TR Land Vehicle Programs

Spook

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Turkey is a weapon exporting country.
Having a wide range of products is nothing to complain about.

Yes. Supply Chain is globalizing. You can now buy chassis and build your own armored vehicle on it. Our companies design, manufacturing capabilities very good. Better to offer wide range. I think better comment is rather than everyone trying to jump into one market and offering ok, medicore products, offerings. Companies should pursue strategic partnerships etc. especially companies to supplement each other where they are lacking.

Bit different topic. I wonder why Otokar did not update Akrep with something like Ford commercial chassis based armored truck like Plasan Sandcat.
 

TheInsider

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This is also a good read about the engine issue.


There is no news link as a source. Shadow/secret embargoes are everywhere.
 
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Abdelaziz

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My point is, they have experience with engines. Both in design and production. But, don't expect anything from Koç group on defence with the current regime.

I mean government took Altay project from them. Took milgem production from them. On land vehicles government favored BMC for the reason everybody here know. So, don't expect them to invest in to defence industry.
No one took something from them ..they lost the tenders and couldnt compete ... Others offered better prices and terms ..+ otokar is too linked with the west ... So they dont want to loss its western partners and hence billions ... this is another reason ... Unlike bmc which is going to be more focused on defence field and its supply chains will be less dependent on countries which apply embargos
 
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No one took something from them ..they lost the tenders and couldnt compete ... Others offered better prices and terms ..+ otokar is too linked with the west ... So they dont want to loss its western partners and hence billions ... this is another reason ... Unlike bmc which is going to be more focused on defence field and its supply chains will be less dependent on countries which apply embargos
Sorry but you are lying. I don't understand who do you think you can deceive. Many of members of this site is following the defence industry nearly a decade. I'm mean we know.
 

Abdelaziz

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Sorry but you are lying. I don't understand who do you think you can deceive. Many of members of this site is following the defence industry nearly a decade. I'm mean we know.
You believe what u want to believe ...but this is the truth ...they wont give otokar projects coz its otokar ... They have to cope with ssb strategies and compete ..otherwise they wont get any thing
 
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Sinan

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You believe what u want to believe ...but this is the truth ...they wont give otokar projects coz its otokar ... They have to cope with ssb strategies and compete ..otherwise they wont get any thing
More lies, more lies. Can you back your empty claim with anything? I don't think so, you can only say "What i say is true"

Can you talk about the tender process of Altay, how many times government made the tender than remade the tender till the BMC could get it. Or how German officials bribed Turkish government officials at the time or how Erdoğan cancelled the deal of Koç's RMK marine after they won the tender and building the Milgems because they supported Gezi protests back in 2013.

Or How Erdogan's best friend Ethem Sancak, acquired the BMC which was the property of Mehmet Emin Karamehmet and government seized it. They gave it Ethem Sancak without a tender.

Look, you are just wasting my time. Like, i said majority of this forum are not newbies and we know each other since a for long time. So, you are just making a fool of yourself in front of everyone with your empty lies.

Anyways, please don't tag me. People in this forum began to disgust me with all their lies and their honorless acts, on top of it mods are deleting me posts....sign.
 

Spook

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You believe what u want to believe ...but this is the truth ...they wont give otokar projects coz its otokar ... They have to cope with ssb strategies and compete ..otherwise they wont get any thing

Otokar does join tenders where high nationalization rate is an requirement. FNSS nationalizes subsystems based on SSB requirements, replaces previously foreign subsystems with local. Otokar does offer similar rationalization rate.

Military engine programs are backed by government, tax payer money. FNSS, Otokar or any other company has rights to use the engines. Engine is no excuse. Read my previous posts on Otokar, Koc Holding. It still doesn't change the fact they make great products. BMC was given absurd amount of resources and time. If these resources were given to FNSS or Otokar. We would had one of best vehicles in their class. Why did the resources go to a company that doesn't know what they are doing?

Also relations between Koc family and Erdogan, AKP has an big effect.
 

