TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509516388909649924

The Çakır mini cruise missile will be able to fly at 0.3 mach speeds.

 

[Anmdt]

Anti-Everything
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Damn the inlet and booster of OMGSF is huge,
"Whomever" is the operator they have some crazy maneuvering and range requirements..

 

[Quasar]

Anti-Everything
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kind of booster we may love to see on SİPER (slimmer&longer with folding wings or no wings)?

 

[Combat-Master]

Damn the inlet and booster of OMGSF is huge,
"Whomever" is the operator they have some crazy maneuvering and range requirements..

Might have to do with with windmilling requirement they had for the engine, bigger scoop more air more spinny spin spin. Wonder if when in canister the inlet stowes inside the body of the missile, like the Atmaca does

 

[TheInsider]

Roketsan runs 70 projects from its own resources.
Tubitak SAGE runs 60+ projects.
Next year we will probably need the power of mighty @Oryx to keep track of unveiled Turkish defense industry projects.

 

[kimov]

I already told I do not mean lucky shots...

optimistic model: 100 kg bomb hits over waterline. Ship disabled, battle stops, war ends with victory.
real life: 100 kg bomb hits over waterline. Enemy surprised by attack but able to recover. Enemy ship continues to fire Harpoon salvos and relay target data, task force projects its full power in a life and death scenario and overwhelms you with antiship missiles. You have a little problem here now as you planned for peacetime lucky scenarios and you are out of antiship missiles. Unable to inflict heavy damage due to staying power of ocean going ships your low cost budget fleet is destroyed. You lose war and the next war. Why? Because you did not want to sink a frigate.

That is a very strange computer game scenario where you get super powers after being hit. In real life, ships don't get stronger after being hit by a missile. The ship simply cant charge ahead with a broken leg like you see in the movies. In this case, a hole 1 meter above water line would be considered as specially broken leg.

For example, why wouldn't the ship fire those Harpoon before she got hit by a missile if there is an enemy target within range? The answer is simple, in war there is nothing to hit since the initial attack was performed by air-crafts/drones/subs/USV and all sea/land targets is either outside Harpoon range or location is unknown to her. We simply would not allow her to come close enough to inflect damage if we have the potential to fire those missile in the first place. So, the one and only option any ship have with a big hole just above water line is to evacuate it and be tugged back to a safe port or risk sinking from a second attack.

Also, nobody is talking about a firing one missile and hoping for a lucky shot hitting the ammo depo during peace time. We will fire as many missiles as we can afford or think we need to disable enemy fleet in the first attack. If needed, a second attack wave will follow with other platforms. Life and war is simply not a computer game where you hit once, i hit once and let us see who wins.

Finally, what is disabling a single ship got to do with winning a war or peace time planning. We are discussion how a medium range anti-ship missile with 100 kg warhead can inflikt damage even on a large ship.

 

[dustdevil]

That is a very strange computer game scenario where you get super powers after being hit. In real life, ships don't get stronger after being hit by a missile. The ship simply cant charge ahead with a broken leg like you see in the movies. In this case, a hole 1 meter above water line would be considered as specially broken leg.

For example, why wouldn't the ship fire those Harpoon before she got hit by a missile if there is an enemy target within range? The answer is simple, in war there is nothing to hit since the initial attack was performed by air-crafts/drones/subs/USV and all sea/land targets is either outside Harpoon range or location is unknown to her. We simply would not allow her to come close enough to inflect damage if we have the potential to fire those missile in the first place. So, the one and only option any ship have with a big hole just above water line is to evacuate it and be tugged back to a safe port or risk sinking from a second attack.

Also, nobody is talking about a firing one missile and hoping for a lucky shot hitting the ammo depo during peace time. We will fire as many missiles as we can afford or think we need to disable enemy fleet in the first attack. If needed, a second attack wave will follow with other platforms. Life and war is simply not a computer game where you hit once, i hit once and let us see who wins.

Finally, what the f*k have disabling a single ship got to do with winning a war or peace time planning. We are discussion how a medium range anti-ship missile with 100 kg warhead can inflikt damage even on a large ship.

Nobody said anything about a ship getting stronger after being hit. That said, war planners use computer models to predict outcome of naval conflicts. The equations include number of missiles, effectivity, defences, anti-defences, missile magazine capacity, detection and evasion from detection, staying power after being hit etc to model real life. After running or reading about those simulations you’d see what I’m talking about, a fleet relying on a small damage to disable vs an all out one will be devastated statistically in almost every scenario. This is naval warfare I’m talking about, not 1 on 1 skirmish.
If you even study human behavior, you’d see that low firepower would not even stop the enemy from planning an attack and you’ll start with disadvantage before the actual event i.e. if one can only inflict damage like a waterline damage the much capable enemy will surely attack because the risk is low to them. (In scenarios where enemy decides to attack, similar to game theory outcomes, low threat and low risk to enemy or the perception of it will invite an attack if the enemy can get away with it)

Edit: stuff like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvo_combat_model

For example thinking 1 missile is enough for a frigate and putting this into model would lead to false conclusions maybe even misleading battle plans and misleading decisionmaking. That’s why I want to disregard outlier shots.

