles. You already got the know-how of armour, and other military technology. It would’ve been a waste of know-how to only keep producing Kirpi’s and not expanding your product range within the military segment.

Unless you get guarantee

There is no guarantee in investing and doing business. Only risk mitigation and planning for contingencies. You invest in the potential but make an exit plan or mitigation plan in the case it doesn't work out.

 

[Spook]

Even before Ethem Sancak, BMC made the leap into military vehicles. BMC was already delivering Kirpi trucks to the army when it was still Cukurova holding. It delivered 295 Kirpi’s before TMSF took BMC over: https://web.archive.org/web/2016010...armoured_vehicles_to_turkish_army_290314.html
If BMC had stayed a healthy company then I am pretty sure it would’ve expanded into other military vehicles. You already got the know-how of armour, and other military technology. It would’ve been a waste of know-how to only keep producing Kirpi’s and not expanding your product range within the military segment.

BMC made majority of it's money on civillian sector before and after acquisition. Kirpis were based on Carmor products. Carmor (Hatehof) developed and provided design, know-how etc. Used imported parts even after acquisition. Most parts recently got nationalized.

From IDEF 2015, after acquisition.

Carmor Hurricane https://amosboaz.com/project/carmor-hurricane/

IDEF 2017, BMC Vuran

Cooperation is no problem. But BMC even after acquisition barely made effort to change or improve designs.

I don’t know about all that, maybe for FNSS, but Otokar doesn’t have a production line for tracked vehicles as far as I know. But even so, FNSS would still need to invest in a production line for Altay. If we look at the tender, BMC was the one that gave the lowest offer after all and it was already in the process of investing into its infrastructure as evident from the first AA source, in which it was stated they were planning to invest 500 million USD into BMC. The R&D talent from Altay (when it was at Otokar) migrated to BMC according to Sancak in his interview (around the 29 minute mark in my previous post).

Otokar has its own R&D infrastructure and produced variants. They were contracted for the development of the tank and delivered it under schedule. Otokar said 18 months to start serial production line in 2015. Which is believable as they were always within schedule. You invest in infrastructure with your own money. Then hundreds of millions to build a tank factory. It reflects to tanks price. Tank becomes even more expensive than Otokar's offer.

Leopard modernization under BMC. 2018-2019.

Roketsan modernization developed less than a year

Aselsan Leopard 2NG from 2011

Wasting resources, delaying tenders. Can't even come up with decent products despite backing.

BMC Leotay was an absolute joke. Over armored. Integrated light, camera panel to armor. Not even towing hooks.

Turrets belongs to Aselsan. Nothing special about this vehicle. Pay attention to the front wheels. There is issues with the suspension. FNSS, Otokar tactical wheel vehicles have been in development for 15+ years.

FNSS from 2017. Stopping tests. Pay attention to the wheels.

What I wrote was not a business model by the way, it is a strategy as to how you place yourself in the market as opposed to the competition, a goal for short, medium or long term (depending on what stage the company is in and current market share). There is maintenance and spare parts etc. involved. That is one aspect. Boeing (iirc) makes more money from spare parts than final products. But that is not what I meant by becoming a market leader. As a company, once you have the largest market share, then that means your company has certain advantages over the competition, it also makes it easier to price products in order to make profit or at the very least adjust the price as a defensive measure so that competitors have a harder time competing against you. A large size allows for a company to take advantage of ‘economies of scale’, when costs are spread over a large number of goods and products. It allows the company to buy out the small competition if they wish to do so. It’s sheer size as market leader allows it to just lean on its competition, instead of very actively competing. Being market leader brings many advantages in relation to one’s competition. And yes, even a market leader position comes with risks and disadvantages too, like disruptive technologies and trends (Tesla for instance forced the automotive industry to adapt), but there is always risk in doing business.

BMC doesn't have products to differentiate. Do they produce tech? No. Boeing and Airbus is a duopoly. They can adjust anything as they like.

I don’t know if all the rights of the engine’s belong to SSB or not, Altay’s engine probably belongs to SSB as there was a tender for it but I don't know what was agreed to between BMC and SSB. But the other engine’s are likely BMC’s own initiative. But all of BMC's engine's are part of the super incentive program I believe.

600HP Azra rights belong BMC. Rights of military engines like UTKU, BATU belong to government. Project and infrastructure is fully funded by government.

