TR Naval Programs

[fq5n9v]

I took a look, the denizhan corvette look nice! Hopefully dearsan can provide some fruitfull competetion in the future tenders.

They're also exporting OPV76 to Nigearia

 

[Akritas]

There is no way a Belharra is going to carry 8 Aster30 missiles and they will be worth 1.2 billion Euros. (Even with 32 Aster30s that is around 64million dollars)

One from the latest French proposal was a Belharra with 32 Aster-30 missiles, one A70 VLS(can take 8 Naval Scalp), CIWS, Strales, CAMM-ER with the price of €925 mil.

 

[Brave Janissary]

One from the latest French proposal was a Belharra with 32 Aster-30 missiles, one A70 VLS(can take 8 Naval Scalp), CIWS, Strales, CAMM-ER with the price of €925 mil.

So why they are build freem ? Belharra more sufficent than

 

[Yasar_TR]

They're also exporting OPV76 to Nigearia

Correct ! Great achievement. They have secured sale of two OPVs to Nigeria.

https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Dearsan-opv-76.jpg.webp

Turkey’s Dearsan Shipyard to Build 2 OPVs for the Nigerian Navy - Naval News

According to Dearsan, the Turkish shipyard has secured an agreement with the Nigerian Navy to build two offshore patrol vessels.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Nutuk]

One from the latest French proposal was a Belharra with 32 Aster-30 missiles, one A70 VLS(can take 8 Naval Scalp), CIWS, Strales, CAMM-ER with the price of €925 mil.

This is one of those information pollution news, do you really believe all those negotiations go public?

To have the real overview one has to await the contract outcome.

 

[Akritas]

So why they are build freem ? Belharra more sufficent than

For three reasons I supposed:1) contracts to build Freem's 2)two different ships, one has displacement 6.000 tn and the other 4.400 tn and 3)purpose of the ships, Bellhara is cover other operational necessities.

 

[Akritas]

This is one of those information pollution news, do you really believe all those negotiations go public?

To have the real overview one has to await the contract outcome.

FDI contract is already to the Greek parliament, Naval-Group also has announced what will have on it, plus during the tender, at least 4 of the 6 companies had publicly clarified what they were offering.

 

[TheInsider]

1. Dont forget inflation while speaking about 10 to 20 year differences.

2. Chinese, with all subsidization on steel, electricity, natural resources, cheaper workmanship et al. provided to the shipyards and electronic manufacturer produces Type 052D for nearly as much as $500M (possibly excluding the missiles in the VLS, also a price tag from 12 years ago), a ship that is definitely inferior to TF-2000 in many levels. I don't think Turkey subsidizes any of those sources, nor have cheaper labor prices compared to chinese shipyards.

3. For I-Class, the electronics on the I-Class is in folds compared to the Ada-Class (i have earlier listed those). It will not double the Ada Class in price but it won't be cheap as 300M.

Price calculation is a hefty job, the prices we hear are or read on the internet sometimes;
- bare (nothing but the main gun as a weapon + CIWS)
- includes basic weapons (main gun + AShM, Stabilized turret)
- includes weapons + missiles + spares as much as the loaded ones,
- includes training,
- includes maintenance for 5/10 years of the entire hull.
- Includes helicopter and other assets to be carried by the ship.

Which prices are we talking about? Those may vary the prices from 0.7x to 2x.

The parallel construction budget of the 3 I class is expected to be around 1 billion if Erdogan doesn't cut the price further. We will see what is included in the deal.
The current estimates put 1 TF-2000 at around 750-800 million. %20-25 lower than the older price analysis of 1 billion. No one said anything about a 500 million destroyer it is not realistic.

So what contributes to price change?
1- Devaluation of TL
2- New subsystem nationalization efforts VLS, missile load, main gun, etc. (There are "HUGE" gains in this topic a national VLS+missile load is less than half price of a similar Mk41+foreign missile load, MKE 76mm gun costs a fraction of OTO Melara 76mm. Atmaca costs a fraction of Harpoon. )
3- National workshare of GE engines(LM-2500 and LM-500) through TEI. If LM-500 is selected for Turk Class FACs it will be produced locally under GE license.
4- Optimization, extended nationalization(component and lower level), and price reduction studies for the national subsystems that are currently in use or in development (There will be a good amount of price reduction for CAFRAD).
5- Tax exemption for SSB and MoD projects. This is a new law that passed recently. This means STM (main contractor for SSB) can buy CENK-S radar from Aselsan for the I class it builds (for the SSB) without paying any tax.