Another way to visualise this consider this scenario:

- US fleet vs Turkish fleet with dated and limited missiles-> US will think Turkey is annoying and will launch a crippling strike
- US fleet vs Turkish fleet with 1000 Atmacas and 3000 Çakır missiles->US will suddenly remember Korean war and how good allies we were and will try to find a solution that benefits all. The power and risks will shape the perception, similar to how TB2 was a menace in previous conflicts now is seen as a savior.

 

[Oublious]

I asume Cakir was navy project and Kuzgun air force?

 

[Huelague]

We must think about to fusion Kale E and TEI. Later we can push for one more engine company to strengthen the competition. Right now, we need giants.

 

[Hexciter]

ÇAKIR AS: Anti-ship missile
ÇAKIR CR: Cruise missile
ÇAKIR LIR: RF jammer / Dummy target
ÇAKIR SW: Swarm missile

 

[Combat-Master]

ÇAKIR AS: Anti-ship missile
ÇAKIR CR: Cruise missile
ÇAKIR LIR: RF jammer / Dummy target
ÇAKIR SW: Swarm missile

Isn't LIR an acronym NATO uses for IR flares ?

 

[Combat-Master]

Always amazing analysis from these two, translation available through youtube.

 

[Nurhak40]

Always amazing analysis from these two, translation available through youtube.

Holy fuck, the capabilities are tremendous even better then the marte missile

 

[Combat-Master]

Design consideration, now I know Roketsan likes to fall back on previous R&D to develop new missiles - hence I understand why the booster on Cakma is the way it is. But, wouldn't it be better for Roketsan to design canister version of Cakir with booster rocket similar to MARTE-ER. Would save alot of deck space on ship and on vehicles

Potential of mounting on unmanned MRAPs with the more compact dimensions, NSM Missile launch from JLTV ROGUE

 

[Hexciter]

Design consideration, now I know Roketsan likes to fall back on previous R&D to develop new missiles - hence I understand why the booster on Cakma is the way it is. But, wouldn't it be better for Roketsan to design canister version of Cakir with booster rocket similar to MARTE-ER. Would save alot of deck space on ship and on vehicles
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Potential of mounting on unmanned MRAPs with the more compact dimensions, NSM Missile launch from JLTV ROGUE
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Indeed! Do we really need those huge winglets on the booster? Look at the NSM. Furthermore -by the way- you can add a larger dia but shorter booster which will reduce overall lenght.

 

[Combat-Master]

I think it's doable..

 

[TheInsider]

We don't want Çakır to end up as a million-dollar product. Atmaca and Çakır have many things in common and we are using that architecture to keep costs in check.

 

[Anmdt]

Design consideration, now I know Roketsan likes to fall back on previous R&D to develop new missiles - hence I understand why the booster on Cakma is the way it is. But, wouldn't it be better for Roketsan to design canister version of Cakir with booster rocket similar to MARTE-ER. Would save alot of deck space on ship and on vehicles
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Potential of mounting on unmanned MRAPs with the more compact dimensions, NSM Missile launch from JLTV ROGUE
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Let's see how this project will unfold by time. But i believe the canister launched version will be as compact as it gets.
Atmaca has folded wings on the booster, so why not in this one? That kind of stuff does not increase the price dramatically.
And i think it is better if they keep the width small as possibly so the final canisters will occupy less space. Length is not much of a concern (Either 3.3 or 2.85 does not matter for Navy guys)

 

[Quasar]

Not specificly for CAKIR but Concerning booster issues in general Guess Only disadvantage we have at the moment is some countries already have canisters and VLSs for instance just as an example when USA develops MK 72 booster they know the required dimensions according to their VLS but we first developed missiles and T-VLS is coming later. I am sure if required ROKETSAN will be able to adjust their projects and products accordingly in the very near futute. İn most cases what we see is plan B for saving the situation. Guess it is safe to assume that there can/will be changes in current designs and CAKIR is not an exception. All of these missiles are our first attempts and we come here from cirit in a record time

 

[Lool]

TEI TJ-300 gives 1342 Newton thrust. This missile will need 1750Newton thrust. So it is understandable that they are going for another engine class. But I just hope we don’t wait another 8 years like we did with KTJ-3200!
There should also be a TEI TJ-400 with nearly 1800Newton thrust. Most of us saw the FADEC screen of this engine in one of the videos of Dr Aksit.
Clearly, SSB is pushing missile engines through Kale.

Not only missile engines though
As far as I remember, the national TFX engine will be through a partnership between Kale and Rolls Royce

Idk why but I feel that TEI is being left out a bit even though it can produce top notch engines given the time and manpower