TR Marine Mavi Vatan (Blue Homeland)

Test7

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There is the possibility of safe passage in the territorial waters of Greece according to the Law of the Sea. I do not think that the display of a flag by the ships passing through the territorial waters is a sign of aggression. I am clearly talking about territorial waters, not an Exclusive Economic Zone because the Aegean is considered a riparian area.
This applies to merchant ship. When naval ships pass through territorial waters, they get permission from the relevant country. If permission is not given, this will be a violation. I would like to remind you of the Kardak cliffs. As a said before, if Turkish military and civil ships are moored in port, they will be violating.
 

Foulgrim

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This applies to merchant ship. When naval ships pass through territorial waters, they get permission from the relevant country. If permission is not given, this will be a violation. I would like to remind you of the Kardak cliffs. As a said before, if Turkish military and civil ships are moored in port, they will be violating.
You are not right, this also applies to warships.
Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article:
"The ships and aircraft of all nations, including warships, auxiliaries, and military aircraft, enjoy the right of unimpeded transit passage in such straits and their approaches. Submarines are free to transit international straits submerged since that is their normal mode of operation."
Transit passage
 

Test7

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You are not right, this also applies to warships.
Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article:
"The ships and aircraft of all nations, including warships, auxiliaries, and military aircraft, enjoy the right of unimpeded transit passage in such straits and their approaches. Submarines are free to transit international straits submerged since that is their normal mode of operation."
Transit passage
The ships and aircraft of all nations, including warships, auxiliaries, and military aircraft, enjoy the right of unimpeded transit passage in such straits and their approaches. Submarines are free to transit international straits submerged since that is their normal mode of operation.[3] Transit passage rights do not extend to any state's internal waters within a strait.[1] The legal regime of transit passage exists for all straits used for international navigation where there is not a simple alternative route, and where there is no long-standing international convention governing the straits such as for the Danish Straits, the Turkish Straits, and the Strait of Magellan. The major international trade routes of the Strait of Gibraltar, Dover Strait, Strait of Hormuz, Bab-el-Mandeb and Strait of Malacca are covered by the transit passage provisions.[3]

As you mentioned, this applies to the straits..
 

Foulgrim

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The ships and aircraft of all nations, including warships, auxiliaries, and military aircraft, enjoy the right of unimpeded transit passage in such straits and their approaches. Submarines are free to transit international straits submerged since that is their normal mode of operation.[3] Transit passage rights do not extend to any state's internal waters within a strait.[1] The legal regime of transit passage exists for all straits used for international navigation where there is not a simple alternative route, and where there is no long-standing international convention governing the straits such as for the Danish Straits, the Turkish Straits, and the Strait of Magellan. The major international trade routes of the Strait of Gibraltar, Dover Strait, Strait of Hormuz, Bab-el-Mandeb and Strait of Malacca are covered by the transit passage provisions.[3]

As you mentioned, this applies to the straits..
This provision could therefore be applied in places where sea straits are created between the territorial waters of Greece and Turkey in the eastern Aegean. For example, on the islands of Chios, Lesvos, Samos, Kos, Simi and Rhodes, a transit passage could be created.
 

Nilgiri

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This is not possible. It covers all islands if 12 miles declared. As I said before, Greek coast guard boats can ask for passports from people swimming on the Turkish coast. If you put your feet in the sea, it will be a violation. Even if Turkish military and civil ships are moored in port, they will be violating.

For distances less than 2X (where X is delimiting distance declared for the 2 sides) i.e if less than 24 miles between turkish land (coastline or island) and greek land (coastline or island).... it will instead be the actual distance divided by 2.

So say if the distance is just 10 miles, the sea water boundary will be 5 miles (running in between bifurcating basically) rather than measured as 12 mile (or 6 mile) basis from just one country.

So ships in harbour of one country will not suddenly be in water of the other just by larger territorial declaration (existing or planned)....as different convention applies for close quarter situation like is often found in aegean coastline of turkey with Greece...where it is simply bifurcation norm for such passages and bodies.

Actually, this is a stillborn demand. I do not think this is a issue worth discussing. If Greece could realize this claim, it would have declared by now. I think they know very well that this cannot happen.

I think they know too, it is matter of them applying pressure and see how Turkey responds.

Given relations have always been tense and given the water territory and access at stake, Turkey must stand its ground on the convention status quo up to this point.

Greece cannot enforce UNCLOS cause on Turkey if Turkey is not member of it. UN and thus ICJ has no implementation jursidiction over this anyway (even among signatory parties).

