TR Naval Programs

[Turko]

BTW the first Belherra won't have Aster 30 as the French refrained. The second and third ships will have Aster 30 according to Kozan Selçuk's YouTube interview.

Good luck with old-gen Aster 15's while Türkiye is developing high-end ESSM equals. What you gonna do, when Turkish naval SAMs have AESA radar seekers? Who knows, our engineers even could use GaN AESA seekers
Range is not important .Function is important.

 

[Foulgrim]

You are right about everything you write except the following:
-FDI HN will not have the Missile de Croisière Naval (MdCN) cruise missiles in Anti-submarine warfare & Land Attack versions. The supply of Scalp Naval existed in a previous offer from the Naval Group which did not proceed in the end. That is why in the supply of ships there will be only the Sylver A-50 launcher & not the Sylver A-70 for the Scalp Naval.
-The 3 frigates will cost a total of 3 billion euros, ie 1 billion euros per ship and not 1.2 billion euros as you write. This cost of FDI HN frigates includes technical support, ship armament and training of Greek Navy officers.
- The FDI HN frigates will have 32 MBDA Aster 30 with a range of 120 km at a speed of 4.5 Mach and not a MBDA Aster 15 with a range of 30 km at a speed of 3.5 Mach.

ΑΠΟΚΛΕΙΣΤΙΚΟ: Οι 3 Belh@rra Helleniques θα κοστίσουν μόλις 3 δις ευρώ με όπλα και FOS! - Πτήση

Όπως όλα δείχνουν, η ελληνική πλευρά πήρε ένα κορυφαίο πλοίο, στην χαμηλότερη δυνατή τιμή. Το συμβόλαιο για τις 3 Belh@rra θα είναι ύψους 3 δις ευρώ, και θα περιλαμβάνει Follow On Support, φόρτο όπλων με συντελεστή μεγαλύτερο του 1, κέντρα εκπαίδευσης, εκπαίδευση των πληρωμάτων, κι όλα όσα...

www.ptisidiastima.com

 

[Akritas]

I think Greeks are over optimistic and wishful.

Sign first the contract and we will see on which the agreements are made, there is too much information rubbish produced by Greek forums and twitter accounts that many Greeks start to believe things like super FTDI for the lowest price.

Nice dreams but the French are everything but cheap. Either the specs that Greeks want to believe are not correct or the price they hope to pay.

Therefor talking on assumptions is a bit waste of time, wait for the signature and we'll see what the specs are

My list comes from an official announcement of the Naval Group.

Foulgrim said:
-The 3 frigates will cost a total of 3 billion euros, ie 1 billion euros per ship and not 1.2 billion euros as you write. This cost of FDI HN frigates includes technical support, ship armament and training of Greek Navy officers.

No, is much less that 1 billion euros.
e.g. only the Aster 30 block 1, cost: 2 mil x 32 missiles x 3 ships = 192 mil.
In this number does not include the stock, which of course is unknown, but is included in the price of 3 billion

BTW the first Belherra won't have Aster 30 as the French refrained. The second and third ships will have Aster 30 according to Kozan Selçuk's YouTube interview.

Good luck with old-gen Aster 15's while Türkiye is developing high-end ESSM equals. What you gonna do, when Turkish naval SAMs have AESA radar seekers? Who knows, our engineers even could use GaN AESA seekers
Range is not important .Function is important.

Is confirmed from that Naval Group, that the first Hellenic FDI , will equipped with the Aster 30.

 

[Atlas]

BTW the first Belherra won't have Aster 30 as the French refrained. The second and third ships will have Aster 30 according to Kozan Selçuk's YouTube interview.

Good luck with old-gen Aster 15's while Türkiye is developing high-end ESSM equals. What you gonna do, when Turkish naval SAMs have AESA radar seekers? Who knows, our engineers even could use GaN AESA seekers
Range is not important .Function is important.

