TR Marine Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

[Sinan]

I can't understand why having small military outposts on Greek islands is considered a threat...

Because Greece is breaking the Lausanne and Paris treaties.

 

[Melkor]

If we look at the case of the southeastern Aegean islands, collectively known as the Dodecanese, they are not held accountable to the Lausanne Treaty as Greece did not achieve sovereignty over the islands until more than two decades after the Treaty was signed. Instead, the Dodecanese are held accountable to the Paris Treaty, that Turkey is not a signatory of. Therefore, Turkey’s insistence on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese constitutes a “res inter alios acta.” According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries, meaning that Turkey cannot demand that the Dodecanese islands be

Refer to point 2 which was insisted by Turkey according to Turkish sources. There’s the consent you need to satisfy article 34 in TLOT.

 

[Sinan]

The claim that Greece’s islands must be demilitarized, as continuously repeated by Turkey, is a manipulation of the Lausanne Treaty. For this reason, Athens will continually shut down any discussions of demilitarization. If we look at the case of the southeastern Aegean islands, collectively known as the Dodecanese, they are not held accountable to the Lausanne Treaty as Greece did not achieve sovereignty over the islands until more than two decades after the Treaty was signed. Instead, the Dodecanese are held accountable to the Paris Treaty, that Turkey is not a signatory of. Therefore, Turkey’s insistence on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese constitutes a “res inter alios acta.” According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries, meaning that Turkey cannot demand that the Dodecanese islands be demilitarized.

In the case of Lesvos, Chios, Samos and Ikaria, the Lausanne Treaty makes no mention of these islands having to be demilitarized, but rather there can be no naval bases and no army fortifications. In addition, there can be no professional military presence besides the National Guard, a volunteer corps, which Greece has adhered to.

With regards to Limnos and Samothrace, the demilitarization of these islands, along with the demilitarization of the Turkish-controlled Dardanelle and Bosporus Straits, as well as the Sea of Marmara and the Turkish-controlled Imvros (Gokceada), Tenedos (Bozcaada) and Rabbit Islands (Tavcan), the 1923 Lausanne Treaty on the Straits stipulated that these areas of both Greece and Turkey must be demilitarized. However, this was annulled by the , which, as it categorically states, replaces in its entirety the Lausanne Treaty regarding militarization. Greece’s right to militarize Limnos and Samothrace was recognized by Turkish Ambassador in Athens at the time, Roussen Esref, with a letter sent to Greek Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas on May 6, 1936. The Turkish government reiterated this position when the then Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Rustu Aras, in his address to the Turkish National Assembly recognized Greece’s legal right to deploy troops on Limnos and Samothrace, with the following statement:

“The provisions pertaining to the islands of Limnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbor and friendly country Greece and were demilitarized in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure.”

In exchange, Turkey was able to militarize its islands, the Marmara Sea and the Straits, that they were not able to do due to the Lausanne Treaty.

This is a very irresponsible statement from Greek MFA.

Article of Lausanne gaves no such interpetion. (I posted the specific article in this forum once)

Soverignty of these Islands given to Greece by condition of them being demilitarized. When Greece militarize these Islands, then it would open soverignty questions about those Islands from our perspective.

 

[Sinan]

View attachment 15648 Refer to point 2 which was insisted by Turkey according to Turkish sources. There’s the consent you need to satisfy article 34 in TLOT.

This is Paris treaty, we are not signatory of that agreement. It doesn't bind Greece or Turkey against each other.

 

[Melkor]

This is Paris treaty, we are not signatory of that agreement. It doesn't bind Greece or Turkey against each other.

From what I’ve been able to gather, the demilitarized requirement for the 12 Islands was included in the Paris treaty due to Turkey’s insistence and taking into consideration an earlier agreement from 1932 between Italy and Turkey. Turkey had rights to be party to the treaty but chose not to due to Russian pressure on other matters - particularly an expiring peace treaty. Therefore, although not a signatory, Turkeys terms were applied which means that the Paris treaty gave consent to Turkey and therefore Turkey has grounds to make demands.

