TR Naval Programs

[hawk21]

is it feasible to evolve the STM-500 into a large unmanned submarine by removing the crew, making it capable of working autonomously in a distributed swarm of unmanned surface and subsurface assets?

@Anmdt @Tayfun Ozberk

 

[Tayfun Ozberk]

is it feasible to evolve the STM-500 into a large unmanned submarine by removing the crew, making it capable of working autonomously in a distributed swarm of unmanned surface and subsurface assets?

@Anmdt @Tayfun Ozberk

Unmanned submarine technology is a different case. Although the structure of the boat could be similar, there are major challenges in developing unmanned submarines, with communications being the biggest problem and the autonomous solution not seeming safe enough to use in a real-world application. Although UUVs are already used in some naval applications such as mine hunting or underwater exploration, developing a UUV that can perform submarine tasks doesn't seem feasible with current technology.

You can read my relevant article on this link: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/insansız-denizaltılar-mümkün-mü-tayfun-özberk/

The article is in Turkish, but I believe that Google Translate can do a good job on it.

 

[Anmdt]

The STM500 is a platform developed to radically change the rules of the game, especially in shallow waters with plenty of islands such as the Aegean. A 500ton submarine with a Li-ion battery, capable of 18+kts speed, reaching 4500+nm and staying in the sea for 30 days, with 4 spare Akya HWT or Atmaca SSM next to 4 ready to launch Akya torpedoes, will be the main reason for enemy to shed sweat from fear.

Since these submarines can be produced in large numbers in a short time compared to the ones with relatively large displacement and their detectability is very difficult, they will be a nightmare for the enemy in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean.

I really congratulate STM. I wish success to our perfect engineers working on this project and MILDEN as well.

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A small step towards the bigger goal, this is so far sample production of pressure hull to undergo tests necessary for withstanding operational conditions and obtaining sufficient construction quality. SSB has a break down of project components to launch by schedule. 48 months is aimed for completion of the construction operations but my expectation is about 8 years to mature and gain full operational capability.

As some abilities are gained through this platform it will make its way towards Milden.

is it feasible to evolve the STM-500 into a large unmanned submarine by removing the crew, making it capable of working autonomously in a distributed swarm of unmanned surface and subsurface assets?

@Anmdt @Tayfun Ozberk

That is not a feasible size (as of now) for an unmanned submarine and beyond of our capabilities, underwater navigation is a challenging field and even manned submarines have issues with it sometimes during deep-water voyage or surfacing. Foremost duty of unmanned submarines are going to be forward sensor roles instead of strike duties.

We will see a roadmap as US has followed starting from small UUV-AUVs and leading to L and XL UUVs.

Indeed. My guess is that there will be a very intense demand from brother Turk states neighboring Caspian Sea to counter Iranian threat. At the same time, it will be a platform for states that cannot afford large-scale submarines or naval fleets would also like to have.

Previously, STM had signed a contract with Pakistan for development of a midget submarine. Presumably, Pakistan will be eager to replace their obsolete small submarines with STM500.

Apart from this, a small 33m submarine (STM500-42m) named LSUB-33, which is lighter than the STM500, was designed by the Dearsan shipyard. The LSUB33 has a speed of 10kts and a diving depth of 150m. This submarine can also be evaluated by the TN or export markets.

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Dearsan's sub has already got an order, i guess .
But to add further, Dearsan's sub is in easy category compared to the STM500. It may be completed earlier than STM500 both in design and construction. (Also depth and operational conditions are far relaxed)

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Dearsan multi-purpose seal submarine and Autonomous Underwater Vehicle @Anmdt @Tayfun Ozberk @Nutuk

 

[Saithan]

Unmanned submarine technology is a different case. Although the structure of the boat could be similar, there are major challenges in developing unmanned submarines, with communications being the biggest problem and the autonomous solution not seeming safe enough to use in a real-world application. Although UUVs are already used in some naval applications such as mine hunting or underwater exploration, developing a UUV that can perform submarine tasks doesn't seem feasible with current technology.

You can read my relevant article on this link: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/insansız-denizaltılar-mümkün-mü-tayfun-özberk/

The article is in Turkish, but I believe that Google Translate can do a good job on it.