Yeni Kanun Teklifi – Son Durum

Vergi Bülteni 2021/82

www.pwc.com.tr

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Anmdt bro, The STM500 submarine, which was worked on before the construction of 3000t class Milden, is in its final stage and it is said that construction activities will start this year. What do you think about the possibility of making an unmanned variant of this 550t sub? what are you thinking bro?

 

[Anmdt]

The parallel construction budget of the 3 I class is expected to be around 1 billion if Erdogan doesn't cut the price further. We will see what is included in the deal.
The current estimates put 1 TF-2000 at around 750-800 million. %20-25 lower than the older price analysis of 1 billion. No one said anything about a 500 million destroyer it is not realistic.

So what contributes to price change?
1- Devaluation of TL
2- New subsystem nationalization efforts VLS, missile load, main gun, etc. (There are "HUGE" gains in this topic a national VLS+missile load is less than half price of a similar Mk41+foreign missile load, MKE 76mm gun costs a fraction of OTO Melara 76mm. Atmaca costs a fraction of Harpoon. )
3- National workshare of GE engines(LM-2500 and LM-500) through TEI. If LM-500 is selected for Turk Class FACs it will be produced locally under GE license.
4- Optimization, extended nationalization(component and lower level), and price reduction studies for the national subsystems that are currently in use or in development (There will be a good amount of price reduction for CAFRAD).
5- Tax exemption for SSB and MoD projects. This is a new law that passed recently. This means STM (main contractor for SSB) can buy CENK-S radar from Aselsan for the I class it builds (for the SSB) without paying any tax.

Yeni Kanun Teklifi – Son Durum

Vergi Bülteni 2021/82

www.pwc.com.tr

Chinese one is an extreme example from 2010s to give a glimpse of what TF-2000's actual cost will be, i wanted to note despite of all subsidization and inferior components, Type 052D costs as much as $500m in 2012. Note the inflation in USD is about 20% 2012 to 2022. Even highly subsidized chinese destroyer with inferior components (compared to TF2000) costs $600M FY2022.

Only exclusion of tax may help a little, the rest has little to no effect on the final price. GE&TEI deal is more beneficial to maintenance costs than it is to initial costs.

The contract amount is not usually bound forever, TCG Anadolu has surpassed the initial amount by 20% by now.

 

[Anmdt]

@Anmdt bro, The STM500 submarine, which was worked on before the construction of 3000t class Milden, is in its final stage and it is said that construction activities will start this year. What do you think about the possibility of making an unmanned variant of this 550t sub? what are you thinking bro?

View attachment 38659

Bro, there are works on unmanned underwater systems of different sizes but i don't know if there is one as big as the STM500. Is it possible? Yes but if we remove the human factor the 550 tonnes would be unnecessary and the same duty would be fulfilled by 100-150 tons sub. And i think such a submarine (possibly a smaller variant) will be used with Milden.

We will hear and see more about the LUUVs with strike and ISR capability as Milden's concept phase matures, an unmanned sub is likely to be developed along Milden and funded through the same channels.

There are several projects are not official but some open source information is available;

-Havelsan works on small sized unmanned underwater platforms mainly for data collection, ISR with certain degree of autonomy.

-STM works on concepts of several sizes but none i know goes above a certain size, rather for ISR and data collection again.

-Aselsan works on torpedo sized unmanned platform that can operate as a forward sensor (passive sonar and wake sensors aboard), possibly with a capability to be recovered at the torpedo tube.

-SSB has a roadmap for long range torpedo (technically an armed AUV) that can spend a certain amount at sea. It can be guided towards the targets and commence the launch procedures through some feed mechanisms.

My personal estimation;

Armerkom & Milden DPO possibly have the roadmap for a mini-sub that will later yield to unmanned mini subs for littoral waters.

So far in near future we will be hanging around the small to medium UUVs, by Milden stepping up to LUUVs and finally introduce XLUUVs. Since UUVs are mainly oriented for endurance than the range it suits best to our needs in littoral waters around the homeland.