The first one is for the FR navy, second and third one will be for the greek navy and yes, they gonna have Aster 30.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Bigger Business: Türkiye Unveils F142 Frigate Design

www.oryxspioenkop.com

If this site is worth to go by, Dearsan is aiming high !
Their F142 frigate design is anything but simple. 142m length, 18.5m beam with 5500ton weight it is an ambitious design.
It has all the bells and whistles that a modern frigate should have.
Just a thought; in stead of TF2000 at over 1billion dollars, would it not be more prudent and economical to have 2 of these with more of our goodies on board?

 

[Fairon]

Bigger Business: Türkiye Unveils F142 Frigate Design

www.oryxspioenkop.com

If this site is worth to go by, Dearsan is aiming high !
Their F142 frigate design is anything but simple. 142m length, 18.5m beam with 5500ton weight it is an ambitious design.
It has all the bells and whistles that a modern frigate should have.
Just a thought; in stead of TF2000 at over 1billion dollars, would it not be more prudent and economical to have 2 of these with more of our goodies on board?
View attachment 38612

How about both? We can reduce the number of TF2000's to 4 and order 8 of theese.

This way we can achive force increase and replace the Gabya's in more economic way. Also we wouldn't need to rush TF2000.

 

[Nutuk]

There is already confusion between the Greek members of this forum, like said there is too much information pollution that many Greeks hope for super FDI for the lowest price.

Foulgrim says: "2 × Sylver A50 8-cell VLS for MBDA Aster 30 and anti-submarine" (= 16 cell A50, can contain max 16 Aster 30 and less when also having anti submarine missiles)

Than Foulgrims says one post later: "The FDI HN frigates will have 32 MBDA Aster 30 with a range of 120 km at a speed of 4.5 Mach and not a MBDA Aster 15 with a range of 30 km at a speed of 3.5 Mach."



Now which one is it? How to fit 32 Aster-30 in 16 cell VLS?


In my opinion the French gave you a bottom price and the option to how many you can expand (with extra costs for expansion)

Therefor we can only know the true specs and the true price after the contract is signed, what we see now are a bunch of wild speculations. Sure I get it that nationalistic thoughts hope for the best, but that is not always realistic.

 

[fq5n9v]

Just a thought; in stead of TF2000 at over 1billion dollars, would it not be more prudent and economical to have 2 of these with more of our goodies on board

Over 1 billion USD seems unreasonably high for TF-2000. It would roughly have same cost as a Horizon class FREMM. Shouldn't it be lower at around 800 million range?


Also this thread is becoming a pissing contest between Greek FDI and Istif class.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Over 1 billion USD seems unreasonably high for TF-2000. It would roughly have same cost as a Horizon class FREMM. Shouldn't it be lower at around 800 million range?


Also this thread is becoming a pissing contest between Greek FDI and Istif class.

Turkey - Navy - TF 2000 Project

www.globalsecurity.org

And many other sites quote the same price.
As more and more indiginous weapons platforms are used, the cost may comedown. But if I remember correctly, that Cafrad is best part it of 400 million on its own. Then as new technologies become available TN may require these too. VLS uses 64 missiles where each missile could be as much as 2 million dollars. (Aster30 missile is over 2 million each). Two seahawk helicopters - or 2 t-929 will be over 100 million. Need I go further?

Rüya projenin beyni buldu, GÖKSU vurdu | STAR

TF-2000 hava savunma harbi muhribimizin çekirdeğini oluşturacak gelişmiş Çok Amaçlı Faz Dizinli Radar CAFRAD'ın test grubu, TCG Göksu fırkateyninin helikopter pistinde denize açıldı ve ilk testini başarıyla gerçekleştirdi. ÇAFRAD ile aydınlatılan hedef İHA, Hava savunma füzesi ile vuruldu

www.star.com.tr

 

[TheInsider]