 

[Sinan]

From what I’ve been able to gather, the demilitarized requirement for the 12 Islands was included in the Paris treaty due to Turkey’s insistence and taking into consideration an earlier agreement from 1932 between Italy and Turkey. Turkey had rights to be party to the treaty but chose not to due to Russian pressure on other matters - particularly an expiring peace treaty. Therefore, although not a signatory, Turkeys terms were applied which means that the Paris treaty gave consent to Turkey and therefore Turkey has grounds to make demands.

This is our interpetration and has no legal basis.

Not very different from what Greece saying about militarization of the islands.

 

[Costin84]

I can't understand why having small military outposts on Greek islands is considered a threat...

It's not. An outpost with 50 soldiers can never be a threat to Turkey but it gives them an excuse to complain.As for the outrageous claim that Greek military vessels can't visit/patrol their own national islands....

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369335835976495108

• I hope that Turkey becomes a part of the East Mediterranean Gas Forum.
• We are ready to cooperate with Turkey. We want to see Turkey as a regional partner. - Israeli Energy Minister Steinitz
  
  
  

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369335835976495108

• I hope that Turkey becomes a part of the East Mediterranean Gas Forum.
• We are ready to cooperate with Turkey. We want to see Turkey as a regional partner. - Israeli Energy Minister Steinitz
  
  

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369331832198684676

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369188933607768064

They're lying. They still want to seize the Turkish continental shelf.

 

[Glass🚬]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369331832198684676

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369188933607768064

They're lying. They still want to seize the Turkish continental shelf.

They are just playing around. They fully understand that if we are against something its not simply not going to happen and right now we are pissed off and will torpedo any plan to develop the resources in the east med.

 

[Blackeyes90]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369335835976495108

• I hope that Turkey becomes a part of the East Mediterranean Gas Forum.
• We are ready to cooperate with Turkey. We want to see Turkey as a regional partner. - Israeli Energy Minister Steinitz
  

Turkey cant be part of the East Mediterranean Gas Forum as is. Greek Cyprus Administration is a part of it. If we join the EMGF now , it would mean that we recognise Greek Cyprus Administration as a sovereign nation. And thats never gonna happen. If Turkey is going to be part of this , there must be a arrangement regarding Cyprus as a whole (Inluding the Turkish Side ) . Israelis know this. I expect something like that to happen in the future.

 

[Ardabas34]

I hate Israel for all its hypocrisies.
Look at how they scream in the smallest seizure of their rights with that Afrodite portion.

But they expect Turkey to completely suck it up and shut up and be a ''good boy'' and listen to them when it comes to extortion of its rights.

That forum is a trap and every single person in Turkey knows this. Turkey attending there would just give legitimacy to Greece. There is absolutely no point at doing that.
We will continue to be patient, we will continue to make them understand without us there is no solution. We will continue to drive this to the skid. They will eventually going to have to come to our door.

 

[akrepon]

I hate Israel for all its hypocrisies.
Look at how they scream in the smallest seizure of their rights with that Afrodite portion.

But they expect Turkey to completely suck it up and shut up and be a ''good boy'' and listen to them when it comes to extortion of its rights.

That forum is a trap and every single person in Turkey knows this. Turkey attending there would just give legitimacy to Greece. There is absolutely no point at doing that.
We will continue to be patient, we will continue to make them understand without us there is no solution. We will continue to drive this to the skid. They will eventually going to have to come to our door.

It is also very interesting that they declare this after Turkish foreign minister said that Turkey can sign an eez with Egypt. This alone tells us that it is Israel is trying to say, I see your game I play along. It is absolutely a trick as you put it like Turkey is trying to do as well by targeting Egyptian people. In Israel's case they try to create a public opinion by saying look we are ready for you guys please join us. Some shortsighted people are already welcoming this. But Turkish state isn't fool.

 

[Ardabas34]

It is also very interesting that they declare this after Turkish foreign minister said that Turkey can sign an eez with Egypt. This alone tells us that it is Israel is trying to say, I see your game I play along. It is absolutely a trick as you put it like Turkey is trying to do as well by targeting Egyptian people. In Israel's case they try to create a public opinion by saying look we are ready for you guys please join us. Some shortsighted people are already welcoming this. But Turkish state isn't fool.