TRMotor is a government project, but since there are multiple entities within the company, then it's probable that (some) of the funding comes from the companies involved. All companies involved are there for a reason, they all bring something to the table, whether its know-how, resources, funding, etc. The specifics I don’t know, but I am sure the people involved know the in’s and out’s and act accordingly. And if Qatari’s feel like an investment is going to pay off, then they can invest in whatever they want, if the counterparty allows this of course. This is not only true for Qatari’s but all investors in general.

They wanted use it to get into Kale-Rolls Royce JV to grab share from MMU. Talks stalled, after most likely BMC persons left TRMOTOR.

 

[Philips]

Pay attention to the front wheels. There is issues with the suspension

Because the driver was hitting the breaks when the photo was taken.

 

[Spook]

Because the driver was hitting the breaks when the photo was taken.

The wheels front wheel are uneven. There is a issue with the suspension. Compare it to the brake tests of FNSS and Otokar. Bad demonstration and product when you have 2 excellent vehicles. They delay tenders for this.

 

[comolokko]

Kosovo bought 14 kirpi vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DckYj3_Mjrw

link

 

[Era_shield]

The wheels front wheel are uneven. There is a issue with the suspension. Compare it to the brake tests of FNSS and Otokar. Bad demonstration and product when you have 2 excellent vehicles. They delay tenders for this.

The BMC video shows it from the front, your video from the side.

Some of your other comparisons are also pretty bad, for example comparing Leopard 2NG, which used many foreign components, to fully domestic solutions, and comparing armour just from pictures as though any meaningful comparison is possible from that.

Time will tell if BMC is any good at designing these things.

 

[Spook]

The BMC video shows it from the front, your video from the side.

Some of your other comparisons are also pretty bad, for example comparing Leopard 2NG, which used many foreign components, to fully domestic solutions, and comparing armour just from pictures as though any meaningful comparison is possible from that.

Time will tell if BMC is any good at designing these things.

Aselsan NG is an very good example. Company which did not manufacture vehicles came up with that design and competed against Rheinmetall's offer in 2011. Everything at that time used large amount of foreign parts. Armor parts recently got nationalized. Not by vehicle companies. BMC had a JV company with Rheinmetall formed in 2015 to advice etc. Manufacturing together Altay was one of the things Absolute joke for the purpose of Altay project and you have infrastructure to build it domestically.

As I said cooperation is no problem. FNSS is the best example with BAE Systems, Otokar used foreign designs. They both improved the designs to excellent products. BMC did not came up with a good product aside from Kirpi. Barely made effort to improve designs. Why did even Qatar who owns share in BMC buy tactical armored vehicles from Nurol when they can buy Amazon, Vuran.

BMC was given around 2 years for Leo modernization. At the height of Syria operations. They failed to come up with modernization. We could had used that time to give modernization to Roketsan etc. and fielded as soon as possible. Why it got delayed to this time. Why an company with no knowledge was included.

 

[Spook]

Aselsan NG is an very good example. Company which did not manufacture vehicles came up with that design and competed against Rheinmetall's offer in 2011. Everything at that time used large amount of foreign parts. Armor parts recently got nationalized. Not by vehicle companies. BMC had a JV company with Rheinmetall formed in 2015 to advice etc. Manufacturing together Altay was one of the things Absolute joke for the purpose of Altay project and you have infrastructure to build it domestically.

As I said cooperation is no problem. FNSS is the best example with BAE Systems, Otokar used foreign designs. They both improved the designs to excellent products. BMC did not came up with a good product aside from Kirpi. Barely made effort to improve designs. Why did even Qatar who owns share in BMC buy tactical armored vehicles from Nurol when they can buy Amazon, Vuran.

BMC was given around 2 years for Leo modernization. At the height of Syria operations. They failed to come up with modernization. We could had used that time to give modernization to Roketsan etc. and fielded as soon as possible. Why it got delayed to this time. Why an company with no knowledge was included.

Addition to BMC capability of designing wheeled armored vehicles.

Pay attention to the driver wheel. This is terrible performance even for prototype. No one comes up with this. They spent more time on the interior most likely. There is local companies that could design better vehicles and they do. No one would take it seriously under normal conditions. This is what you get when you include nepotism and imbeciles.