That price is totally impossible.
I-Class should be around 350-400million dollars. That would include the VLS and the missiles. Siper can be more expensive. But if we don’t include development costs MILDAS should be cheaper than MK41 which was included in the original I-Class.
Aster 30 missiles cost around 2 million dollars each. Our Siper missiles should be cheaper.
A SAMP/T battery has three truck-mounted elements: an Arabel multi-function radar, a command-and-control vehicle, and four or six launch vehicles each carrying eight boxy vertical launch canisters with a missile inside ready for launch. (That is 32 to 48 missiles)
And each battery costs around 500million dollars.
You do the math!
There is no way a Belharra is going to carry 8 Aster30 missiles and they will be worth 1.2 billion Euros. (Even with 32 Aster30s that is around 64million dollars)
Those figures are most likely the development costs. According to some reports the development cost of Hisar A was more expensive at 332 million dollars than Hisar O at 255million dollars.

Europe Has Its Very Own Missile Defense System

The Aster missile defense idea might end up being a victim of politics.

nationalinterest.org

HISAR / T-LALAMIDS / T-MALAMIDS

www.globalsecurity.org

Is it though? From what I heard both Milgem and I class price tag came down a lot. The price of Milgem and İ class differs a lot when we are building it for our navy. Even with a full weapons load, i class won't pass 300 million dollar mark that is why we are able to build 3 of them at the same time. What kept us from building ships at the same time was budgetary constraints not a lack of shipbuilding capacity. Nationalizing VLS, air defense missiles, main cannon, and CIWS systems contributed a lot to the price.

BTW TF-2000 will not cost 1 billion. That price was the output of the early analysis. TF-2000 changed a lot from that time. Siper replaced SM-2 or Aster-30. VLS, main gun, CIWS, air-defense missiles are nationalized. The most expensive part of the TF-2000. CAFRAD radar will use second-generation national GaN modules that are a lot cheaper to produce and has less defect rate. Even the gas turbine of the ship will have a good national contribution. TEI will have a good work share.

The target is building all 4 i classes around Greeks getting the first or second Belharra and delivering the first TF-2000 when Greeks get the last Belharra. This is a strong message to them you can't outbuy us but we will always be outproducing you.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is it though? From what I heard both Milgem and I class price tag came down a lot. The price of Milgem and İ class differs a lot when we are building it for our navy. Even with a full weapons load, i class won't pass 300 million dollar mark that is why we are able to build 3 of them at the same time. What kept us from building ships at the same time was budgetary constraints not a lack of shipbuilding capacity. Nationalizing VLS, air defense missiles, main cannon, and CIWS systems contributed a lot to the price.

BTW TF-2000 will not cost 1 billion. That price was the output of the early analysis. TF-2000 change a lot from that time. Siper replace SM-2 or Aster-30. VLS, main gun, CIWS, air-defense missiles are nationalized. The most expensive part of the TF-2000. CAFRAD radar will use second-generation national GaN modules that are a lot cheaper to produce and has less defect rate. Even the gas turbine of the ship will have a good national contribution. TEI will have a good work share.

Exactly! That is what I am saying. It can’t cost more than 350-400 million.
I wrote that as response to @Oublious ‘s comment :
”I think the price is not correct, the ship with sensor package would cost 400m dollar, with weapon package it could cost maybe 700 to 800 million dollar. Still cheaper then the France.”

So in essence we saying the same thing.
re : tf2000
I did say the inclusion of indigenously produced parts and weapons would bring the price down.
But to say outright that it will not cost 1 billion dollar is a bit prophetic this day and age. It could even be more, especially if there are entities skimming the cream!
Logically it should be below that figure. Yes.
Especially if what they have claimed with OPV costs is true, as they say they managed to bring down cost price by 40% of the expected budget by using locally produced parts and equipment.

 

[Anmdt]

Exactly! That is what I am saying. It can’t cost more than 350-400 million.
I wrote that as response to @Oublious ‘s comment :
”I think the price is not correct, the ship with sensor package would cost 400m dollar, with weapon package it could cost maybe 700 to 800 million dollar. Still cheaper then the France.”

