TR Navy Naval Programs

[Afif]

Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems. This news is an answer to that. Israel is behind this. Israel is pushing Germany to cancel the Reis project. Israel acted after Erdo slammed Netanyahu and Israel over the Gaza campaign.

Let's face it without Germany we will eventually come to a state where we can't maintain Reis class subs. We are still dependent on Germany even though a lot of subsystems are Turkish-made.

Why S-80? Because Navantia is willing to work with us. At this point, S-80 is more or less a mature project. Milden needs a lot of time.

That would be a significant escalation from Germany. Not exporting new stuff is not the same as canceling a vital contract halfway.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems. This news is an answer to that. Israel is behind this. Israel is pushing Germany to cancel the Reis project. Israel acted after Erdo slammed Netanyahu and Israel over the Gaza campaign.

Let's face it without Germany we will eventually come to a state where we can't maintain Reis class subs. We are still dependent on Germany even though a lot of subsystems are Turkish-made.

Why S-80? Because Navantia is willing to work with us. At this point, S-80 is more or less a mature project. Milden needs a lot of time.

But Germany sign the deal about submarine if they dont continue than they can be sued and pay huge penalties ,they even pay millions about delay .
I dont think germans will abordon the deal for israel or they are so stupid?!

 

[Merzifonlu]

Germany is considering (nothing concrete yet) extending its arms embargo on land systems to cover the naval systems.

I think this situation was already expected by us. On the other hand, I think the Germans were just looking for an excuse. Both sides, Germany and Turkiye, have already agreed to end their "marriage" in military technology. The sooner it happens, the better for us. It should not be like the Altay incident, it is enough.

Let me say in advance that this incident will not be limited to trade involving military technology. We will all see that civilian trade between Germany and Turkiye will gradually decrease to marginal amounts over the coming decades. Because you won't take anything vital for you from someone you don't trust, especially if you can produce the same thing yourself.

Since military technology is the most vital thing, the chain breaks at its weakest link, that is, trade involving military technology disappears first.

 

[Oublious]

S-80 AIP system is a American one , do we have our own AIP?

 

[Afif]

S-80 AIP system is a American one , do we have our own AIP?

Actually, Spain has been developing an indeginous one for quite a while now to get rid of any export restrictions.

 

[Oublious]

Actually, Spain has been developing an indeginous one for quite a while now to get rid of any export restrictions.

thats a good news...

 

[Yasar_TR]

S-80 AIP system is an American one , do we have our own AIP?

The AIP system S80 uses is by provided by Hynergreen in Sevilla - Spain of Abengoa. Abengoa is a large Spanish company that operates in more than 80 countries; albeit having some financial difficulties in recent years. Fuel Cells are from UTC Power of USA.

Regarding Turkish AIP system: There is TOT happening at the moment. And here is a run down of what it entails:

There is a sort of JV in place between German HDW-MFI Joint Venture, HAVELSAN, ASELSAN, TUBITAK, STM AS, AYESAS, Milsoft, Meteksan Defense and KOÇ Information Defense companies whereby they will produce various systems and equipment of REIS submarines. In addition, many local companies will supply auxiliaries such as electrical cables, fittings, steel sheet and profile materials.

Following the completion of the REIS project, Gölcük Shipyard Command will have the ability to build technology including submarines with a propulsion system independent from the air, including the torpedo section, and as a result of the investments will gain the 'vertical construction' of submarine blocks. In addition, the knowledge and technological capability to be obtained within the scope of the project is expected to lead the beginning of a 'national' MILDEN submarine program.

But there is always the choice of going the “Japanese Route”.
Japanese with their last two Sōryū Class ships have done away with the AIP Systems and gone the conventional Diesel-to-Battery power route. But instead of the acid batteries they have chosen Li-Ion batteries. Li-Ion batteries they use can provide much higher current levels and sustain the power drain for a longer time period. Hence the submarines can stay submerged up to 7 to 10 days and can travel faster than AIP powered subs. Also they can speed up quicker. Japanese submarine captains prefer to leave battle area quickly after delivering their torpedo or missiles loads.