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

BMC made majority of it's money on civillian sector before and after acquisition. Kirpis were based on Carmor products. Carmor (Hatehof) developed and provided design, know-how etc. Used imported parts even after acquisition. Most parts recently got nationalized.

View attachment 25498
From IDEF 2015, after acquisition.

View attachment 25499

View attachment 25500
Carmor Hurricane https://amosboaz.com/project/carmor-hurricane/

View attachment 25501
IDEF 2017, BMC Vuran

Cooperation is no problem. But BMC even after acquisition barely made effort to change or improve designs.



Otokar has its own R&D infrastructure and produced variants. They were contracted for the development of the tank and delivered it under schedule. Otokar said 18 months to start serial production line in 2015. Which is believable as they were always within schedule. You invest in infrastructure with your own money. Then hundreds of millions to build a tank factory. It reflects to tanks price. Tank becomes even more expensive than Otokar's offer.

View attachment 25505
Leopard modernization under BMC. 2018-2019.

View attachment 25506
Roketsan modernization developed less than a year

View attachment 25507
Aselsan Leopard 2NG from 2011

Wasting resources, delaying tenders. Can't even come up with decent products despite backing.

View attachment 25510
BMC Leotay was an absolute joke. Over armored. Integrated light, camera panel to armor. Not even towing hooks.

View attachment 25511
Turrets belongs to Aselsan. Nothing special about this vehicle. Pay attention to the front wheels. There is issues with the suspension. FNSS, Otokar tactical wheel vehicles have been in development for 15+ years.

FNSS from 2017. Stopping tests. Pay attention to the wheels.



BMC doesn't have products to differentiate. Do they produce tech? No. Boeing and Airbus is a duopoly. They can adjust anything as they like.



600HP Azra rights belong BMC. Rights of military engines like UTKU, BATU belong to government. Project and infrastructure is fully funded by government.



They wanted use it to get into Kale-Rolls Royce JV to grab share from MMU. Talks stalled, after most likely BMC persons left TRMOTOR.

How BMC makes revenue from the civilian sector etc. that is all fair enough. I never argued that. Your post suggested that BMC wasn't already in the military industry before the aquisition, or it gave me that impression at least. And I stated that BMC was already in the military sector and already provided the army with Kirpi's. I never went into how much money BMC made from the civillian or military sector, nor do I find it relevant.

Your post shows that BMC isn't sitting idle and is developing on its product range. It seems to me like you are nitpicking and critisizing on their products, so what if BMC is using Aselsan turrets? Why is that a problem? Other Turkish companies have been using Aselsan products as well. As long as it's domestic, it's all good in my opinion. I mean the products presented by BMC look fine to me. The front wheels of the LAV look a bit slanted to the side, sure, but I'm sure that will be fixed in the coming future. I have seen many projects througout the years where some details was concirning or annoying me, inlcuding the Altay tanks, MPT76 and countless others that I can't even recall right now and eventually they all got fixed as time went on. What we see and notice from a small picture on the internet, believe me, the people surrounding those projects are already aware of it. So I learned to not focus on such details as much anymore (still can't let go sometimes though).

You said it yourself, Otokar and FNSS have been developing wheeled vehicles for years now. But even these companies had humble beginnings. FNSS bought the rights of a foreign LAV to make it's PARS 1. BMC having some imperfections is nothing to be frowned upon as it is their first attempt at an LAV as well.

My example of Boeing was regarding about maintenence and parts manufactering for their sold products. The point I was trying to make is, they make revenue supplying parts to existing costumers, some companies even make more revenue from parts then from the final product itself (Boeing for example). I am not saying this is the case for BMC, my point is that there is substantial revenue to be made in aftermarket parts. BMC has this same advantage, not as much as Boeing does obviously, but its heavy industry products need to have maintenence and procurement of aftermarket parts etc for buses, armored vehicles, etc. A company doesn't have to produce tech, all they have to do produce a final product or service to be profitable. This applies to BMC, Otokar, FNSS, or any other company for hat matter as well.

BMC was given around 2 years for Leo modernization. At the height of Syria operations. They failed to come up with modernization. We could had used that time to give modernization to Roketsan etc. and fielded as soon as possible. Why it got delayed to this time. Why an company with no knowledge was included.

