TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Anmdt]

ESSM is designed for stopping supersonic and subsonic cruise missiles and low speed aircrafts. It is especially good against sea skimming missiles. It was never designed against ballistic missiles.
quote:

Mission/Role:​

The mission of the ESSM is to provide the U.S. Navy and allies of the United States with a missile with performance to defeat current and projected threats that possess low-altitude, high-velocity, and maneuver characteristics beyond the engagement capabilities of the RIM-7P Sea Sparrow.

Unquote

Although real range and altitude figures are classified, ESSM is thought to have an effective range of 40-50 km . it can not go too high in altitude either - just check our Gokdogan/G40 if launched from land-. With that sort of range and altitude it would be a real feat of achievement to hit a target like Bora which will cover that 40km within 20seconds. Also if it was vertically trying to hit the incoming Bora, an ESSM will not even make half that distance.
Logically, like you say, if vertically launched and had enough juice in it like a booster, it could be able to intercept.
Also the targeting radars of ESSM will have to be able to lock on to the maneuvering and altitude changing Bora in the first place.

1st How an interceptor missile works?
Bora will be detected far before than 40 km distance, nearly max distance of search and track radar, ESSM will have enough time to intercept with a predicted route. Block II has active rf seeker for terminal stage which wont rely on the ship for illumination in that stage.
The low altitude does not only refer to sea skimming missiles. It depends on flight profile of Bora but it wont be exactly vertical too.
2nd Bora as other ballistic missiles doesn't have any maneuvering ability. It follows an easily predictable path with corrections for guidance, easy to keep radar lock on. ESSM will not need to maneuver for that, probably effective range and altitude may increase.
What is the advantage? Possible threats which Bora might be used against is not acquainted with such a threat. ESSM and other self defense systems are rather optimized for near surface threats (or up to medium altitude for ESSM) but still useful against, yet operators is not trained for that.

It is not the same for a sea skimming HS cruise missile which is detected rather late, leaves a little response time.

 

[Yasar_TR]

1st How an interceptor missile works?
Bora will be detected far before than 40 km distance, nearly max distance of search and track radar, ESSM will have enough time to intercept with a predicted route. Block II has active rf seeker for terminal stage which wont rely on the ship for illumination in that stage.
The low altitude does not only refer to sea skimming missiles. It depends on flight profile of Bora but it wont be exactly vertical too.
2nd Bora as other ballistic missiles doesn't have any maneuvering ability. It follows an easily predictable path with corrections for guidance, easy to keep radar lock on. ESSM will not need to maneuver for that, probably effective range and altitude may increase.
What is the advantage? Possible threats which Bora might be used against is not acquainted with such a threat. ESSM and other self defense systems are rather optimized for near surface threats (or up to medium altitude for ESSM) but still useful against, yet operators is not trained for that.

It is not the same for a sea skimming HS cruise missile which is detected rather late, leaves a little response time.

Bora 1 (Khan) is a copy of Chinese M20 missile system. M20 itself is the copy of Russian Iskender-E missile.
Quote:
This ballistic missile reportedly has built-in countermeasures and is capable of evading hostile missile defense systems. Most likely that in the terminal phase of the flight it excessively maneuvers and releases decoys. In some cases this ballistic missile can be used as an alernative to precision bombing.
Khan is a Turkish license-produced version of the M20.

unquote

M20 Short-Range Ballistic Missile | Military-Today.com

The M20 is a Chinese short-range ballistic missile. This weapon is modeled after the Russian Iskander and is being proposed as its alternative. The launcher vehicle can carry not only ballistic missiles, but also anti-ship missiles and artillery rockets.

www.military-today.com

It does have maneuvering capability to evade AD systems.

 

[Anmdt]

Bora 1 (Khan) is a copy of Chinese M20 missile system. M20 itself is the copy of Russian Iskender-E missile.
Quote:
This ballistic missile reportedly has built-in countermeasures and is capable of evading hostile missile defense systems. Most likely that in the terminal phase of the flight it excessively maneuvers and releases decoys. In some cases this ballistic missile can be used as an alernative to precision bombing.
Khan is a Turkish license-produced version of the M20.

unquote

M20 Short-Range Ballistic Missile | Military-Today.com

The M20 is a Chinese short-range ballistic missile. This weapon is modeled after the Russian Iskander and is being proposed as its alternative. The launcher vehicle can carry not only ballistic missiles, but also anti-ship missiles and artillery rockets.

www.military-today.com

View attachment 8312

It does have maneuvering capability to evade AD systems.