The matter must be handled by negotiations peacefully between the two sides.
 

Foulgrim

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Good will to exist and everything is done. If Turkey does not vote for the Law of the Sea, then there is no point in analyzing the whole issue. Greece speaks according to the laws deriving from International Law, Turkey speaks with its own law! In such a situation, it will be difficult for the two states to find a common point of contact.
 

Test7

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Greece speaks according to the laws deriving from International Law

Dear@Foulgrim, like Paris Peace Treaties, 1947 and Lausanne Peace Treaty??


a) 1913 Treaty of London : The future of the Eastern Aegean Islands have been left to the decision of Six Powers in Article 5 of the Treaty of London.

b) 1914 Decision of Six Powers: The islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria and others under Greek occupation as of 1914 were ceded to Greece by the 1914 Decision of Six Powers (Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary) on the condition that they should be kept demilitarized.

c) 1923 Lausanne Peace Treaty: In Article 12 of the Lausanne Peace Treaty the 1914 Decision of Six Powers was confirmed.

Article 13 of the Laussane Treaty stipulated the modalities of the demilitarization for the islands of Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria. It imposed certain restrictions related to the presence of military forces and establishment of fortifications which Greece undertook as a contractual obligation to observe stemming from this Treaty.

The Convention of the Turkish Straits annexed to the Laussanne Treaty further defined the demilitarized status of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. It stipulated a stricter regime for these islands, due to their vital importance to the security of Turkey by virtue of their close proximity to the Turkish Straits.

d) 1936 Montreux Convention: The Montreux Convention did not bring any change to the demilitarized status of these Islands. With the Protocol annexed to the said Convention, the demilitarized status of the Turkish Straits has been lifted to ensure the security of Turkey. In the Montreux Convention there is no clause regarding the militarization of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace.

e) 1947 Paris Peace Treaty: The demilitarized status of Eastern Aegean Islands was once again confirmed in 1947 long after the Lausanne Treaty. The "Dodecanese Islands" namely Stampalia, Rhodes, Calki, Scarpanto, Casos, Piscopis, Nisiros, Calimnos, Leros, Patmos, Lipsos, Symi, Cos and Castellorizo were ceded to Greece on the explicit condition that they must remain demilitarized (Annex 6).


ARTICLE 12.

The decision taken on the 13th February, 1914, by the Conference of London, in virtue of Articles 5 of the Treaty of London of the 17th-30th May, 1913, and 15 of the Treaty of Athens of the 1st-14th November, 1913, which decision was communicated to the Greek Government on the 13th February, 1914, regarding the sovereignty of Greece over the islands of the Eastern Mediterranean, other than the islands of Imbros, Tenedos and Rabbit Islands, particularly the islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria, is confirmed, subject to the provisions of the present Treaty respecting the islands placed under the sovereigntyof Italy which form the subject of Article 15.

Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty.


ARTICLE 13.

With a view to ensuring the maintenance of peace, the Greek Government undertakes to observe the following restrictions in the islands of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria:

(I) No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.

(2) Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.

(3) The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory.

 
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İf Greece didn't claim rights over all international waters of the sea, there wouldn't be any problem. Yesterday 3 miles, today 6 , tomorrow 12 miles and one year later give me the key of the Aegean sea. For us 12 miles unacceptable and our neighbor should respect it.
 

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Dear@Foulgrim, like Paris Peace Treaties, 1947 and Lausanne Peace Treaty??


a) 1913 Treaty of London : The future of the Eastern Aegean Islands have been left to the decision of Six Powers in Article 5 of the Treaty of London.

b) 1914 Decision of Six Powers: The islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria and others under Greek occupation as of 1914 were ceded to Greece by the 1914 Decision of Six Powers (Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary) on the condition that they should be kept demilitarized.

c) 1923 Lausanne Peace Treaty: In Article 12 of the Lausanne Peace Treaty the 1914 Decision of Six Powers was confirmed.

Article 13 of the Laussane Treaty stipulated the modalities of the demilitarization for the islands of Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria. It imposed certain restrictions related to the presence of military forces and establishment of fortifications which Greece undertook as a contractual obligation to observe stemming from this Treaty.