Knowing communications to be a challenge. Do we have anyone producing smart buoys. I’ve mentioned it a few times in the past. But a network of smart buoys that can function as relay points could be a coordinate system of sorts.
A bit like how the japanese use them in the movie battleship.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Knowing communications to be a challenge. Do we have anyone producing smart buoys. I’ve mentioned it a few times in the past. But a network of smart buoys that can function as relay points could be a coordinate system of sorts.
A bit like how the japanese use them in the movie battleship.

Something like this? it could be modified as relay buoys.

KoçSavunma Presented Its Solutions for Coastal Security | savunmahaber.com

KoçSavunma highlighted its ECHORIUM Diver Detection Sonar and smart buoys in MRBS’21. ECHORIUM has various models named DD70, DD60, DD45, and PDD70. The sonars can automatically detect, track…

www.savunmahaber.com

 

[Saithan]

Something like this? it could be modified as relay buoys.

KoçSavunma Presented Its Solutions for Coastal Security | savunmahaber.com

KoçSavunma highlighted its ECHORIUM Diver Detection Sonar and smart buoys in MRBS’21. ECHORIUM has various models named DD70, DD60, DD45, and PDD70. The sonars can automatically detect, track…

www.savunmahaber.com

View attachment 45398

Yes. While I’m certain it would be good to have aselsan involved in this project I think having these buoys used for beneficial projects could be an excuse to implement them. And the military grade buoys could be used in networkcentric setup. Being our feelers in Mavi Vatan.

 

[CAN_TR]

After STM's homepage it will have 2 Diesel generators and Lithium-Ion batteries, AIP is optional.

The last two submarines of the Japanese Soryu-class (JS Oryu and Toryu) replaced the AIP Stirling engines with Lithium-Ion batteries. Does STM following a similar path?

 

[Huelague]

Yes because i remember when the Turkish Navy was trying to help the GNA capture Alwatia airbase i asked some turks like why not just clap them with some cruise missiles they said Turkey doesn't have them, i was like how a massive Navy like that doesn't have cruise missiles!

This job can partially be done by SOM.

 

[Yasar_TR]

This job can partially be done by SOM.

I guess by “partially” you mean as SOM is air launched only. So to hit land targets in Libya, F16 or F4 planes would have had to travel close enough to launch the SOM missile.
But with land Atmaca coming in to play, they can be launched from naval platforms to hit land targets 280km away with pinpoint accuracy as long as the Turkish Navy has these slightly longer missiles integrated on to our frigates and corvettes.

 

[Nutuk]

An idea burning in my head I like to throw here in the group

How far is it possible to use gokdogan missile (with booster) on ships. I mean there are already ideas to have a system like NASAMS with Gokdogan / Bozdogan missiles. Why not apply it on ships?

 

[Quasar]

An idea burning in my head I like to throw here in the group

How far is it possible to use gokdogan missile (with booster) on ships. I mean there are already ideas to have a system like NASAMS with Gokdogan / Bozdogan missiles. Why not apply it on ships?

What advantages gokdogan missile (with booster) may have over HİSAR -RF or SİPER B1? a chance to load multiple missiles per a VLS cell? İmpressive enough we have multiple candidates and as you stated we may even come up with more options, İf I am not wrong SAGE already stated that there can be a land variant of Gokdoğan and G40/60 . From now on I belive for the naval platforms the main emphasize will be on dual or quad packing of missiles since limited number of VLS cells that we have are deadly precious.

 

[Nutuk]

What advantages gokdogan missile (with booster) may have over HİSAR -RF or SİPER B1? a chance to load multiple missiles per a VLS cell? İmpressive enough we have multiple candidates and as you stated we may even come up with more options, İf I am not wrong SAGE already stated that there can be a land variant of Gokdoğan . From now on I belive for the naval platforms the main emphasize will be on dual or quad packing of missiles since limited number of VLS cells that we have are deadly precious.

I was thinking about use of slanted launchers instead of ASM missile you can use Gökdogan with booster. So Milgem ships won't need big changes to use AD missiles, same for the upgraded Meko ships.

Both Milgem and Meko have 2x4 ASM launchers, easy to switch to 1x4 for ASM and 1x4 for Gökdogan. We cannot integrate any other missile to the Meko VLS launchers (those will keep the ESSM)

 

[UkroTurk]

Except Sea Ceptor ( min range 1 km), vertically launched SAMs have very limited minumum range so they are less efficient against cruise missiles. I would prefer solid point defence on frigates.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I was thinking about use of slanted launchers instead of ASM missile you can use Gökdogan with booster. So Milgem ships won't need big changes to use AD missiles, same for the upgraded Meko ships.

