TR Naval Programs

CAN_TR

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A lot of blah blah for nothing, the construction of the hull for the 5 & 6th Reis-class are still ongoing why should we abondon it now?

I bet my left friend on it that the source is that trash article from HaberDenizde.com
 

BalkanTurk90

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A lot of blah blah for nothing, the construction of the hull for the 5 & 6th Reis-class are still ongoing why should we abondon it now?

I bet my left friend on it that the source is that trash article from HaberDenizde.com
I aslo agree that this news if is true will not affect Reis class since 6 all of them are U/C
But i belive Turkiye want to take this S 80 tech and add partly to Milden project and Milden can be partly based on S80 submarine but some differencies just like Reis class that is 70% national but Milden will be 90+ national and ONLY some componnents will be based on S80
This is what i want to belive .
- 8 Milden 82 meter
- 6 Milden 95 meter VLS
 

Anmdt

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I aslo agree that this news if is true will not affect Reis class since 6 all of them are U/C
But i belive Turkiye want to take this S 80 tech and add partly to Milden project and Milden can be partly based on S80 submarine but some differencies just like Reis class that is 70% national but Milden will be 90+ national and ONLY some componnents will be based on S80
This is what i want to belive .
- 8 Milden 82 meter
- 6 Milden 95 meter VLS
We don't necessarily need S80 tech to accelarate Milden program, we need Navantia's expertise to accelarate detail design stage and production engineering stage.
 

BaburKhan

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Turkey built the STM-500 as far Iknow, is it not possible gain experience with this Project ?
 

TR_123456

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We don't necessarily need S80 tech to accelarate Milden program, we need Navantia's expertise to accelarate detail design stage and production engineering stage.
Could it be that Spain just wants to outsource the building process of the S80(light hull & pressure hull) for financial(cheaper in Türkiye) reasons?
 

dBSPL

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The S-80 was probably the project that pushed Navantia to its limits the most. In fact, the Australian LHD project was more acceptable compared to the technical and planning problems Spain faced in the production of the S-80. I don't remember all the details, but I remember that one of the main factors that multiplied the problems was that Spain started the construction of 3 submarines at the same time. While 20 years of torture is a very unpleasant memory for the Spanish navy, I think the most important question is what it has brought to Navantia and the other subcontractors and engineering offices involved in the project. Can we transfer this experience to MILDEN? In the context of the current intergovernmental relations and more importantly the geopolitics and common interests of the two countries, the answer could be yes.

There is another thing: The Turkish aircraft carrier (an unnamed but announced project by highest authority ) will also proceed with Navantia's expertise support. So we can talk about 'injecting' lot of money to third parties for collaborations. And this can opens many other doors. For both sides. Navantia has been paying close attention to all TN projects, big and small, for nearly 15 years. It is necessary to think about its reason, on a broader European scale, including DCNS, Fincantieri, TKMS.

The Turkish navy is planning to evolve, what I mean that from the current brand new LHD to a more advanced air operations platform, to an astronomical number of guided missile destroyers and later, frigates, if your scale is not the US or China, to modern AIP submarines, probably much heavier displacement, one step beyond the T-214, to a blue-water navy in general, both for special purposes or 'diplomacy'. Moreover, while the Turkish shipbuilding industry is already Europe's most important business partner in civilian specialized and high-tech ships, it is now trying to fulfill orders for military ships from Nigeria to Turkmenistan, Pakistan to Ukraine. For now, the orders are mostly for combatant or offshore patrol corvettes, but in a few years the majority of the order books will be frigates and perhaps submarines. The built-in capacity formed here is showing its effect very quickly in foreign markets as well. If you can get in the game here, or even better, if you are the only major partner here, it can create rapid project expansion and diversity without being dependent on projects that are supported by the defense ministry of the state to which the company belongs.
 
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TheInsider

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Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems. This news is an answer to that. Israel is behind this. Israel is pushing Germany to cancel the Reis project. Israel acted after Erdo slammed Netanyahu and Israel over the Gaza campaign.

Let's face it without Germany we will eventually come to a state where we can't maintain Reis class subs. We are still dependent on Germany even though a lot of subsystems are Turkish-made.

Why S-80? Because Navantia is willing to work with us. At this point, S-80 is more or less a mature project. Milden needs a lot of time.
 

Afif

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Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems. This news is an answer to that. Israel is behind this. Israel is pushing Germany to cancel the Reis project. Israel acted after Erdo slammed Netanyahu and Israel over the Gaza campaign.

Let's face it without Germany we will eventually come to a state where we can't maintain Reis class subs. We are still dependent on Germany even though a lot of subsystems are Turkish-made.

Why S-80? Because Navantia is willing to work with us. At this point, S-80 is more or less a mature project. Milden needs a lot of time.

That would be a significant escalation from Germany. Not exporting new stuff is not the same as canceling a vital contract halfway.
 

BalkanTurk90

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Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems. This news is an answer to that. Israel is behind this. Israel is pushing Germany to cancel the Reis project. Israel acted after Erdo slammed Netanyahu and Israel over the Gaza campaign.

Let's face it without Germany we will eventually come to a state where we can't maintain Reis class subs. We are still dependent on Germany even though a lot of subsystems are Turkish-made.

Why S-80? Because Navantia is willing to work with us. At this point, S-80 is more or less a mature project. Milden needs a lot of time.
But Germany sign the deal about submarine if they dont continue than they can be sued and pay huge penalties ,they even pay millions about delay .
I dont think germans will abordon the deal for israel or they are so stupid?!
 