The modernization was based on Roketsan for armor and Aselsan for electronics (for the first 40 Leopard 2A4's, if I understood correctly). The project wasn't delayed. We have to calculate a realistic timeframe for the development of these projects as well. There were extensive discussions regarding the armor that Roketsan would on this forum and back on PKD, that was the main topic of the Leopard to upgrade. The intergration of Roketsan/Aselsan updgrades is done at Arifiye, as that is the site for the maintenence of Leopard 2A4 tanks. We also saw the Altay turret on a Leopard 4 for the first time.
The project start was in april of 2018 and 2 years later in 2020 we saw the first glimpse of the upgrades for Leopard 2's: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/leopard-2a4-modernizasyonu-yeni-gelismeler/
There will be a tender for the remaining Leopard upgrades (article is from 2020, I don't know if the tender has taken place already in the mean time). In which FNSS and BMC have both made offers on the date of the savunmasanayist.com article's publication (jan 2021).

To compare, Zeytin Dali started in January 2018 and firat kalkani was in 2016. In the meantime M60T got modernized by Aselsan and the project was finished in july of 2020: https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/icerik/m60t-tanklarinin-modernizasyonu-tamamlandi-4113

As I said cooperation is no problem. FNSS is the best example with BAE Systems, Otokar used foreign designs. They both improved the designs to excellent products. BMC did not came up with a good product aside from Kirpi. Barely made effort to improve designs. Why did even Qatar who owns share in BMC buy tactical armored vehicles from Nurol when they can buy Amazon, Vuran.

Qatar did order 1500 BMC Amazon vehicles in 2017:

https://defence-blog.com/qatar-ordered-1500-amazon-vehicles-from-turkish-manufacturer-bmc/

Some Amazon and Kirpi's were delivered to Qatar in 2018:

Turkey to deliver 85 armored vehicles to Qatar

BMC to deliver 50 mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles, 35 multi-purpose armored vehicles to Qatar - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Spook]

Roketsan/Aselsan updgrades is done at Arifiye, as that is the site for the maintenence of Leopard 2A4 tanks. We also saw the Altay turret on a Leopard 4 for the first time.

Tank modernization by Roketsan is add-on armor. Tanks do not go to factory. It's done in border cities near operation areas. Current modernization does not include electronics upgrade. More broad upgrade most likely going to be done by FNSS.

You said it yourself, Otokar and FNSS have been developing wheeled vehicles for years now. But even these companies had humble beginnings. FNSS bought the rights of a foreign LAV to make it's PARS 1. BMC having some imperfections is nothing to be frowned upon as it is their first attempt at an LAV as well.

Issue with this is tenders are not transparent. FNSS, Otokar already offering excellent products that has been developed for 15+ years. What does BMC offer. Why tactical wheel tender delayed to this point if we have the capabilities.

My example of Boeing was regarding about maintenence and parts manufactering for their sold products. The point I was trying to make is, they make revenue supplying parts to existing costumers, some companies even make more revenue from parts then from the final product itself (Boeing for example). I am not saying this is the case for BMC, my point is that there is substantial revenue to be made in aftermarket parts. BMC has this same advantage, not as much as Boeing does obviously, but its heavy industry products need to have maintenence and procurement of aftermarket parts etc for buses, armored vehicles, etc. A company doesn't have to produce tech, all they have to do produce a final product or service to be profitable. This applies to BMC, Otokar, FNSS, or any other company for hat matter as well.

Boeing, Airbus owns the market. They get no competition. They dominate and control commercial aviation.

Qatar did order 1500 BMC Amazon vehicles in 2017:

This order stalled. Qatar only bought small numbers. Then went with Nurol products

 

[Spook]

This is to visualize. This is incomplete. Do your own research.

Sancak's are very close to Ak Parti and Erdogan. They also owned pool media. Critical for Ak Parti's media organization.

Ozturk are very close to Ak Parti and Erdogan.

Tosyali Holding are very close too and the new CEO's father was an founding member of Ak Parti.

Lol

 

[Spook]

Money grab operation. Mafyatik ne oldugu belli olmayan kisiler. Sirketin icinde bunlarin arkadaslarida var. Sermaye partisi

Big boss

There is no corruption. No nepotism. Tenders are transparent and equal

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

Tank modernization by Roketsan is add-on armor. Tanks do not go to factory. It's done in border cities near operation areas. Current modernization does not include electronics upgrade. More broad upgrade most likely going to be done by FNSS.