Evasive maneuvers at Mach 5 with very small control surfaces of such an heavy missile? Doesn't really make much sense. I am writing again if you didn't read earlier or skipped those parts:
Such a missile can be detected at 200km + distance with Smart-S equivalent. And can be tracked effectively,
ESSM can be launched at a suitable time to engage at suitable altitude and range, it doesn't have to be fired when the threat is at 40 km distance, It can be fired earlier.
ESSM's effective range is 40~50km with maneuvers typically needed for an incoming cruise missiles, with Medium-Range role it is even further, higher altitudes can be engaged too.
A mach 5+ ballistic missile in a free-fall mode is not expected to maneuver as much as a cruise missile which is powered by an engine and larger control surfaces ,relative to its size and weight.

*Such evasive maneuvers are conducted by multiple re-entries (changing projectile profile temporarily) or spiraling down towards the target, not comparable of cruise missile's evasions, these are not sufficient to evade an AD missile with a lock-on but only to avoid INS guided interception point.
ESSM has mid-course guidance update.

 

[guest12]

Evasive maneuvers at Mach 5 with very small control surfaces of such an heavy missile? Doesn't really make much sense. I am writing again if you didn't read earlier or skipped those parts:
Such a missile can be detected at 200km + distance with Smart-S equivalent. And can be tracked effectively,
ESSM can be launched at a suitable time to engage at suitable altitude and range, it doesn't have to be fired when the threat is at 40 km distance, It can be fired earlier.
ESSM's effective range is 40~50km with maneuvers typically needed for an incoming cruise missiles, with Medium-Range role it is even further, higher altitudes can be engaged too.
A mach 5+ ballistic missile in a free-fall mode is not expected to maneuver as much as a cruise missile which is powered by an engine and larger control surfaces ,relative to its size and weight.

*Such evasive maneuvers are conducted by multiple re-entries (changing projectile profile temporarily) or spiraling down towards the target, not comparable of cruise missile's evasions, these are not sufficient to evade an AD missile with a lock-on but only to avoid INS guided interception point.
ESSM has mid-course guidance update.

And if said ship's radar under EW suppression?

 

[Anmdt]

And if said ship's radar under EW suppression?

If said the missile is under EW suppression?
What ESM-ECM modules are for?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Evasive maneuvers at Mach 5 with very small control surfaces of such an heavy missile? Doesn't really make much sense. I am writing again if you didn't read earlier or skipped those parts:
Such a missile can be detected at 200km + distance with Smart-S equivalent. And can be tracked effectively,
ESSM can be launched at a suitable time to engage at suitable altitude and range, it doesn't have to be fired when the threat is at 40 km distance, It can be fired earlier.
ESSM's effective range is 40~50km with maneuvers typically needed for an incoming cruise missiles, with Medium-Range role it is even further, higher altitudes can be engaged too.
A mach 5+ ballistic missile in a free-fall mode is not expected to maneuver as much as a cruise missile which is powered by an engine and larger control surfaces ,relative to its size and weight.

*Such evasive maneuvers are conducted by multiple re-entries (changing projectile profile temporarily) or spiraling down towards the target, not comparable of cruise missile's evasions, these are not sufficient to evade an AD missile with a lock-on but only to avoid INS guided interception point.
ESSM has mid-course guidance update.

I did read your messages at least twice. I did say at the beginning that the only contender amongst the sample missiles and AD systems you gave, is ESSM. But I do have reservations.
I know ship radars can track a missile like Bora hundreds of kilometers away. But when it is on top attack mode I can’t see ESSM being able to lock on to it Or if it did , it is capable of hitting it. ESSM without booster should not have effect above 10km altitude if g40 and land launched Gokdogan missile is anything to go by. That would cut down the reaction time to a handful of seconds.
ESSM is a very capable missile. Especially in it’s block 2 guise it is formidable against all sorts of cruise missiles ; supersonic or subsonic. It probably has the electronics to hit a ballistic missile. But I am not sure it has the juice to do it.
It is not an anti ballistic missile by design. For that there is SM-3. And Aster-30 series. They are ship based and specifically built to shoot down short and medium range ballistic missiles.
That is why a lot of NATO members who also use and are in the consortium building ESSM blk2 , are also developing Aster-30INT. It is being designed to shoot ballistic missiles with up to 1500km range. Aster-30 Blk2BMD will shoot down 3000km range ballistic missiles.
That is why we are working on Siper project.