Lool

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More lies, more lies. Can you back your empty claim with anything? I don't think so, you can only say "What i say is true"

Can you talk about the tender process of Altay, how many times government made the tender than remade the tender till the BMC could get it. Or how German officials bribed Turkish government officials at the time or how Erdoğan cancelled the deal of Koç's RMK marine after they won the tender and building the Milgems because they supported Gezi protests back in 2013.

Or How Erdogan's best friend Ethem Sancak, acquired the BMC which was the property of Mehmet Emin Karamehmet and government seized it. They gave it Ethem Sancak without a tender.

Look, you are just wasting my time. Like, i said majority of this forum are not newbies and we know each other since a for long time. So, you are just making a fool of yourself in front of everyone with your empty lies.

Anyways, please don't tag me. People in this forum began to disgust me with all their lies and their honorless acts, on top of it mods are deleting me posts....sign.
I do agree with @Saithan especially in the tender process
Not everything was transparent during the Altay tender especially
Idk why did they give it to BMC out of all; if they didnt want Otokar to get it; then they could have given it to FNSS
Maybe qatar pressured them into doing so or maybe they wanted to prevent brain drain of the 3000 workers when BMC was going to be shut down (just like with the south african company that closed down and the UAE took all its engineers) or they may have another reason
Politics isnt clean but i do know that other companies could have done altay better


However, iam happy that BMC Power is starting to show some progress
 

Stuka

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Anadolu Savunma Factory in Istanbul, Kartal.

Seyit 8x8 Logistics Vehicles (2 Variants 2 Colors)

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Stuka

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Refueling Vehicles Comparison

- BMC AKTAN 6x6 (Currently Used by TAF)

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- Anadolu Savunma Alternative based on Seyit 8x8

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Philips

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I like how the Anadolu offers more protection, also against a possible fuel explosion. But it'll probably be more expensive.
 

Stuka

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Made a quick Comparison between two similar Armored Logistic Trucks (BMC and TATRA)​


- BMC´s newest Armored 4x4 Logistics Truck and TATRAs equivalent (Anadolu Savunma´s official Partner)
- The Image belongs to me and is from Official Data on each.

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Spook

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Spotted in Izmir, where BMCs Factory is.

BMC Tulga SUV

View attachment 25219 View attachment 25218 View attachment 25221


Looks much improved from first prototype. If they can make a modern tactical/utility vehicle to replace Defenders. That would be good. Also I don't see a need for this concept considering it supposed to replace trucks of internal security personel. What advantage it gives over armored Toyota? I can write many reasons. Toyota is cheaper, a lot more reliable, can be armored to similar protection levels. A lot less distinctive.
 

Inspector_spacetime

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More lies, more lies. Can you back your empty claim with anything? I don't think so, you can only say "What i say is true"

Can you talk about the tender process of Altay, how many times government made the tender than remade the tender till the BMC could get it. Or how German officials bribed Turkish government officials at the time or how Erdoğan cancelled the deal of Koç's RMK marine after they won the tender and building the Milgems because they supported Gezi protests back in 2013.

Or How Erdogan's best friend Ethem Sancak, acquired the BMC which was the property of Mehmet Emin Karamehmet and government seized it. They gave it Ethem Sancak without a tender.

Look, you are just wasting my time. Like, i said majority of this forum are not newbies and we know each other since a for long time. So, you are just making a fool of yourself in front of everyone with your empty lies.

Anyways, please don't tag me. People in this forum began to disgust me with all their lies and their honorless acts, on top of it mods are deleting me posts....sign.

BMC wasn't seized by the government. BMC went bankrupt and the state saved the company from completely vanishing. Cukurova holding gave some of its assets (inlcuding BMC) to TMSF in order to settle its debts. TMSF opened a tender to sell BMC and eventually Ethem Sancak was the winner of the tender, he was the only participant iirc. The state intervened on BMC because it is a strategic company for our country. BMC had many employees who couldn't get paid for months, so eventually Cukurova holding and TMSF came to an agreement and BMC was saved. Otokar, FNSS and many more companies hold strategic value. Even Durmazlar, a company that makes trams and no defence products (afaik) is a strategic company for the country.