Even though the AIP system in REIS class is supposed to give you 2-3 weeks submergibility, the speed it can provide is low (4 to 8 knots) . Yet S80’s submergibility is given as 30-55 days. This needs to be investigated! The technology behind the development of the S80’s AIP, is state-of-the-art and is the first submarine that can generate the required hydrogen on demand, increasing hydrogen availability while enhancing safety.

S-80 Plus - Navantia

s80flight.navantia.es

 

[Anmdt]

the speed it can provide is low (4 to 8 knots)

The logic behind is plain, those speeds are silent. A submarine dives if she wants to travel at a higher speed, thus snorkel exists.

Could it be that Spain just wants to outsource the building process of the S80(light hull & pressure hull) for financial(cheaper in Türkiye) reasons?

This is valid for LHD (not for their own) but i am doubting for the pressure hull. ToT, training and equipment transfer for pressure hull production (or S80's diameter) is a lot more than LHD steel production. And to emphasize, pressure hull construction - alone takes a small fraction of time and budget.

There is a sort of JV in place between German HDW-MFI Joint Venture, HAVELSAN, ASELSAN, TUBITAK, STM AS, AYESAS, Milsoft, Meteksan Defense and KOÇ Information Defense companies whereby they will produce various systems and equipment of REIS submarines. In addition, many local companies will supply auxiliaries such as electrical cables, fittings, steel sheet and profile materials.

ToT regarding to PEM cells are minimal, in core-tech of the AIP system none exists. Even if there might be some claiming 'AIP system has this much local production' it is the brute and coarse part of AIP (mounts, structural integration, cables as you have also referred etc.).

 

[UkroTurk]

Mutiple sources talking about Turkiye building Spain S 80 submarine under licence , if this is true than it will merge with Turkish Milden since they almost same as size of about 80 meters

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723713891132387361

So what is the conclusion? Fake news or reliable source?

 

[Anmdt]

You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:

DATUM - Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı Geliştirme Projesi`nin Detayları Belli Oldu

Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı (ÇAMD) Geliştirme Projesi, Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı’nın (SSB) Sefine Denizcilik Tersanecilik Turizm San. Tic. A.Ş. ile yürüttüğü DİMDEG Projesi’nin Teknoloji Kazanım Yüküml

www.defenceturkey.com

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:

Within the scope of the project, a water-cooled electric motor, which will also be used in manned/unmanned submarines to be developed domestically in Turkey, has been developed indigenously by Femsan DC motor company and certified by Türk Loydu. Preliminary studies have been carried out for the integration of submarine sonars developed by Aselsan, lightweight torpedoes developed by Roketsan and hydrogen fuel cell developed by Aspilsan into the Multi-Purpose Mini Submarine.

There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.

 

[boredaf]

You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:

DATUM - Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı Geliştirme Projesi`nin Detayları Belli Oldu

Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı (ÇAMD) Geliştirme Projesi, Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı’nın (SSB) Sefine Denizcilik Tersanecilik Turizm San. Tic. A.Ş. ile yürüttüğü DİMDEG Projesi’nin Teknoloji Kazanım Yüküml

www.defenceturkey.com

View attachment 62909

View attachment 62910

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:



There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.

I really like what I'm seeing, though I'm curious about placement of torpedoes, it looks like it is right were crew is shown in the diagram. Can't wait to see the finished product.

Btw, you really think we're getting S80? Engine is great news and can be tied to S80, if we develop a bigger version I guess, but that would suggest there is a major problem somewhere either Reis project or something changed with MİLDEN, wouldn't it?

 

[UkroTurk]

You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:

DATUM - Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı Geliştirme Projesi`nin Detayları Belli Oldu

Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı (ÇAMD) Geliştirme Projesi, Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı’nın (SSB) Sefine Denizcilik Tersanecilik Turizm San. Tic. A.Ş. ile yürüttüğü DİMDEG Projesi’nin Teknoloji Kazanım Yüküml

www.defenceturkey.com

View attachment 62909

View attachment 62910

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:



There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.

Flames,Fire, Salute...

2 big news.

Midget submarine has Orka light weight torpedos(324mm 25km range), Zoka countermeasures, different types of sonars. Amazing.
I am hundred percent sure, other countries will be waiting in long que for purchase. Especially Ukraine, Qatar, OAE, KSA, Türkmenistan, Marocco, Tunus, Albania will be first customers.