Merzifonlu

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Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems.
I think this situation was already expected by us. On the other hand, I think the Germans were just looking for an excuse. Both sides, Germany and Turkiye, have already agreed to end their "marriage" in military technology. The sooner it happens, the better for us. It should not be like the Altay incident, it is enough.

Let me say in advance that this incident will not be limited to trade involving military technology. We will all see that civilian trade between Germany and Turkiye will gradually decrease to marginal amounts over the coming decades. Because you won't take anything vital for you from someone you don't trust, especially if you can produce the same thing yourself.

Since military technology is the most vital thing, the chain breaks at its weakest link, that is, trade involving military technology disappears first.
 
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Afif

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S-80 AIP system is a American one :D, do we have our own AIP?

Actually, Spain has been developing an indeginous one for quite a while now to get rid of any export restrictions.
 

Yasar_TR

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S-80 AIP system is an American one :D, do we have our own AIP?
The AIP system S80 uses is by provided by Hynergreen in Sevilla - Spain of Abengoa. Abengoa is a large Spanish company that operates in more than 80 countries; albeit having some financial difficulties in recent years. Fuel Cells are from UTC Power of USA.

Regarding Turkish AIP system: There is TOT happening at the moment. And here is a run down of what it entails:

There is a sort of JV in place between German HDW-MFI Joint Venture, HAVELSAN, ASELSAN, TUBITAK, STM AS, AYESAS, Milsoft, Meteksan Defense and KOÇ Information Defense companies whereby they will produce various systems and equipment of REIS submarines. In addition, many local companies will supply auxiliaries such as electrical cables, fittings, steel sheet and profile materials.

Following the completion of the REIS project, Gölcük Shipyard Command will have the ability to build technology including submarines with a propulsion system independent from the air, including the torpedo section, and as a result of the investments will gain the 'vertical construction' of submarine blocks. In addition, the knowledge and technological capability to be obtained within the scope of the project is expected to lead the beginning of a 'national' MILDEN submarine program.

But there is always the choice of going the “Japanese Route”.
Japanese with their last two Sōryū Class ships have done away with the AIP Systems and gone the conventional Diesel-to-Battery power route. But instead of the acid batteries they have chosen Li-Ion batteries. Li-Ion batteries they use can provide much higher current levels and sustain the power drain for a longer time period. Hence the submarines can stay submerged up to 7 to 10 days and can travel faster than AIP powered subs. Also they can speed up quicker. Japanese submarine captains prefer to leave battle area quickly after delivering their torpedo or missiles loads.

Even though the AIP system in REIS class is supposed to give you 2-3 weeks submergibility, the speed it can provide is low (4 to 8 knots) . Yet S80’s submergibility is given as 30-55 days. This needs to be investigated! The technology behind the development of the S80’s AIP, is state-of-the-art and is the first submarine that can generate the required hydrogen on demand, increasing hydrogen availability while enhancing safety.

 

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the speed it can provide is low (4 to 8 knots)
The logic behind is plain, those speeds are silent. A submarine dives if she wants to travel at a higher speed, thus snorkel exists.
Could it be that Spain just wants to outsource the building process of the S80(light hull & pressure hull) for financial(cheaper in Türkiye) reasons?
This is valid for LHD (not for their own) but i am doubting for the pressure hull. ToT, training and equipment transfer for pressure hull production (or S80's diameter) is a lot more than LHD steel production. And to emphasize, pressure hull construction - alone takes a small fraction of time and budget.

There is a sort of JV in place between German HDW-MFI Joint Venture, HAVELSAN, ASELSAN, TUBITAK, STM AS, AYESAS, Milsoft, Meteksan Defense and KOÇ Information Defense companies whereby they will produce various systems and equipment of REIS submarines. In addition, many local companies will supply auxiliaries such as electrical cables, fittings, steel sheet and profile materials.
ToT regarding to PEM cells are minimal, in core-tech of the AIP system none exists. Even if there might be some claiming 'AIP system has this much local production' it is the brute and coarse part of AIP (mounts, structural integration, cables as you have also referred etc.).
 

Anmdt

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You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:


1699872006266.jpeg


1699872266457.jpeg


Yeah bro, we are getting S80:

Within the scope of the project, a water-cooled electric motor, which will also be used in manned/unmanned submarines to be developed domestically in Turkey, has been developed indigenously by Femsan DC motor company and certified by Türk Loydu. Preliminary studies have been carried out for the integration of submarine sonars developed by Aselsan, lightweight torpedoes developed by Roketsan and hydrogen fuel cell developed by Aspilsan into the Multi-Purpose Mini Submarine.

There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.
 

boredaf

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You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:


View attachment 62909

View attachment 62910

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:



There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.
I really like what I'm seeing, though I'm curious about placement of torpedoes, it looks like it is right were crew is shown in the diagram. Can't wait to see the finished product.

Btw, you really think we're getting S80? Engine is great news and can be tied to S80, if we develop a bigger version I guess, but that would suggest there is a major problem somewhere either Reis project or something changed with MİLDEN, wouldn't it?
 

UkroTurk

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You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:


View attachment 62909

View attachment 62910

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:



There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.
🔥 Flames,Fire, Salute...

2 big news.

Midget submarine has Orka light weight torpedos(324mm 25km range), Zoka countermeasures, different types of sonars. Amazing.
I am hundred percent sure, other countries will be waiting in long que for purchase. Especially Ukraine, Qatar, OAE, KSA, Türkmenistan, Marocco, Tunus, Albania will be first customers.

@Anmdt need to pass this information to H.I. Sutton

I have no clue about Spanish sub, what would bring into TN i cant even imagine.
 
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