Both Milgem and Meko have 2x4 ASM launchers, easy to switch to 1x4 for ASM and 1x4 for Gökdogan. We cannot integrate any other missile to the Meko VLS launchers (those will keep the ESSM)

Idea is sound. But what advantage will it bring?
Will it not effectively cut the number of available Anti Ship Missiles by half?
ESSMs are proven and effective missiles. But they are single stage solid fuelled 4mach missiles that have limited range and altitude that lose their speed and kinetic energy towards the terminal stage of their journey.
Theoretically and technologically the Hisar range with dual pulse engines are superior as air defence missiles. Presumably that is why TSK has chosen this technology and to have a better kill capability. Dual pulse engined Hisar missile, burn first portion of their fuel and reach 3+Mach speed after launch. Then it starts to lose momentum. After acquiring the target, it starts to burn the second portion of fuel to reach 4mach speed, and for the terminal stage to give no escape chance to the target.
I , however, agree with you in the use of Bozdogan based surface launched anti air missiles for our indigenous RAM alternatives like Levent or Gokdeniz ER

 

[Quasar]

Idea is sound. But what advantage will it bring?
Will it not effectively cut the number of available Anti Ship Missiles by half?
ESSMs are proven and effective missiles. But they are single stage solid fuelled 4mach missiles that have limited range and altitude that lose their speed and kinetic energy towards the terminal stage of their journey.
Theoretically and technologically the Hisar range with dual pulse engines are superior as air defence missiles. Presumably that is why TSK has chosen this technology and to have a better kill capability. Dual pulse engined missiles, burn first portion of their fuel and reach 3+Mach speed after launch. Then it starts to lose momentum. After acquiring the target, it starts to burn the second portion of fuel to reach 4mach speed, and for the terminal stage to give no escape chance to the target.
I , however, agree with you in the use of Bozdogan based surface launched anti air missiles for our indigenous RAM alternative .

Guess Since US already have SM series, the mission envisaged for ESSM is a bit diffrent for US compared to us. guess quadpacking ESSM and having the numbers was the main concern for ESSM

 

[Nutuk]

Idea is sound. But what advantage will it bring?
Will it not effectively cut the number of available Anti Ship Missiles by half?
ESSMs are proven and effective missiles. But they are single stage solid fuelled 4mach missiles that have limited range and altitude that lose their speed and kinetic energy towards the terminal stage of their journey.
Theoretically and technologically the Hisar range with dual pulse engines are superior as air defence missiles. Presumably that is why TSK has chosen this technology and to have a better kill capability. Dual pulse engined Hisar missile, burn first portion of their fuel and reach 3+Mach speed after launch. Then it starts to lose momentum. After acquiring the target, it starts to burn the second portion of fuel to reach 4mach speed, and for the terminal stage to give no escape chance to the target.
I , however, agree with you in the use of Bozdogan based surface launched anti air missiles for our indigenous RAM alternative .

Advantage it will bring is (assuming it is possible) Medium range AD missile with Medium altitude without huge cost of integration. ESSM is a good missile but for low altitude.

Second point is the MK41VLS, as you know it is difficult if not impossible to have other missiles integrated on the Barbaros class. Using space for ASM missiles is a solution, not ideal but do ships always need 8x ASM? Evenly needed is a good protection in AD.

Hisar missile is good provided it can be shot from the ASM launchers.

Anyway my purpose is not to promote the idea for Gokdogan missile in particular but the use of ASM launchers in alternative way to install at least 4 medium range, medium altitude AD missiles mission specific on Milgem corvettes and Barbaros light frigates. Missile can be Gokdogan or Siper as long as the ASM launcher space can be used.

 

[Quasar]

2 x 6 Hisar

 

[Anmdt]

After STM's homepage it will have 2 Diesel generators and Lithium-Ion batteries, AIP is optional.

The last two submarines of the Japanese Soryu-class (JS Oryu and Toryu) replaced the AIP Stirling engines with Lithium-Ion batteries. Does STM following a similar path?