RMK Marine tender (which I was upset about as well by the way, because of potential delays in the Milgem project) was cancelled because one of the other shipyards filed a complaint. Then the government investigated it and eventually cancelled it. The amount of Milgems to be purchased changed as well so the whole roadmap for the Milgem project changed. The original tender included 6 Milgem's, which would've made 8 Ada class Milgem's in total, but plans have changed in the mean time and they left it at 4 Ada class Milgems. 2 Milgems were already developed or in development at Istanbul shipyard. Source: https://turkishnavy.net/2013/08/27/troubled-waters-for-the-milgem-project/

That only leaves 2 more ADA class ships to be developed with the new roadmap, it is probable that SSB didn't deem it necessary to open a tender for only 2 ADA class ships and opted to have them built as Istanbul Shipyard. The current Milgem's in development are the bigger I-class Milgems. I do hope they will delegate the shipbuilding to other shipyards though, so that the know how will spread to other shipyards and they in turn can innovate on that know-how.

The Altay tender went as follows, Otokar had the right to give an exclusive bid to Milgem regarding serial production. SSB declined Otokar's offer and decided to open a tender in which they invited Otokar, BMC and FNSS. Eventually BMC won the tender, reportedly BMC gave the lowest bid of 3.5 million per tank, while it's nearest competitor offered around 7 million. By the way, SSB doesn't need to remake tenders until their favorite company wins. SSB isn't obligated to choose the lowest bidder, there are many other factors involved with regards to choosing a sootable company. On top of that, SSB isn't obligated to open a tender process at all. If BMC was favoritized over the other companies it would've just given the project to a company without the process of going through a tender. Back in 2007, the tender for the research & development of Altay went to Otokar, eventhough FNSS was the more suitable company at the time (looking from the outside), but we don't know what the executives know and decided to go with Otokar and it was a good decision by them because Otokar delivered.

The reason these discussions drag on so needlessly and there being so much mudslinging, whether its on Turkish media, this forum or back on PKD forum, is because the majority of us have partisan opinions. We tend to believe anything that is inline with our confirmation biases. So we believe there is foul play and corruption involved because we want to believe it, because of our love or hate for certian political parties, leaders and/or ideologies. In other words, if we read something negative about a poltician we hate we tend to believe it, but if we read something positive about a politician we hate, we dismiss it as being false or a lie. Same goes the otherway around.

No one took something from them ..they lost the tenders and couldnt compete ... Others offered better prices and terms ..+ otokar is too linked with the west ... So they dont want to loss its western partners and hence billions ... this is another reason ... Unlike bmc which is going to be more focused on defence field and its supply chains will be less dependent on countries which apply embargos
That is SSB's strategy, being less dependent of other countries. BMC's strategy is, according to my own observations, is to achieve more market share and competeby offering the more cost effective options. This is something that Otokar and FNSS can't compete in, it seems. I think BMC gets this advantage from the Qatar'i investments. BMC is willing to make less profits, or even make a loss, in order to gain more market share. Once they gain the desired market share they can start focussing on protecting that market share and focusing more on profit. However, BMC did recently get a new CEO, I don't know if they will re-adjust their strategy from here on forward though.
 

Spook

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BMC wasn't seized by the government. BMC went bankrupt and the state saved the company from completely vanishing. Cukurova holding gave some of its assets (inlcuding BMC) to TMSF in order to settle its debts. TMSF opened a tender to sell BMC and eventually Ethem Sancak was the winner of the tender, he was the only participant iirc. The state intervened on BMC because it is a strategic company for our country. BMC had many employees who couldn't get paid for months, so eventually Cukurova holding and TMSF came to an agreement and BMC was saved. Otokar, FNSS and many more companies hold strategic value. Even Durmazlar, a company that makes trams and no defence products (afaik) is a strategic company for the country.