According to this source, the upgrades for Leopard 2's will be done at Arifiye (I cited this source in my previous source as well):

Leopard 2A4 Modernizasyonu Yeni Gelişmeler | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Kara Kuvvetleri’nin Leopard 2A4 Modernizasyonu ihtiyacına yönelik olarak farklı projeler ortaya çıktıkça, çeşitli soru işaretleri de beraberinde geliyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I think some M60's had gone upgrade's at border area's when the cross border operations were happening, if I remember correctly.

Issue with this is tenders are not transparent. FNSS, Otokar already offering excellent products that has been developed for 15+ years. What does BMC offer. Why tactical wheel tender delayed to this point if we have the capabilities.

The answer is simple, tenders are made by the SSB according to the needs of Turkish armed forces.
When did SSB express the intention of opening a tactical wheel tender?

Boeing, Airbus owns the market. They get no competition. They dominate and control commercial aviation.

That's not what I said nor relevant to the topic at hand. It feels like purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote in that paragraph. I eloborated on it the second time I worte it.

This order stalled. Qatar only bought small numbers. Then went with Nurol products

Did they completely cancel it?

Money grab operation. Mafyatik ne oldugu belli olmayan kisiler. Sirketin icinde bunlarin arkadaslarida var. Sermaye partisi

View attachment 25554

View attachment 25555

Big boss

There is no corruption. No nepotism. Tenders are transparent and equal

All of this is proof of corruption?
A couple of pictures of people standing next to each other, or that some people are affiliated with some political party isn't proof of corruption.

We know that Turkey is a country full of ideolog's and people with strong political opinions. That is even evident in this forum, also the root cause of bashing BMC. Otherwise no one in their right mind would bash a strategically important and vital company like BMC and Koc holding etc.

If you were to shun these types of people out of doing business then there would be no one Turkey left to do business. Just take the fact that TUSIAD and MUSIAD exists, the reason there are two of these business associations is because of ideologies. TUSIAD being more left, while MUSIAD is more right, because they couldn't get along with each other. Tomorrow when another political party is going to be in power, it is going to be the same arguments over again but with different companies. Am I happy with this situation? No way. I have been vocal about this problem in quite a few of my posts in this forum. However I am not going to call foul or corruption just because some people are ideologically or politically connected to each other. Unless there is actual proof of corruption of medling, I wouldn't be helping the situation at all by accusing people or organizations of foul play. Matter of fact, I would be part of the problem if I did that.
This has been going on for decades by the way, this isn't at all unique to AKP and BMC. These same arguments were used about different companies and different political parties throughout different era's of our history (Cumhuriyet tarihi). We as a country can't afford to do this to be honest, we really need to step out of this mindless ideological nonsense and focus on actual problems. Corruption and these sorts of allegations are thrown out daily, that once there is actually corruption then no one actually believes it and does something about it.

I don't like that we as a country are full of ideologs. People are supporting political parties like it is their favorite football team. And this reflects to the business world as well. The same is true not just about AKP, but other established political parties as well. This isn't unique to these times either like I said in the previous paragraph. There are very few people that actually vote according to the policies of a political party (as it should be). And this frustrates me to see and this is our soft belly, our weak point as a nation. We really need to fix this problem, the solution I think starts with the politicians themselves. Once they clean up their act, actually start arguing about topics at hand, instead of mudslinging, then this will reflect to the media and the people in general and we as a country can move forward.

Buyugumuz Aziz Sancar, nobel prize winner, said it best:
Genç nesillere tavsiyelerde bulunan Sancar, "Gözünüzü seveyim politika ile uğraşmayın. İlim yapın ve çok çalışın. Politikada kavgalar, değişimler ve çekişmeler bitmez. Bunlarla dikkatinizi dağıtmayın. Kendinizi bilime verin." dedi.

Prof. Dr. Aziz Sancar: Politika ile uğraşmayın, ilim yapın ve çok çalışın

"Politikada kavgalar, değişimler ve çekişmeler bitmez"

t24.com.tr

Translation: Aziz Sancar basicly says not to focus on politiks, but rather to science and working hard.