The Convention of the Turkish Straits annexed to the Laussanne Treaty further defined the demilitarized status of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. It stipulated a stricter regime for these islands, due to their vital importance to the security of Turkey by virtue of their close proximity to the Turkish Straits.

d) 1936 Montreux Convention: The Montreux Convention did not bring any change to the demilitarized status of these Islands. With the Protocol annexed to the said Convention, the demilitarized status of the Turkish Straits has been lifted to ensure the security of Turkey. In the Montreux Convention there is no clause regarding the militarization of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace.

e) 1947 Paris Peace Treaty: The demilitarized status of Eastern Aegean Islands was once again confirmed in 1947 long after the Lausanne Treaty. The "Dodecanese Islands" namely Stampalia, Rhodes, Calki, Scarpanto, Casos, Piscopis, Nisiros, Calimnos, Leros, Patmos, Lipsos, Symi, Cos and Castellorizo were ceded to Greece on the explicit condition that they must remain demilitarized (Annex 6).


ARTICLE 12.

The decision taken on the 13th February, 1914, by the Conference of London, in virtue of Articles 5 of the Treaty of London of the 17th-30th May, 1913, and 15 of the Treaty of Athens of the 1st-14th November, 1913, which decision was communicated to the Greek Government on the 13th February, 1914, regarding the sovereignty of Greece over the islands of the Eastern Mediterranean, other than the islands of Imbros, Tenedos and Rabbit Islands, particularly the islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria, is confirmed, subject to the provisions of the present Treaty respecting the islands placed under the sovereigntyof Italy which form the subject of Article 15.

Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty.


ARTICLE 13.

With a view to ensuring the maintenance of peace, the Greek Government undertakes to observe the following restrictions in the islands of Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria:

(I) No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.

(2) Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.

(3) The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory.

I know the history of demilitarization of the islands of the Eastern Aegean and you are right about that. Greece has militarized the islands illegally, but this decision has been taken due to the growing military power of Turkey. See the landing ships that the Turks have or the ballistic missiles that they have off the coast of Asia Minor. Especially the landing ships(LST) that Turkey has are too many. Greece cannot leave the Greek islands near the Turkish shores unprotected because then a Turkish amphibious operation on one of these islands would be very easy to do.
 

Test7

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Dear @Foulgrim , Please don't think that you are being mobbed here by Turks. We are not a platform where people easily insult and swear at each other like other forums. We defend our theses in a civilized way. You can write all your theses comfortably on DefenceHub ;)
 

Foulgrim

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Dear @Foulgrim , Please don't think that you are being mobbed here by Turks. We are not a platform where people easily insult and swear at each other like other forums. We defend our theses in a civilized way. You can write all your theses comfortably on DefenceHub ;)
I do not think I have or had any problem expressing my thoughts on the forum :)
 

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I know the history of demilitarization of the islands of the Eastern Aegean and you are right about that. Greece has militarized the islands illegally, but this decision has been taken due to the growing military power of Turkey. See the landing ships that the Turks have or the ballistic missiles that they have off the coast of Asia Minor. Especially the landing ships(LST) that Turkey has are too many. Greece cannot leave the Greek islands near the Turkish shores unprotected because then a Turkish amphibious operation on one of these islands would be very easy to do.

Its still easy to do.

If Turks move on the islands that come off her continental shelf there is nothing greece can to do to stop it.

But you have behaved illegally and irresponsibly by arming those islands. By arming those islands you force Turkey to consider the annexation of those islands. My feeling is those islands will return to Turkish hands within the next 50 years.
 

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Its still easy to do.

If Turks move on the islands that come off her continental shelf there is nothing greece can to do to stop it.

But you have behaved illegally and irresponsibly by arming those islands. By arming those islands you force Turkey to consider the annexation of those islands. My feeling is those islands will return to Turkish hands within the next 50 years.
Unfortunately you are right about that. The militarization of the islands is a wrong practice that Greece follows in order to be able to defend its territorial integrity. Maybe there should be an agreement on the demilitarization of the islands of the Eastern Aegean along with the coasts of Asia Minor so that Greece also feels safe. It is a view that could be on the negotiating table of the two countries. As for the occupation of the islands by Turkey in 50 years from today, I think it is an exaggerated view. In the 21st century, any controversy is resolved at the diplomatic table. If you look at things from a military point of view, then the occupation of the islands of the Eastern Aegean by Turkey could take place even now. I do not think there is any comparison between the two countries in weapons systems and everyone knows that. Gone are the days when Greece focused on its weapons systems with a better balance of power. Unfortunately, it seems that there is no political leadership that puts forward a strategic plan for the development of weapons systems of domestic origin.
 