RMK Marine tender (which I was upset about as well by the way, because of potential delays in the Milgem project) was cancelled because one of the other shipyards filed a complaint. Then the government investigated it and eventually cancelled it. The amount of Milgems to be purchased changed as well so the whole roadmap for the Milgem project changed. The original tender included 6 Milgem's, which would've made 8 Ada class Milgem's in total, but plans have changed in the mean time and they left it at 4 Ada class Milgems. 2 Milgems were already developed or in development at Istanbul shipyard. Source: https://turkishnavy.net/2013/08/27/troubled-waters-for-the-milgem-project/

That only leaves 2 more ADA class ships to be developed with the new roadmap, it is probable that SSB didn't deem it necessary to open a tender for only 2 ADA class ships and opted to have them built as Istanbul Shipyard. The current Milgem's in development are the bigger I-class Milgems. I do hope they will delegate the shipbuilding to other shipyards though, so that the know how will spread to other shipyards and they in turn can innovate on that know-how.

The Altay tender went as follows, Otokar had the right to give an exclusive bid to Milgem regarding serial production. SSB declined Otokar's offer and decided to open a tender in which they invited Otokar, BMC and FNSS. Eventually BMC won the tender, reportedly BMC gave the lowest bid of 3.5 million per tank, while it's nearest competitor offered around 7 million. By the way, SSB doesn't need to remake tenders until their favorite company wins. SSB isn't obligated to choose the lowest bidder, there are many other factors involved with regards to choosing a sootable company. On top of that, SSB isn't obligated to open a tender process at all. If BMC was favoritized over the other companies it would've just given the project to a company without the process of going through a tender. Back in 2007, the tender for the research & development of Altay went to Otokar, eventhough FNSS was the more suitable company at the time (looking from the outside), but we don't know what the executives know and decided to go with Otokar and it was a good decision by them because Otokar delivered.

The reason these discussions drag on so needlessly and there being so much mudslinging, whether its on Turkish media, this forum or back on PKD forum, is because the majority of us have partisan opinions. We tend to believe anything that is inline with our confirmation biases. So we believe there is foul play and corruption involved because we want to believe it, because of our love or hate for certian political parties, leaders and/or ideologies. In other words, if we read something negative about a poltician we hate we tend to believe it, but if we read something positive about a politician we hate, we dismiss it as being false or a lie. Same goes the otherway around.


That is SSB's strategy, being less dependent of other countries. BMC's strategy is, according to my own observations, is to achieve more market share and competeby offering the more cost effective options. This is something that Otokar and FNSS can't compete in, it seems. I think BMC gets this advantage from the Qatar'i investments. BMC is willing to make less profits, or even make a loss, in order to gain more market share. Once they gain the desired market share they can start focussing on protecting that market share and focusing more on profit. However, BMC did recently get a new CEO, I don't know if they will re-adjust their strategy from here on forward though.

Just go around the fact that AKP is an business (organizational capital) party. Yes, Sancak is not close to Erdogan. There is no nepotism.

Sancak's earned most of their income from real estate. Sancak having no experience in heavy industries was offered into that position as he was trusted. He was given immense political backing and funding as a guarantee. This is a very difficult industry to make money. No private company, capital seriously invest without a guarantee from government. Sancak getting out of this making money without government support is not realistic. The problem is that there is no accountability, there has to be as government and taxpayer money is involved. Where is annual reports, how the money is being used? If government had to be involved this much for the company to survive, why is it's board members are individuals with no background in this industry that are closely tied to ruling political party?

3.5 wasn't realistic number. Even for a company with a factory.

Also tenders got a lot less transparent in general
 
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Inspector_spacetime

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Just go around the fact that AKP is an business (organizational capital) party. Yes, Sancak is not close to Erdogan. There is no nepotism.