MoND: The First Step Taken for SIPER – the National Long-Range Air Defence and Missile System Project

www.defenceturkey.com

Also if you are attacking a valuable asset like a frigate or destroyer you are not going to send just one of these. You will try to saturate it’s defences. Because the target is worth it.

Evolved Seasparrow Missile Block 2 Successfully Intercepts Aerial Target in First Live Fire Test - USNI News

The Evolved Seasparrow Missile Block 2 successfully intercepted an aerial target with its active guidance seeker-head, in the missile's first live fire test

news.usni.org

 

[Anmdt]

That is why a lot of NATO members who also use and are in the consortium building ESSM blk2 , are also developing Aster-30INT. It is being designed to shoot ballistic missiles with up to 1500km range. Aster-30 Blk2BMD will shoot down 3000km range ballistic missiles.
That is why we are working on Siper project.

These are two different situations,
While a ship defending itself, it does point defense (which ESSM is made for, and it is not alone but with CIWS)
While a ship is defending an area from BM, it is not a point defense but AMD mission, only way to achieve this is high-altitude AD missile systems. Consider it in 3D, a ship positioned far from shore can not engage a missile targeting and inland target passing over herself, unless it is equipped with AMD missiles capable of maneuvering in high altitudes.
A BM missile targeting a "point" at sea or at shore will have to re-enter earlier and find the target, then it can do some evasions (raise and prepare for second entry), it will be tracked all along.
It is always told, there is a higher chance when you are prepared for it; the farther you detect the threat, the more time you have got for preps, plan multiple launches of point defense missiles, get CIWS engaged on the BM and waiting for the calculcated "perfect" engagement time, even conduct EW on the target.

I know ship radars can track a missile like Bora hundreds of kilometers away. But when it is on top attack mode I can’t see ESSM being able to lock on to it Or if it did , it is capable of hitting it. ESSM without booster should not have effect above 10km altitude if g40 and land launched Gokdogan missile is anything to go by. That would cut down the reaction time to a handful of seconds.

As said above, ESSM doesn't have to have ceiling beyond 10 km, It doesn't have to engage the BM at high altitudes. Even at top attack profile ESSM can be launched earlier to intercept it at 10, then second will get ready to engage at 8 km altitude, and another at 6 and again at 4, with 2 seconds interval. (Assuming it can engage most at 10km, it might be even more)
A BM can not do much of maneuver in last 10 km which is nearly with ETA of ~10 second, at that moment its only concern is to correct its path towards target (for accuracy) Most of maneuvering is done at re-entry stage to fool INS mid-course guided fire and forget missiles with active RF -IR -IIR seeker.

 

[Yasar_TR]

These are two different situations,
While a ship defending itself, it does point defense (which ESSM is made for, and it is not alone but with CIWS)
While a ship is defending an area from BM, it is not a point defense but AMD mission, only way to achieve this is high-altitude AD missile systems. Consider it in 3D, a ship positioned far from shore can not engage a missile targeting and inland target passing over herself, unless it is equipped with AMD missiles capable of maneuvering in high altitudes.
A BM missile targeting a "point" at sea or at shore will have to re-enter earlier and find the target, then it can do some evasions (raise and prepare for second entry), it will be tracked all along.
It is always told, there is a higher chance when you are prepared for it; the farther you detect the threat, the more time you have got for preps, plan multiple launches of point defense missiles, get CIWS engaged on the BM and waiting for the calculcated "perfect" engagement time, even conduct EW on the target.