The root cause of the arguments behind BMC and the speculations regarding tenders, etc is pure politcally based and fueled by propaganda. I can say this for certainty because of SSB's (formerly SSM's track record) and the overall state of the defence industry. How their strategy implemented years ago is now paying out and are sticking to this strategy with discipline. Sure there may have been delays etc, but they never deviated from the main strategy and their goal is to achieve 80%+ domesticity with all strategic products and parts to be domestic or have at least the know-how in order to produce it domestically. In one of your posts, you for instance said that the LAV's of FNSS and Otokar had a higher foreign input in the earlier days, that is correct observation. Because SSB's strategy was to create the final product however way they can (foreign or domestic) and then domesticate each individual part of the final product so the local percentage increases over time. (Milgem was at 30%, now at more than 60% domesticity) SSB has an excelent track record and they have been consistant for years now, I wanna say decades but I have been retrospectively following it since 2007 (Altay tender), and I am not going to doubt what they are saying regarding procurements, tenders, etc. As they haven't shown anything negative that would make me question anything they do.

 

[Spook]

According to this source, the upgrades for Leopard 2's will be done at Arifiye (I cited this source in my previous source as well):

Leopard 2A4 Modernizasyonu Yeni Gelişmeler | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Kara Kuvvetleri’nin Leopard 2A4 Modernizasyonu ihtiyacına yönelik olarak farklı projeler ortaya çıktıkça, çeşitli soru işaretleri de beraberinde geliyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I think some M60's had gone upgrade's at border area's when the cross border operations were happening, if I remember correctly.

There is two plans for Leo upgrade. 1st is add-on armor which is being done in the field. 2nd is more broad upgrade that will be done in factory. Mostly likely will be carried out by FNSS.

M60 Sabra did not receive armor upgrades but electronics and other subsystems. Upgrades were done by Aselsan.

The answer is simple, tenders are made by the SSB according to the needs of Turkish armed forces.
When did SSB express the intention of opening a tactical wheel tender?

Tender will come when BMC is ready.

That's not what I said nor relevant to the topic at hand. It feels like purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote in that paragraph. I eloborated on it the second time I worte it.

You gaved it as an example to increase market share and earn money with after sale from supplying parts etc. The example you gaved, Boeing. A company that does not compete in normal market conditions. They have no competition along with Airbus.

Did they completely cancel it?

Numbers got decreased, orders got replaced with Nurol Yalcins.



Me personally wouldn't care about BMC even with nepotism. If they were not incompetent. They did a terrible getting into military industry despite immense financial and political backing. They used bad excuses. Pricing was never realistic for company without infrastructure. Serial production in 18 months was unrealistic, 18 ay sonra became a meme. more like 56 months at best. Time increased. and with engine embargo, new issue became the engines. Engine was not a justification either as it is was fully government funded. Any company can offer the engines with their platform. During Altay's wait since 2016 until now. They did not improve the tank. The other companies would had improve would and make different variants while waiting for the engine development. Up armored Altay that was displayed wasn't the serial production variant. Leotay moderization was a joke. Probably costs near 3.5 million unrealistic tank price.

Serial production variant is the one displayed on the top the tank carrier at IDEF. I have difficulty understanding because there was two perfectly capable companies to develop, manufacture Altay with their own infrastructure. No delays other waiting for government funded engine development to finish. Tank maintenance factory had more knowledge in designing tracked vehicles than BMC. Companies like Aselsan, Roketsan which does not manufacture vehicles has more experience in developing modernization. Government and yan sanayi have biggest role in increasing nationalization rate majority of parts. They are given incentives by government not BMC, Otokar, FNSS. Again what BMC offer that is so special to get them the tender? Again they had no capabilities to compete under normal conditions. Why include a company in a tender that has nothing to offer? Not even tank manufacturing capable factory. Otokar and FNSS had it. They required small investment as they had their own grown infrastructure. Qatari investment? for same or less capable infrastructure the two other companies have.


You gaved Milgem as example. Have you read Ozden Ornek's story on how much they went through. 3 projects existed before Ada-class and all got canceled one way the other. There wouldn't had been Ada-class today without Ozden Ornek, his book describes rant seekers which use their networks to get try to get tenders in Milgem project and leading to delay Ada-class. Later Ozden Ornek and others got trailed in mock courts. While that was happening pool media close to Erdogan and Feto was posting news supporting the mock trails for political rant. Hehehe no good proof for that too right. Propoganda. Erdogan, AKP has no relations to Kumpas no proof.

 

[Saithan]

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