Also it is to show Turkey as the ''uncompromising one'' within the international area.
You are totally right about playing on the emotions of the Turkish public opinion.
We should put our retired generals/ambassadors on TV programmes and also use the twitter accounts to tell the people the real deal here.

 

[selim]

Turkey cant be part of the East Mediterranean Gas Forum as is. Greek Cyprus Administration is a part of it. If we join the EMGF now , it would mean that we recognise Greek Cyprus Administration as a sovereign nation. And thats never gonna happen. If Turkey is going to be part of this , there must be a arrangement regarding Cyprus as a whole (Inluding the Turkish Side ) . Israelis know this. I expect something like that to happen in the future.

Charles Michel and Erdogan said there shall be an Eastern Mediteranean conference with participation of KKTC.
With Greeks within the EU there won't be such an EU-sponsored Eastern-Mediteranean conference, the Greeks can threaten to veto/block other EU policy decisions unless Germany finally plays hardball with Greeks. Greeks already played that game in previous EU meetings when it came to Belarus sanctions.
I don't think EU is too happy with some Gas Forum located in Cairo, and Greeks do some UAE/Saudi/Egypt/Israel deals which are very risky foreign-policy moves by Greece as Greece (and by extension the EU) is sucked into Mid-East quagmire once shit hits the fan. Greece can't stand its own groundand will inevitably run to EU.

There's no voting constellation in EU to either sanction Turkey or deepen relations with Turkey with a modernized customs union or visa-free travel.
Yet, there are major countries like Germany who want EU-Turkey relations to move forward. In refugee crisis Merkel made some promises to Erdogan, which Germany couldn't deliver so far.

If this whole EastMed / enhanced Customs Union / Visa-free travel is not resolved by 2023 at the lastest Turkey will probably annex KKTC.
If Erdogan can fight for Karabakh he can fight for KKTC as well, especially with Tatar in power. Playing nationalist drum right before 2023 elections will also secure him next term.

 

[selim]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369331832198684676

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369188933607768064

They're lying. They still want to seize the Turkish continental shelf.

There are lots of analysts which are basically saying: "Normalize relations, then do Kumbaja-Hallelulja and at some point cooperate in East-Med".
Why Turkey should normalize with any of them without them accepting "Mavi Vatan" ?
No normalization with Israel or Egypt without full acceptance of Mavi Vatan as a pre-condition.
We now have a period of confrontation behind us. Now waters are being tested if resistance has been broken.

 

[Ryder]

If erdogan cant fight for the rights of turkish cypriots his career is dead as gone no matter what because the fallout would be too big to ignore.

 

[CAN_TR]

Greece arms up the Islands and then wonders why tensions grow, are you serious?

The Aegean Army which is criticized by Greece as offensive threat from Turkey is a result of Greek militarization and the statement here given that "some soldiers on those Island is not a threat" is weak, with no base because militarizing those Islands and violating the signed treaties would give Turkey the right to question the sovereignity of those Islands.

 

[King_West]

Greece arms up the Islands and then wonders why tensions grow, are you serious?

The Aegean Army which is criticized by Greece as offensive threat from Turkey is a result of Greek militarization and the statement here given that "some soldiers on those Island is not a threat" is weak, with no base because militarizing those Islands and violating the signed treaties would give Turkey the right to question the sovereignity of those Islands.

And the US is buffing up Greece by providing them with cheap weapons etc to be able to counter the growing Turkish defence. Question is: who can keep it up? Turkey or Greece. And for how long.

 

[GoatsMilk]

And the US is buffing up Greece by providing them with cheap weapons etc to be able to counter the growing Turkish defence. Question is: who can keep it up? Turkey or Greece. And for how long.

More importantly which nation has the resolve to actually fight. Turkey is already fighting in many theatres, do the greeks have the resolve to fight? greeks much like the armenians talk a big game, but we saw in war the armenians broke quick.