@Anmdt need to pass this information to H.I. Sutton

I have no clue about Spanish sub, what would bring into TN i cant even imagine.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Well! If you check it out, the price of each S80 is near 1 billion Euros. That means 4billion Euros for four S80s. (It was estimated that in 2012 the cost of 4 subs to be around 2.2 billion Euros)
Our 6 Reis class ships’ total cost, at the time of contract, was to be 2.06 billion Euros. So there is a European product cost base saving, Navantia is thinking about. Yes! The S80 is bigger and may contain newer and more expensive technologies. But producing the subs in Turkey will prove to be a big cost saving exercise.
BAE Systems is also involved in manufacturing and supplying the pressure hull domes from its shipyard in Barrow UK adding to the cost.
As Turkish Reis Class AIP subs are being built entirely in Turkiye with most of it’s sub components being sourced locally; Probably apart from the Siemens BZM PEM unit (Proton Exchange Membrane) and the Austrian hull steel -soon to be of Turkish origin - , the submarines can be classed as of indigenous origin. This means we have means and an eco-system to build high tech submarines at a reasonable cost base to make them competitive in world markets. That is a big advantage for us and for a partner like Navantia!

The S80 Plus is as indigenous as it can get for the Spanish. Most of its critical systems are local. The electric motors and generators used in its propulsion system are made by Gamesa Electric of Spain. The diesel engines are MTU licensed production by Navantia in Cartagena Spain.

Type 214TN REIS Class TCG PİRİ REİS Submarine

The launch ceremony of the TCG Piri Reis (S-330) Submarine, the first of the Type 214TN REIS Class Submarines being constructed at the Gölcük Naval Shipyard Command under the €2,060 Bil

www.defenceturkey.com

S-80 Plus - Navantia

s80flight.navantia.es

The partnership with Navantia on S80, could be a short track to Milden!

 

[Quasar]

Well! If you check it out, the price of each S80 is near 1 billion Euros. That means 4billion Euros for four S80s. (It was estimated that in 2012 the cost of 4 subs to be around 2.2 billion Euros)
Our 6 Reis class ships’ total cost, at the time of contract, was to be 2.06 billion Euros. So there is a European product cost base saving, Navantia is thinking about. Yes! The S80 is bigger and may contain newer and more expensive technologies. But producing the subs in Turkey will prove to be a big cost saving exercise.
BAE Systems is also involved in manufacturing and supplying the pressure hull domes from its shipyard in Barrow UK adding to the cost.
As Turkish Reis Class AIP subs are being built entirely in Turkiye with most of it’s sub components being sourced locally; Probably apart from the Siemens BZM PEM unit (Proton Exchange Membrane) and the Austrian hull steel -soon to be of Turkish origin - , the submarines can be classed as of indigenous origin. This means we have means and an eco-system to build high tech submarines at a reasonable cost base to make them competitive in world markets. That is a big advantage for us and for a partner like Navantia!

The S80 Plus is as indigenous as it can get for the Spanish. Most of its critical systems are local. The electric motors and generators used in its propulsion system are made by Gamesa Electric of Spain. The diesel engines are MTU licensed production by Navantia in Cartagena Spain.

Type 214TN REIS Class TCG PİRİ REİS Submarine

The launch ceremony of the TCG Piri Reis (S-330) Submarine, the first of the Type 214TN REIS Class Submarines being constructed at the Gölcük Naval Shipyard Command under the €2,060 Bil

www.defenceturkey.com

View attachment 62912
View attachment 62913
View attachment 62914

S-80 Plus - Navantia

s80flight.navantia.es

The partnership with Navantia on S80, could be a short track to Milden!

guess they aslo have combat managment system by Lockheed Martin and some sonars from Atlas. after comparing our type 214 with South Korean subs and Spanish S 80 it shows how much we have achieved at nationalizing vital sub systems

 

[Afif]

guess they aslo have combat managment system by Lockheed Martin and some sonars from Atlas. after comparing our type 214 with South Korean subs and Spanish S 80 it shows how much we have achieved at nationalizing vital sub systems

Doesn't Turkish Type 214 boats also use ISUS 90-72 integrated sensors and CMS from Atlas? Or were they replaced by CMS Muren?

