TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[HTurk]

View attachment 41937
ÇAKIR AS: Anti-ship missile
ÇAKIR CR: Cruise missile
ÇAKIR LIR: RF jammer / Dummy target
ÇAKIR SW: Swarm missile

Conceptually speaking, what is the difference between swarm missiles fired towards an object on the one hand and a bunch of guided missiles fired towards the same target on the other hand?

 

[Oublious]

Conceptually speaking, what is the difference between swarm missiles fired towards an object on the one hand and a bunch of guided missiles fired towards the same target on the other hand?

saturation attack.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Conceptually speaking, what is the difference between swarm missiles fired towards an object on the one hand and a bunch of guided missiles fired towards the same target on the other hand?

When you fire a bunch of guided missiles at a target, they all fly at the target successively at different times with a good amount of distance between them. This gives opportunity to selectively target incoming missiles and time for defending ship to target one after the other.
Cakir has controllable speed. They can all be brought in line and made to fly at the target as a swarm, making it much harder to target in saturation mode. In fact I wonder if defender’s radar may even see them as one if they can be made to fly close enough to start with. When they separate it may be too late to react.

 

[Nurhak40]

Cakir has the ability to swarm from different angles, imagine 3 missiles coming from the north and 2 from the east and 3 others making a circle coming from the south. That ship is done

 

[TheInsider]

When you fire a bunch of guided missiles at a target, they all fly at the target successively at different times with a good amount of distance between them. This gives opportunity to selectively target incoming missiles and time for defending ship to target one after the other.
Cakir has controllable speed. They can all be brought in line and made to fly at the target as a swarm, making it much harder to target in saturation mode. In fact I wonder if defender’s radar may even see them as one if they can be made to fly close enough to start with. When they separate it may be too late to react.

This is wrong.
Atmaca and Çakır have basic swarm capabilities.
Atmaca has the capability of ToT*, DToT**, and SToT***.

* Time on target (It means hitting a target at the desired time)
** Designated time on target ( A ship launches 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time.)
*** Simultaneous time on target (Two or more ships launch 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time)

Çakır SW will have advanced capabilities on top of those. Like missile to missile comms, target sharing, moving like a pack one missile will fly high and search for the target other missiles stay low and stay passive. Possibilities are endless.

 

[Nurhak40]

Also if its fired from a ship and there is a for example a akinci in the air it will pass control to the akinci

 

[Nilgiri]

When you fire a bunch of guided missiles at a target, they all fly at the target successively at different times with a good amount of distance between them. This gives opportunity to selectively target incoming missiles and time for defending ship to target one after the other.
Cakir has controllable speed. They can all be brought in line and made to fly at the target as a swarm, making it much harder to target in saturation mode. In fact I wonder if defender’s radar may even see them as one if they can be made to fly close enough to start with. When they separate it may be too late to react.

Always best to assume the opponent has tested the idea themselves heh. (or categorise opponents by their ability to do this).

How does tight knit formation appear in radar compared to single missile etc....how to filter that in if the radar can discern it.

This is how gaps/weaknesses in the current tiers of technology are found too.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

EW-missiles are mostly used in SEAD missions to suppress the enemy's ground-based strategic radar systems. They can also take on the role of stand-in jammer when necessary. These missiles are the last generation systems that the world's largest companies are working on and the fact that Turkish companies have a say in this field of technology and even make great progress at a speed that can be a leader in this field is one of the perfect example in terms of showing the level that our country has reached in this technological field.

• Çakir-LIR
• Kuzgun-ER
• Akbaba

Supersonic decoy drones are used in air combats by reaching supersonic speeds, showing themselves to enemy planes and air defense systems like another combat aircraft, drawing attention of the enemy aircrafts on themselves and creating a safe strinking environment for main platforms where they are launched.

When detected by ground based radars in kamikaze missions, they can precisely locate the source of the Rf waves and strike over them. Thanks to the electro-optic payloads to be placed in the Kargi, even if the enemy air defense system turn off the power of radar, Kargi will be able to precisely lock to its target passively and destroy them.

• JEMSAH
• Şimşek-II
• Kargi family

The cost effective BVR and WVR missile systems which will give Turkish armed forces a decisive advantage in air wars and have complete obscurity in terms of their features, will lock and destroy enemy aircraft from long ranges while decoy drones are performing their duties. Considering the diversity of platforms from which these missiles are launched (Akıncı, Kızılelma, Hürjet, TFX), it is not possible for enemy to carry out their command and control activities in this complex structure and to create an accurate aerial picture to determine what is real target or not. With the level Turkey has reached in EW area and especially with the introduction of AESA based Koral-II, IHA-SOJ and Hava-SOJ, the enemy's situation will be much more difficult.

• Akdoğan
• Bozdoğan
• Gökdoğan-I/II
• Gökhan

 

[Huelague]

When you fire a bunch of guided missiles at a target, they all fly at the target successively at different times with a good amount of distance between them. This gives opportunity to selectively target incoming missiles and time for defending ship to target one after the other.
Cakir has controllable speed. They can all be brought in line and made to fly at the target as a swarm, making it much harder to target in saturation mode. In fact I wonder if defender’s radar may even see them as one if they can be made to fly close enough to start with. When they separate it may be too late to react.

I remember a report. A formation of ISR F-16 flown to Irak, and were seen as one passenger plane on Iraqi radar.

 

[TheInsider]

This is wrong.
Atmaca and Çakır have basic swarm capabilities.
Atmaca has the capability of ToT*, DToT**, and SToT***.