As said above, ESSM doesn't have to have ceiling beyond 10 km, It doesn't have to engage the BM at high altitudes. Even at top attack profile ESSM can be launched earlier to intercept it at 10, then second will get ready to engage at 8 km altitude, and another at 6 and again at 4, with 2 seconds interval. (Assuming it can engage most at 10km, it might be even more)
A BM can not do much of maneuver in last 10 km which is nearly with ETA of ~10 second, at that moment its only concern is to correct its path towards target (for accuracy) Most of maneuvering is done at re-entry stage to fool INS mid-course guided fire and forget missiles with active RF -IR -IIR seeker.

Thanks for all the info. But I have one question;
Why does US produce and use SM-3 at 9+ million dollars each and Europeans have aster30 at 4+ million dollar each on their ships while still having ESSM at under 1 million dollar, if ESSM could do the same job?

 

[Anmdt]

Thanks for all the info. But I have one question;
Why does US produce and use SM-3 at 9+ million dollars each and Europeans have aster30 at 4+ million dollar each on their ships while still having ESSM at under 1 million dollar, if ESSM could do the same job?

As i said before:
ESSM protects the ship,
Those mentioned missiles protect a whole area-country.

To explain easier:
A TF-2000 with SM-3 positioned in Antalya can intercept a BM missile fired from Syria/Iran/Armenia to Ankara at higher altitudes. This also can intercept a BM targeting the ship or flottila from greater and safer distance /altitude.
An I-Class with ESSM can only intercept a BM targeting her flotilla, port (if staying there). Can't do much for else but only watch /track maybe impose some EW.

The first is for wide area AMD, the latter's capability to intercept BM is limited with small areas which is called "point", thus referred as "point defense"
In the first case, the BM is targeting anywhere, in latter case the BM is exactly targeting whereabouts of the launcher and radar.

 

[what]

So for the amateuers like me: SM-3 compareable to S400/Patriots. ESSM is close to our Hisar O, but of course not land based. Correct?

 

[Combat-Master]

Bora 1 (Khan) is a copy of Chinese M20 missile system. M20 itself is the copy of Russian Iskender-E missile.
Quote:
This ballistic missile reportedly has built-in countermeasures and is capable of evading hostile missile defense systems. Most likely that in the terminal phase of the flight it excessively maneuvers and releases decoys. In some cases this ballistic missile can be used as an alernative to precision bombing.
Khan is a Turkish license-produced version of the M20.

unquote

M20 Short-Range Ballistic Missile | Military-Today.com

The M20 is a Chinese short-range ballistic missile. This weapon is modeled after the Russian Iskander and is being proposed as its alternative. The launcher vehicle can carry not only ballistic missiles, but also anti-ship missiles and artillery rockets.

www.military-today.com

View attachment 8312

It does have maneuvering capability to evade AD systems.

Bora = / = Khan ....

Turkish Artillery Systems & Projects

Artillery Systems & Projects of Turkish Defence Industry 📸 Manufacturer Designation Type Diameter ^ Range MKE N/A Naval Cannon 76mm 16km MKE Boran Light Towed Howitzer 105mm 16km MKE T-107 Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher 107mm 11km MKE / Roketsan T-122...

defencehub.live

 

[Yasar_TR]

So for the amateuers like me: SM-3 compareable to S400/Patriots. ESSM is close to our Hisar O, but of course not land based. Correct?

Not quite!
SM3 in it’s new version of blk 2 has an altitude of 1075km and a range of 1200km. So it can hit ballistic missiles when they are in their mid-course in space. It really does not have an exact comparable system in the Russian arsenal. SM3 missiles, potentially could neutralise all Russian nuclear deterrence if enough are deployed.
S-400 is really for air breathing cruise missiles and for aircrafts. Also there are reports that it is good against some short and medium range ballistic missiles. It can not go above 30km altitude and it’s maximum range is 400km. (That too is a myth. According to a Swedish report it is much shorter than that) Russians are developing S-500 to use as ballistic missile killer.
Patriot pac2 is comparable to S-400.
US’s THAAD system is actually a comparison to S-500 being developed.