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GoatsMilk

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Its a crooked logic, to defend your territorial integrity you break legal agreements and arm those islands which threatens Turkish territorial integrity. By breaking these agreements you show a hostile attitude, now if Turkey annexes those islands to protect her territorial integrity Turkey would have more justification. If greeks cannot even keep to current legal agreements its foolish to think they will come to new mutual ones with Turkey.

As for discussions, you have time and time again shown you believe that you will reclaim land. I have seen this over the past decades concerning cyprus how the greeks constantly play games and tricks.

Even today you speak to a common greek and he talks as if he owns the entire island. No, in time your hostile attitude will be matched. No matter how many dictators and warlords you rush to for protection as witnessed by haftar and sisi or the wahhabists of the gulf.

Turks are no longer falling for greek games. The greek fooled himself for too long in thinking he was Turkeys equal.
 

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When the Italians were going to give the Dodocanese Islands back to us Ismet Inonu did a dumb mistake in rejecting it.

Now we pay the price for it. Greece constantly upped the Nm and also armed up the islands.

We just stood there and done nothing this whole time.
 

GoatsMilk

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When the Italians were going to give the Dodocanese Islands back to us Ismet Inonu did a dumb mistake in rejecting it.

Now we pay the price for it. Greece constantly upped the Nm and also armed up the islands.

We just stood there and done nothing this whole time.

The era of giving has long come to an end.
 

Foulgrim

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Its a crooked logic, to defend your territorial integrity you break legal agreements and arm those islands which threatens Turkish territorial integrity. By breaking these agreements you show a hostile attitude, now if Turkey annexes those islands to protect her territorial integrity Turkey would have more justification. If greeks cannot even keep to current legal agreements its foolish to think they will come to new mutual ones with Turkey.

As for discussions, you have time and time again shown you believe that you will reclaim land. I have seen this over the past decades concerning cyprus how the greeks constantly play games and tricks.

Even today you speak to a common greek and he talks as if he owns the entire island. No, in time your hostile attitude will be matched. No matter how many dictators and warlords you rush to for protection as witnessed by haftar and sisi or the wahhabists of the gulf.

Turks are no longer falling for greek games. The greek fooled himself for too long in thinking he was Turkeys equal.
Turkey has no right to interfere in the territorial integrity of Greece regardless of whether the islands of the Eastern Aegean are militarized. Of course, this does not mean that the militarization of the islands by Greece should continue. In the context of the dialogue, there should be a new agreement that will talk about the demilitarization of the islands of the Eastern Aegean and the demilitarization of the coasts of Asia Minor. I say my opinion on what should be done, not on what the Greek Government thinks. Do not take the issue of Cyprus because we will not get an edge. There is a official finding from the Republic of Cyprus for the period 1960-1974 and this unequivocally says that then the Greek Government, the Turkish Government, EOKA B' together with the USA and Great Britain divided the island by an unofficial agreement because they did not want the Cyprus to become a strategic partner of the Soviet Union. Specifically, they implemented the Acheson III Plan, there are official documents that are not rejected. The games in Cyprus are played by Turkey, which conducts research within the Cyprus Exclusive Economic Zone, not Greece. The Leporad 2A4 tanks and the howitzer Firtina were not brought to Cyprus by Greece but by Turkey. So do not tell me about "Greek games". Countries around the world have the same rights, Turkey is nothing more than that.
 

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Unfortunately you are right about that. The militarization of the islands is a wrong practice that Greece follows in order to be able to defend its territorial integrity. Maybe there should be an agreement on the demilitarization of the islands of the Eastern Aegean along with the coasts of Asia Minor so that Greece also feels safe. It is a view that could be on the negotiating table of the two countries. As for the occupation of the islands by Turkey in 50 years from today, I think it is an exaggerated view. In the 21st century, any controversy is resolved at the diplomatic table. If you look at things from a military point of view, then the occupation of the islands of the Eastern Aegean by Turkey could take place even now. I do not think there is any comparison between the two countries in weapons systems and everyone knows that. Gone are the days when Greece focused on its weapons systems with a better balance of power. Unfortunately, it seems that there is no political leadership that puts forward a strategic plan for the development of weapons systems of domestic origin.

Greece...
wants to expand from 6nm to 12nm
wants Turkey to respect the Seville made EEZ map
wants to justify illegal arming of agreed demilitarized Dodecanese Islands with the arguement that the 4th Army in Izmir is a threat.

Yet Turkish reaction is called aggression, this is HYPOCRISY.
 

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