* Time on target (It means hitting a target at the desired time)
** Designated time on target ( A ship launches 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time.)
*** Simultaneous time on target (Two or more ships launch 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time)

Çakır SW will have advanced capabilities on top of those. Like missile to missile comms, target sharing, moving like a pack one missile will fly high and search for the target other missiles stay low and stay passive. Possibilities are endless.

https://www.roketsan.com.tr/uploads/docs/kataloglar/ENG/1628389395_atmaca-anti-ship-missile.pdf

 

[Yasar_TR]

This is wrong.
Atmaca and Çakır have basic swarm capabilities.
Atmaca has the capability of ToT*, DToT**, and SToT***.

* Time on target (It means hitting a target at the desired time)
** Designated time on target ( A ship launches 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time.)
*** Simultaneous time on target (Two or more ships launch 2 or more Atmaca with different routes to hit a target at the same time)

Çakır SW will have advanced capabilities on top of those. Like missile to missile comms, target sharing, moving like a pack one missile will fly high and search for the target other missiles stay low and stay passive. Possibilities are endless.

Which part is wrong?
Swarm Saturation? Your TOT and STOT explanation IS Swarm Saturation attack mode. Atmaca can achieve swarm attack mode by redirecting itself via data link info it receives from source, bringing 2 or more missiles launched successively, in line for swarming.
You are explaining exactly what I have written.
Cakir has controllable speed (0.3 Mach to 0.8 Mach). even when fired successively they can be brought together by altering their speeds.
Besides, EW version of CAKIR can pave the way for the swarm of CAKIR Missiles behind it.

 

[TheInsider]

Which part is wrong?
Swarm Saturation? Your TOT and STOT explanation IS Swarm Saturation attack mode. Atmaca can achieve swarm attack mode by redirecting itself via data link info it receives from source, bringing 2 or more missiles launched successively, in line for swarming.
You are explaining exactly what I have written.
Cakir has controllable speed (0.3 Mach to 0.8 Mach). even when fired successively they can be brought together by altering their speeds.
Besides, EW version of CAKIR can pave the way for the swarm of CAKIR Missiles behind it.

When you fire a bunch of guided missiles at a target, they all fly at the target successively at different times with a good amount of distance between them. This gives opportunity to selectively target incoming missiles and time for defending ship to target one after the other.

This part is wrong.

And you wrote a completely different thing in your next post.

 

[Combat-Master]

Not specificly for CAKIR but Concerning booster issues in general Guess Only disadvatage we have at the moment is some countries already have canisters and VLSs for instance just as an example when USA develops MK 72 booster they know the required dimensions according to their VLS but we first developed missiles and T-VLS is coming later. I am sure if required ROKETSAN will be able to adjust their projects and products accordingly in the very near futute. İn most cases what we see is plan B for saving the stiuation. Guess it is safe to assume that there can/will be changes in current designs and CAKIR is not an exception. All of these missiles are our first attempts and we come here from cirit in a record time

It's not like Roketsan doesn't have experience. Roketsan produces the launch boosters for Otomat missile, they could easily adapt one for Cakir and reduce footprint of the launcher.
Making a compact surface/land launcher opens up so much more capability, like I said in a previous post, we could see MRAPs adapted to launch CAKIR a 4x4 instead of a 6x6.

 

[Quasar]

frankly speaking ToT, DToT, and SToT are basic terms for co-ordination of artillery fire.

 

[Combat-Master]

It's not like Roketsan doesn't have experience. Roketsan produces the launch boosters for Otomat missile, they could easily adapt one for Cakir and reduce footprint of the launcher.
Making a compact surface/land launcher opens up so much more capability, like I said in a previous post, we could see MRAPs adapted to launch CAKIR a 4x4 instead of a 6x6.
View attachment 42025
View attachment 42024

Also look how cumbersome this setup is;

Looks rear heavy to me and requires a lot of clearance which may impact launcher adaptions on differing helicopters

Compared to MARTE-ER with the side launch boosters, much more compact

 

[Yasar_TR]

This part is wrong.

And you wrote a completely different thing in your next post.

So if you fire 4 guided trg300 successively, they come together after a while and automatically become a swarm even if they haven’t got datalink connection.
These are simple, cheap guided missiles to suppress enemy positions. Unless swarm capability is given to a missile that statement you deemed wrong, is correct.

 

[TheInsider]

So if you fire 4 guided trg300 successively, they come together after a while and automatically become a swarm even if they haven’t got datalink connection.
These are simple, cheap guided missiles to suppress enemy positions. Unless swarm capability is given to a missile that statement you deemed wrong, is correct.

I never said that. That is your understanding. SToT and DToT capability have nothing to do with that.

 

[TheInsider]

frankly speaking ToT, DToT, and SToT are basic terms for co-ordination of artillery fire.

Yes, but when you are coordinating anti-ship missiles things differ. Advanced 3D mission planning software is needed to have a precise SToT capability when you fire anti-ship missiles from a ship and when 2 or more ships are involved ships have to be networked together so that the mission can be planned with a very precise DToT capability. Last but not least when you want to attack another target with the strike package while the mission is in progress, you have to have an advanced datalink connection to missiles to replan the mission for the new target while maintaining ToT.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I never said that. That is your understanding. SToT and DToT capability have nothing to do with that.

I suggest you read the previous message that @HTurk has written in post #2972 to which I had responded. Then my response will make sense. I am not writing about CAKIR or any missile that has datalink and swarm capability. I am writing about “bunch of guided missiles” as per post #2972, of which trg300 is a good representative example.
You have sense of understanding that is skewed to find the “wrong“ in every post. If I were you I would reread a post before making a comment on it.

 

[TheInsider]

When the mistake is obvious I have no choice but to correct it. I explain in-depth how SToT and DToT differ in cruise missiles compared to artillery. How we can't compare Atmaca that follow 3D waypoints to artillery missiles and shells with ballistic trajectories.