It will have Li-Ion from scratch. That is what giving these light submarines a comeback after years; High density Li-Ion batteries.

An idea burning in my head I like to throw here in the group

How far is it possible to use gokdogan missile (with booster) on ships. I mean there are already ideas to have a system like NASAMS with Gokdogan / Bozdogan missiles. Why not apply it on ships?

Quite possible, SAGE has made several concept submissions to the Turkish Navy but still nothing came out officially. Taiwan currently benefiting from this, deploying SR-SAM / MR-SAM in 16 in place of 4 AShM canisters.

View attachment 45485

2 x 6 Hisar

Gave my comments on this earlier, STM deploys French VL-MICA on Ukranian Ada class in similar spot but adjacent to the helicopter hangar. If used this way (as in the concept published there) exhausts should be wrapped onto sides of launchers and given to top to prevent deck penetration. Still lands us with a similar concept of what STM has applied.

Possibly Milgem's MLU will have 16 Hisar-RF deployed similar to the Hisar-Class OPV's individual 8 pack launcher. They will find a way to fit those.

Advantage it will bring is (assuming it is possible) Medium range AD missile with Medium altitude without huge cost of integration. ESSM is a good missile but for low altitude.

Second point is the MK41VLS, as you know it is difficult if not impossible to have other missiles integrated on the Barbaros class. Using space for ASM missiles is a solution, not ideal but do ships always need 8x ASM? Evenly needed is a good protection in AD.

Hisar missile is good provided it can be shot from the ASM launchers.

Anyway my purpose is not to promote the idea for Gokdogan missile in particular but the use of ASM launchers in alternative way to install at least 4 medium range, medium altitude AD missiles mission specific on Milgem corvettes and Barbaros light frigates. Missile can be Gokdogan or Siper as long as the ASM launcher space can be used.

This should be done not just to allow Ada-Class and frigates to carry AD missiles but also the fast attack crafts and patrol boats via common oblique AShM launchers. That would be nice if a FAC (let's say TTHB or whatever it becomes) equipped with 8 AShM and 2+2 quad packed Gökdoğan with booster (tagged as G40/60 by SAGE). That common launcher interface should be benefitted more but it first requires some ability on quad-packing and it is Roketsan's responsilbiity now as part of the MDAS contract.

View attachment 45485

2 x 6 Hisar

2 year ago @UkroTurk came with a similar idea (Defence Turk was later than our forum );

Personal concepts - Sea

Av-8 harriers are blamed for being subsonic. What if you put second engine vertically:) british electric lightning ( mach2 speed) has vertical two engine. You just add lift nozzles to the bottom engine and get a supersonic vtol fighter. Hehe, but did you account for the CofG of the lightning...

defencehub.live

Whatever they are going to mount on Ada-Class or others better be compact as this launching system with minimal deck penetration and modification.

Then i improved the idea a bit with proper VL systems;

Personal concepts - Sea

Av-8 harriers are blamed for being subsonic. What if you put second engine vertically:) british electric lightning ( mach2 speed) has vertical two engine. You just add lift nozzles to the bottom engine and get a supersonic vtol fighter. Hehe, but did you account for the CofG of the lightning...

defencehub.live

 

[Yasar_TR]

Advantage it will bring is (assuming it is possible) Medium range AD missile with Medium altitude without huge cost of integration. ESSM is a good missile but for low altitude.

Second point is the MK41VLS, as you know it is difficult if not impossible to have other missiles integrated on the Barbaros class. Using space for ASM missiles is a solution, not ideal but do ships always need 8x ASM? Evenly needed is a good protection in AD.

Hisar missile is good provided it can be shot from the ASM launchers.

Anyway my purpose is not to promote the idea for Gokdogan missile in particular but the use of ASM launchers in alternative way to install at least 4 medium range, medium altitude AD missiles mission specific on Milgem corvettes and Barbaros light frigates. Missile can be Gokdogan or Siper as long as the ASM launcher space can be used.

I guess the Turkish Navy will weigh all possibilities and go for optimum choice. This I feel will be more inclined towards a most effective and cost conscious decision.
It would also be a good choice if they would incorporate launching Land Atmaca from those ASM launchers. Since the length of the Land Atmaca is longer and it is really intended for stationary land targets, it may need to be integrated in to a ship’s system. But for taking out high value land targets from far away, it is an asset to consider.