So in essence we saying the same thing.
re : tf2000
I did say the inclusion of indigenously produced parts and weapons would bring the price down.
But to say outright that it will not cost 1 billion dollar is a bit prophetic this day and age. It could even be more, especially if there are entities skimming the cream!
Logically it should be below that figure. Yes.
Especially if what they have claimed with OPV costs is true, as they say they managed to bring down cost price by 40% of the expected budget by using locally produced parts and equipment.

1. Dont forget inflation while speaking about 10 to 20 year differences.

2. Chinese, with all subsidization on steel, electricity, natural resources, cheaper workmanship et al. provided to the shipyards and electronic manufacturer produces Type 052D for nearly as much as $500M (possibly excluding the missiles in the VLS, also a price tag from 12 years ago), a ship that is definitely inferior to TF-2000 in many levels. I don't think Turkey subsidizes any of those sources, nor have cheaper labor prices compared to chinese shipyards.

3. For I-Class, the electronics on the I-Class is in folds compared to the Ada-Class (i have earlier listed those). It will not double the Ada Class in price but it won't be cheap as 300M.

Price calculation is a hefty job, the prices we hear are or read on the internet sometimes;
- bare (nothing but the main gun as a weapon + CIWS)
- includes basic weapons (main gun + AShM, Stabilized turret)
- includes weapons + missiles + spares as much as the loaded ones,
- includes training,
- includes maintenance for 5/10 years of the entire hull.
- Includes helicopter and other assets to be carried by the ship.

Which prices are we talking about? Those may vary the prices from 0.7x to 2x.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Bigger Business: Türkiye Unveils F142 Frigate Design

www.oryxspioenkop.com

If this site is worth to go by, Dearsan is aiming high !
Their F142 frigate design is anything but simple. 142m length, 18.5m beam with 5500ton weight it is an ambitious design.
It has all the bells and whistles that a modern frigate should have.
Just a thought; in stead of TF2000 at over 1billion dollars, would it not be more prudent and economical to have 2 of these with more of our goodies on board?
View attachment 38612

Can dearsan meet the navy requiments? This could be the middle gap i was talking about that could be betweeen the 2400 ton ada class and 8500 ton tf-2000. Iknow that dearsan did not have this project set up so they could not make a bid in the tender of the i-class.

 

[fq5n9v]

Can dearsan meet the navy requiments? This could be the middle gap i was talking about that could be betweeen the 2400 ton ada class and 8500 ton tf-2000. Iknow that dearsan did not have this project set up so they could not make a bid in the tender of the i-class.

There will be I-class betwen Ada and TF-2000.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

There will be I-class betwen Ada and TF-2000.

Sorry i meant between i-class 3000 tons and the tf-2000.

 

[fq5n9v]

Sorry i meant between i-class 3000 tons and the tf-2000.

I've asked about that at page 134 and answers are at page 135

 

[Oryx]

From Atak To TF-2000: 100 Years Of Turkish Naval Shipbuilding​

From Atak To TF-2000: 100 Years Of Turkish Naval Shipbuilding

www.oryxspioenkop.com

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I've asked about that at page 134 and answers are at page 135

I took a look but it dont have any information regarding the difference between a state project owned by SSB, and a private shipyard like dearsan. Dearsan unveiled its new 5500 ton frigate, and i was wondering if they have the capability to meet the navy requirments of the turkish navy.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I took a look but it dont have any information regarding the difference between a state project owned by SSB, and a private shipyard like dearsan. Dearsan unveiled its new 5500 ton frigate, and i was wondering if they have the capability to meet the navy requirments of the turkish navy.

They have produced 16 Tuzla class patrol boats for Turkish navy and sold 10 more to Turkmenistan. They have also produced a 1600ton 91m long. Corvette for Turkmenistan called DenizHan.
They are fully capable to produce to TN Standards.

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

They have produced 16 Tuzla class patrol boats for Turkish navy and sold 10 more to Turkmenistan. They have also produced a 1600ton 91m long. Corvette for Turkmenistan called DenizHan.

I took a look, the denizhan corvette look nice! Hopefully dearsan can provide some fruitfull competetion in the future tenders.