 

[TheInsider]

Chinese one is an extreme example from 2010s to give a glimpse of what TF-2000's actual cost will be, i wanted to note despite of all subsidization and inferior components, Type 052D costs as much as $500m in 2012. Note the inflation in USD is about 20% 2012 to 2022. Even highly subsidized chinese destroyer with inferior components (compared to TF2000) costs $600M FY2022.

Only exclusion of tax may help a little, the rest has little to no effect on the final price. GE&TEI deal is more beneficial to maintenance costs than it is to initial costs.

The contract amount is not usually bound forever, TCG Anadolu has surpassed the initial amount by 20% by now.

I disagree. The price range of 16x Mk41 VLS is between 35 to 48 million $.
The up-to-date price of a single 76mm cannon is 8.2 million euros(9.33 million $). The whole national 76mm cannon development project cost is 4.7 million $
Those two items alone will decrease the price of I class by 20 million $. That is %5 for a 400 million $ frigate.
An Atmaca costs 500k $ how much does a harpoon cost?

And I don't understand how a huge %18 tax exemption only contributes "a little". From bolts and nuts to sheet steel, from electronic warfare systems to generators this tax exemption will be applied to every item that will be used for the construction of I class ships(or any other defense industry project).

Savunma sanayisi projelerine ilişkin teslim ve hizmetlere KDV istisnası getirildi

Milli Savunma Bakanlığı veya Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca yürütülen projeler kapsamındaki teslim ve hizmetler için 25 Aralık 2021'den itibaren katma değer vergisi istisnası uygulanacak. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[fq5n9v]

Bro, there are works on unmanned underwater systems of different sizes but i don't know if there is one as big as the STM500. Is it possible? Yes but if we remove the human factor the 550 tonnes would be unnecessary and the same duty would be fulfilled by 100-150 tons sub. And i think such a submarine (possibly a smaller variant) will be used with Milden.

We will hear and see more about the LUUVs with strike and ISR capability as Milden's concept phase matures, an unmanned sub is likely to be developed along Milden and funded through the same channels.

There are several projects are not official but some open source information is available;

-Havelsan works on small sized unmanned underwater platforms mainly for data collection, ISR with certain degree of autonomy.

-STM works on concepts of several sizes but none i know goes above a certain size, rather for ISR and data collection again.

-Aselsan works on torpedo sized unmanned platform that can operate as a forward sensor (passive sonar and wake sensors aboard), possibly with a capability to be recovered at the torpedo tube.

-SSB has a roadmap for long range torpedo (technically an armed AUV) that can spend a certain amount at sea. It can be guided towards the targets and commence the launch procedures through some feed mechanisms.

My personal estimation;

Armerkom & Milden DPO possibly have the roadmap for a mini-sub that will later yield to unmanned mini subs for littoral waters.

So far in near future we will be hanging around the small to medium UUVs, by Milden stepping up to LUUVs and finally introduce XLUUVs. Since UUVs are mainly oriented for endurance than the range it suits best to our needs in littoral waters around the homeland.

Sorry for my ignorance but isn't communicating with submerged underwater platforms is almost impossible? You may not need to control data collection platforms but how would it work for an attack submarine?

 

[Anmdt]

I disagree. The price range of 16x Mk41 VLS is between 35 to 48 million $.
The up-to-date price of a single 76mm cannon is 8.2 million euros(9.33 million $). The whole national 76mm cannon development project cost is 4.7 million $
Those two items alone will decrease the price of I class by 20 million $. That is %5 for a 400 million $ frigate.
An Atmaca costs 500k $ how much does a harpoon cost?

And I don't understand how a huge %18 tax exemption only contributes "a little". From bolts and nuts to sheet steel, from electronic warfare systems to generators this tax exemption will be applied to every item that will be used for the construction of I class ships(or any other defense industry project).

Savunma sanayisi projelerine ilişkin teslim ve hizmetlere KDV istisnası getirildi

Milli Savunma Bakanlığı veya Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca yürütülen projeler kapsamındaki teslim ve hizmetler için 25 Aralık 2021'den itibaren katma değer vergisi istisnası uygulanacak. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

You may check out to see the shipbuilding activities and associated items, purchases are already exempted from the VAT. This also applies to military orders.

The new exemption is more for the components that localization activities are carried out to make them competitive against the foreign ones.