 

[Quasar]

Doesn't Turkish Type 214 boats also use ISUS 90-72 integrated sensors and CMS from Atlas? Or were they replaced by CMS Muren?

it is an eventuality There is only one guy who can give an aswer to this question @Anmdt but Reis class is still an ongoing programme
What I mean by eventuality is;
logic dictates that integrating AKYA, sub ATMACA and GEZGIN to a foreign Combat management system should be not very desirable for the Navy anymore

 

[UkroTurk]

( i asked my clever friend)

The AIP BEST system of Spanish S80 submarines, known as the AIP BEST system, offers several advantages over the AIP system of German 214 submarines. Here are the pros of the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines:

The AIP BEST system of Spanish S80 submarines uses bioethanol as a fuel source for air-independent propulsion. This technology provides some advantages over other AIP systems.
The use of bioethanol as a fuel source enhances the submarines' ability to avoid vulnerability when snorkeling, allowing for longer periods of submerged operation.
The AIP BEST system generates electrical power from a fuel cell, which is a novel and efficient method of propulsion.

On the other hand, the AIP system of German 214 submarines has its own set of advantages and disadvantages when compared to the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines. Here are the cons of the AIP system of German 214 submarines in comparison to Spanish S80 submarines:

The AIP system of German 214 submarines uses two different technologies: Fuel Cell and Stirling. While these technologies have their benefits, they may not offer the same level of efficiency and performance as the AIP BEST system of Spanish S80 submarines.
The use of two different technologies in the AIP system of German 214 submarines may introduce additional complexity and maintenance requirements.
It is important to note that the specific pros and cons of the AIP system of German 214 submarines compared to Spanish S80 submarines may vary depending on the specific operational requirements and capabilities of each submarine class.

Overall, both the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines and the AIP system of German 214 submarines have their own strengths and weaknesses, and the choice between them would depend on various factors such as operational requirements, technological preferences, and cost considerations.

The cons of the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines compared to the AIP system of German 214 submarines are:

The main problem with the S80 design was the issue of buoyancy, specifically related to the weight of the combat system and the addition of heavy, complex ethanol. This issue led to the cancellation of the AIP system for the first two submarines.
Another drawback of the S80 submarines is that they have only one diesel engine, which means they do not have a real backup system. While they can use the AIP system to propel the ship, it does not provide the same level of redundancy as having multiple diesel engines.

The pros of the AIP system of German 214 submarines compared to the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines are:

The AIP system of German 214 submarines uses two different technologies: Fuel Cell and Stirling. These technologies offer advantages such as longer submerged operation and increased efficiency compared to traditional diesel-electric systems.
The Fuel Cell technology used in the AIP system of German 214 submarines utilizes Siemens polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells, which provide a novel and efficient method of propulsion.
The Stirling technology, which is a closed-cycle heat engine, is also used in the AIP system of German 214 submarines. This technology generates power using a Stirling engine, further enhancing the submarines' performance.

It is important to note that the specific pros and cons of the AIP systems may vary depending on the operational requirements and capabilities of each submarine class. The choice between the AIP system of Spanish S80 submarines and the AIP system of German 214 submarines would depend on various factors such as operational requirements, technological preferences, and cost considerations.

 

[Lool]

You wanted some details, DefenceTurkey got you some:

DATUM - Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı Geliştirme Projesi`nin Detayları Belli Oldu

Çok Amaçlı Mini Denizaltı (ÇAMD) Geliştirme Projesi, Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı’nın (SSB) Sefine Denizcilik Tersanecilik Turizm San. Tic. A.Ş. ile yürüttüğü DİMDEG Projesi’nin Teknoloji Kazanım Yüküml

www.defenceturkey.com

View attachment 62909

View attachment 62910

Yeah bro, we are getting S80:



There goes our first electric motor that is suitable for UUVs / midget submarines. This shall be noted, it is quite primitive compared to Permasyn by SINAVY (Siemens Navy). But it is water-cooled, and sufficiently quite (for its size) and compared the platform it will be deployed with.

Does that mean that Turkey will soon have its own national engines to power their own submarines?

 

[cr33pt3d]

my damaged brain, is wondering if this little baby can be deployed by TCG Anadolu

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Femsan electric motors