Sancak's earned most of their income from real estate. Sancak having no experience in heavy industries was offered into that position as he was trusted. He was given immense political backing and funding as a guarantee. This is a very difficult industry to make money. No private company, capital seriously invest without a guarantee from government. Sancak getting out of this making money without government support is not realistic. The problem is that there is no accountability, there has to be as government and taxpayer money is involved. Where is annual reports, how the money is being used? If government had to be involved this much for the company to survive, why is it's board members are individuals with no background in this industry that are closely tied to ruling political party?

3.5 wasn't realistic number. Even for a company with a factory.

Also tenders got a lot less transparent in general
Sancak wasn't offered into that position, he was the sole contender in the TMSF's tender for BMC.
BMC's funding came mostly from Qatar, this allowed them to take extra risks (relative to its direct competition). BMC isn't obligated to publish its annual reports, because it is not a publicly traded company. BMC only has to answer to its board of directors and investors. Otokar is a publicly traded company (on BIST), so they are obligated to publish annual reports since it's investors consists of big investors as well as small investors, people like you and me.

Sancak is an ivestor in the case of BMC. Investors don't need to have experience in specific industries. Marketing and business models and theories apply to all (if not most industries) and strategies are defined, created and implemented according to these theories and business models. Investors and CEO's don't need to learn and/or understand the intricacies of each and every business. They delegate tasks and hire the talent accordingly in order to run their business. Within the business, middle management writes reports about both internally, externally, micro and macro environment and decision makers and executive boards make their decisions according to these internal reports and presentations. In other words, investors and/or executive board members do not necessarily have to understand the business itself, they just have to understand how a business is run and recognize opportunities in the macro trend, as well as surround themselves with the talent that know the intricacies of the business they are in. Take angel investors for example, these types of investors have capital and are looking to invest in risky startups, these types of investors do not know anything about programming and writing code for instance, but they still invest in startups because they believe in the talent and potential of the people within these startups. That is what entrepenourship and doing business is. There are never guarantee's in business, be it from the government or political. Investors see an oppertunity and invest accordingly and investors (good one's at least) are fully aware of the risks and know very well that investments don't always pay out.

And yes, there is no accountability, that is why politicians, media and people in general are really easy with mudsling and accuse others of corruption, thievery and foul play just because its suits one's agenda.
(ulke olarak yumusak karnimiz, birbirimize guvenemez olduk, siyaset camur atmakla ibaret, ulke menfaati degil parti menfaati priorite ediliyor. Bize dusmanca tavir takinan ulkelerde bunun farkinda ve bize karsi bunu kullaniyorlar. Mesela Die Welle, Alman bir medya'nin ne isi var Turkce haber yapmaya, cunku iktidarin yaptigi bazi seyler Almanya'nin cikarlarina karsit oldugu icin, ve ona gore Turk kamu oyunu etkilemek icin (buna 'manufactering consent' denir). Yarin baska bir iktidar gelirse ayni seyi yapar, yani bu Erdogan, AKP veya CHP ile ibaret degil, tavirlarini cikarlarina gore degistiriyorlar. Bu ayni tavri mesela CHP iktidar olursa yine takinir. Cunku guclu Turkiye, Almanya'nin cikarina degil, bir baska bir rekabitci bir ulkenin siyasi tiyatroya cikmasi onlarin cikarina degil. Onun icin Almanya TR'nin dusmanlarina sahip cikiyor, Fetoculer mesela. Bu ayni sey'i ABD (FOX), Ingiltere (Independent Turkce) vesayre gibi ulkeler icinde diyebiliriz. Kucucuk Hollanda bile TR'ye karsi propaganda yapiyor. Bize vatandas olarak boyle tur oyunlara kanmamak dusuyor, butun sirket ve kurumlarimiza sahip cikmamiz gerekiyor. Laflarimiza dikkat etmemiz gerekiyor. Bunu yapmaz isek, Nuri Demirag olaylari, Devrim ve Anadol arabalari, vb. tekrar edebilir).
 

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