 

[Era_shield]

Bora 1 (Khan) is a copy of Chinese M20 missile system. M20 itself is the copy of Russian Iskender-E missile.
Quote:
This ballistic missile reportedly has built-in countermeasures and is capable of evading hostile missile defense systems. Most likely that in the terminal phase of the flight it excessively maneuvers and releases decoys. In some cases this ballistic missile can be used as an alernative to precision bombing.
Khan is a Turkish license-produced version of the M20.

unquote

M20 Short-Range Ballistic Missile | Military-Today.com

The M20 is a Chinese short-range ballistic missile. This weapon is modeled after the Russian Iskander and is being proposed as its alternative. The launcher vehicle can carry not only ballistic missiles, but also anti-ship missiles and artillery rockets.

www.military-today.com

View attachment 8312

It does have maneuvering capability to evade AD systems.

This website says the diameter of Khan is 610mm while diameter of M20 is 750mm. So it's not a license produced copy. It could potentially be a derivative, but they offer no evidence of this. They also say one was fired into Iran, and in another page on the same site it says it was fired into Iraq. Both are false - it was fired into Syria. Obviously this website does no fact checking or even basic editorial oversight so I wouldn't give it much credence.

 

[Yasar_TR]

This website says the diameter of Khan is 610mm while diameter of M20 is 750mm. So it's not a license produced copy. It could potentially be a derivative, but they offer no evidence of this. They also say one was fired into Iran, and in another page on the same site it says it was fired into Iraq. Both are false - it was fired into Syria. Obviously this website does no fact checking or even basic editorial oversight so I wouldn't give it much credence.

You are correct in pointing out the inconsistencies in the figures and information given in this article.
M20 was the original copy of the missile. DF12 is derived from this. Then many other derivatives emerged with different ranges and weights. M20 does have bigger diameter And heavier too. Because they are older tech. China’s first attempt at SRBM production. That does not mean that Bora is not a license produced derivative of this missile. There is a difference between Khan and Bora in terms of their dimensions too. (5 rotor bladed, Honeywell engined T-129 helicopter is a license produced derivative of 4 rotor bladed RR engined A-129.)

Khan Short-Range Ballistic Missile | Military-Today.com

The Khan is a new Turkish ballistic missile system. Locally this system is known as the Kaan. Essentially it is a Chinese M20 missile system, license-produced in Turkey by Roketsan.

www.military-today.com

You are totally correct in saying that Bora was not fired against Iran. But it WAS fired against PKK positions in Kandil/Iraq.

 

[what]

Not quite!
SM3 in it’s new version of blk 2 has an altitude of 1075km and a range of 1200km. So it can hit ballistic missiles when they are in their mid-course in space. It really does not have an exact comparable system in the Russian arsenal. SM3 missiles, potentially could neutralise all Russian nuclear deterrence if enough are deployed.
S-400 is really for air breathing cruise missiles and for aircrafts. Also there are reports that it is good against some short and medium range ballistic missiles. It can not go above 30km altitude and it’s maximum range is 400km. (That too is a myth. According to a Swedish report it is much shorter than that) Russians are developing S-500 to use as ballistic missile killer.
Patriot pac2 is comparable to S-400.
US’s THAAD system is actually a comparison to S-500 being developed.

Wow that missile is a beast.

 

[Era_shield]

Wow that missile is a beast.

It is but partly because it operates in space and doesn't carry an explosive warhead. Intercepting BMs is really hard, check out the ridiculous things they were doing in the 70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) This missile went so fast a plasma sheath formed around it, making it almost impossible to receive its guidance signal.

 

[what]

Here Is What Each Of The Navy's Ship-Launched Missiles Actually Costs​

Here Is What Each Of The Navy's Ship-Launched Missiles Actually Costs

Arming America's fleet of fighting ships is an extremely expensive endeavor.

www.thedrive.com

Examples:

• Standard Missile 3 (SM-3) Block IIA- $36,387,000
  • The funds for these missiles also come through the MDA budget.
• Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile(ESSM) - $1,795,000
  • This unit cost reflects an average for the entire projected Fiscal Year 2021 purchase, which includes ESSM Block I and Block II versions.

 

[Saithan]

Kargu and PG50, looks really awesome tbh.

 

[Turko]

Coyote Block 2

View attachment 8575 View attachment 8576
View attachment 8577

How much will it cost? It would be more expensive than a drone?

 

[Anmdt]

Bro, any progress on IDAS missile project?

I don't really know, has there been any live tests in Germany?