This was my point on telling why it will have a little effect. Major part was already exempted of the VAT.

 

[Anmdt]

Sorry for my ignorance but isn't communicating with submerged underwater platforms is almost impossible? You may not need to control data collection platforms but how would it work for an attack submarine?

It is possible with;
Low frequency radio (1-Way)
Acoustic (Short to mid range, 1-way / 2-way)
Floating radio stations (2-way, satcom et al.)
Novel techniques are emerging.

 

[TheInsider]

You may check out to see the shipbuilding activities and associated items, purchases are already exempted from the VAT. This also applies to military orders.

The new exemption is more for the components that localization activities are carried out to make them competitive against the foreign ones.

This was my point on telling why it will have a little effect. Major part was already exempted of the VAT.

No. In the past, only final purchases is exempted from the tax. Now everything is taxless every single item or service, provided that they will be used for an SSB or MoD project.
Turkish subsystems, components, and main products are already very competitive against foreign components without the tax cut. There are very few items that are more expensive than their foreign counterpart.

Ada class Milgem was priced at 250million $ when the TL was very strong against dollar and Milgem had a sizeable foreign contribution back then as some national subsystems were not ready. If today we decide to build more Ada class corvettes don't be surprised when you see a price tag of just a little over 200 million $.

%40 reduction in Hisar class OPV budget should tell you and everybody on this forum something.

 

[Anmdt]

No. In the past, only final purchases is exempted from the tax. Now everything is taxless every single item or service, provided that they will be used for an SSB or MoD project.
Turkish subsystems, components, and main products are already very competitive against foreign components without the tax cut. There are very few items that are more expensive than their foreign counterpart.

Ada class Milgem was priced at 250million $ when the TL was very strong against dollar and Milgem had a sizeable foreign contribution back then as some national subsystems were not ready. If today we decide to build more Ada class corvettes don't be surprised when you see a price tag of just a little over 200 million $.

%40 reduction in Hisar class OPV budget should tell you and everybody on this forum something.

Ada class was 250M in 2013, the bid was given for FY2013.

Tax exemption affects purchases made related to naval platforms, thus it reflects on steel and nuts directly and this is in force since a long time. Recurring VAT is also dropped. The tax exemption will more reduce the R&D costs than it reflects on the actual product, and at the moment we are not really discussing the R&D costs or adding it on top of the actual product cost. If you have slightest idea on how much the Ada and I-Class R&D has costed then you may see how big will be the gain by removing the tax.

OPV cost reduction is not related to these matters at all It is simply re-evaluation of the needs, removal of certain weapons and conversion to optional, replacing CODAG with CODAE, removing advanced ESM and Radar, Tracking radar with mediocre and simple ones. Redefined mission profile has yielded to a simpler and optionally gunned platform.

I will not continue this further.

According to the latest situations, the VLS, MKE 76/62 will be seperately contracted between MSB and the supplier, thus the bid is going to be given for exemption of these systems and installation of those. So excluding those the bid will be around ~1B, add these and related installation activities on top of that. It surpasses 350 excluding Atmaca and air defense missiles to be supplied by Navy.

Also add 5 to 10% raise in price due to the simultaneous construction as announced by Erdogan.

 

[Saithan]

There is no need to argue on the prices as I see it or whatever.

The price will be whatever it is. For good and worse.

All I and others here care about is the laying of keel and the project advancing onwards. The economic situation must not hamper our projects.

 

[fq5n9v]

There is no need to argue on the prices as I see it or whatever.

The price will be whatever it is. For good and worse.

All I and others here care about is the laying of keel and the project advancing onwards. The economic situation must not hamper our projects.

Nothing we can do but I'm sure alot of people care if it's going to be a 7 billion USD or 5.4 billion USD deal. You can build 2 more ships with the difference. Also building a ship for 2/3 of the price others do is a proud thing for the defense industry.

 

[Fighter_35]

You can not build I class below 350 million usd , especially when you consider milgem without many equipments compared to i class. Only ship with out even cables costs at least 150-200 million USD. Check past Aselsan and havelsan combat management systems deals for milgem ships!! Add that numbers, add weapon system costs with local manufacturing pricess. There is engines costing at least 25-30 million USD ( gas turbine and diesel ones combined).
The ones saying below 300 million USD for i class lives in fairy tales!!