260-280m aircraft carrier
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260-280m aircraft carrier
It was TN that increased the size of the platform, with additional requirements for space and equipment, which led to a decrease in the maximum speed. It's like "Oops, it got too big, let's make it smaller again".Mr Tatlıoğlu: "There were some adjustments on TTAB project. It was too big in terms of tonnage and its speed was low. We wanted to increase the speed because speed is very important for us."
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Wording is interesting. It's of course unofficial in its tone so maybe not smart to take a meaning from there but he says "a larger Anadolu" and "an aircraft carrier". Length itself doesn't mean much. America Class also come about at 260 meters. Kaga is about 250.Commander of Turkish Naval Forces Admiral Ercüment Tatlıoğlu:
"Work is continuing on the development of a 260-280m aircraft carrier, which is larger than the TCG Anadolu, for our Naval Forces."
Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanı Oramiral Tatlıoğlu: Bir sonraki hedef uçak gemisi -
Deniz Lisesi ve Deniz Harp Okulu (DHO) kuruluşunun 250’nci yıl töreninde Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanı Oramiral Ercüment Tatlıoğlu, MarineDealwww.marinedealnews.com
Issue of the new type FAC has been going on for years. Maybe a doctrine change is afoot and they can't make up their minds on what a future small combatant should look like?It was TN that increased the size of the platform, with additional requirements for space and equipment, which led to a decrease in the maximum speed. It's like "Oops, it got too big, let's make it smaller again".
That's how we got the MPAC-type design instead of the FAC-55, which was smaller and more agile.
It looks like they are looking for ways to scrap STM's design and go with Yonca or Onuk (via TAIS).
Also, at some point it was TN again who desired to revise the design and make it almost as big as Corvette.
Honestly I'd love if we did something with similar tonnage and weapons load to Karakurt Class corvette, so that they would be able to operate further in east med even without frigates and heavy corvette like ada class that's used like frigate by export customers. Don't know if smaller and faster is the right way to goIt was TN that increased the size of the platform, with additional requirements for space and equipment, which led to a decrease in the maximum speed. It's like "Oops, it got too big, let's make it smaller again".
That's how we got the MPAC-type design instead of the FAC-55, which was smaller and more agile.
It looks like they are looking for ways to scrap STM's design and go with Yonca or Onuk (via TAIS).
Also, at some point it was TN again who desired to revise the design and make it almost as big as Corvette.
He also adds that new Amphibious Assault Ships (maybe Landing Ships?) are in the queue. I'm not quite sure if this is a reference to the acquisition of older LSTs, or if it's a reference to additional ships.Commander of Turkish Naval Forces Admiral Ercüment Tatlıoğlu:
"Work is continuing on the development of a 260-280m aircraft carrier, which is larger than the TCG Anadolu, for our Naval Forces."
Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanı Oramiral Tatlıoğlu: Bir sonraki hedef uçak gemisi -
Deniz Lisesi ve Deniz Harp Okulu (DHO) kuruluşunun 250’nci yıl töreninde Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanı Oramiral Ercüment Tatlıoğlu, MarineDealwww.marinedealnews.com
It was TN that increased the size of the platform, with additional requirements for space and equipment, which led to a decrease in the maximum speed. It's like "Oops, it got too big, let's make it smaller again".
That's how we got the MPAC-type design instead of the FAC-55, which was smaller and more agile.
It looks like they are looking for ways to scrap STM's design and go with Yonca or Onuk (via TAIS).
Also, at some point it was TN again who desired to revise the design and make it almost as big as Corvette.
It is in the Bermuda Triangle; SSB - MSB - TN. The files go round in circles for years and years waiting for an answer to opinions and views.Wording is interesting. It's of course unofficial in its tone so maybe not smart to take a meaning from there but he says "a larger Anadolu" and "an aircraft carrier". Length itself doesn't mean much. America Class also come about at 260 meters. Kaga is about 250.
Wish we knew about specifics. Will it have a welldeck like Anadolu? It probably won't have CATOBAR. if we are thinking about fixed wing operations, it will probably have an angled deck? Not much to go with.
Issue of the new type FAC has been going on for years. Maybe a doctrine change is afoot and they can't make up their minds on what a future small combatant should look like?
TTAB is TTHB in English, MPAC is STM's design that can be modified to suit the customer's needs.Is the TTAB, and the TTHB the same project? Will we see any changes for the MPAC version that is intended for export as well?
This type of indecision and bureaucracy has made us lose too much time on too many projects.It is in the Bermuda Triangle; SSB - MSB - TN. The files go round in circles for years and years waiting for an answer to opinions and views.
I have seen the worst of it, and this is even worse than that.
Which one of these would be best for us in your opinion?It was TN that increased the size of the platform, with additional requirements for space and equipment, which led to a decrease in the maximum speed. It's like "Oops, it got too big, let's make it smaller again".
That's how we got the MPAC-type design instead of the FAC-55, which was smaller and more agile.
It looks like they are looking for ways to scrap STM's design and go with Yonca or Onuk (via TAIS).
Also, at some point it was TN again who desired to revise the design and make it almost as big as Corvette.
I mean, there's not much you can do about this. TN has its own ideas in its own future. MSB has the job of managing the budget they are allocated fully and to the best of its capabilities for all branches. SSB has the mission of maximizing defence sector participation and needs so that it can survive and cherish. This is the best case scenario where there's no petty infighting. And over the years we've seen that there's plenty of infighting to go around. What's a better way?This type of indecision and bureaucracy has made us lose too much time on too many projects.
The Navy has long-term plans, but when it comes to fulfilling the plans, they don't know how to freeze the requirements or what they need explicitly to realise the plan. This is also the case with DIMDEG.I mean, there's not much you can do about this. TN has its own ideas in its own future. MSB has the job of managing the budget they are allocated fully and to the best of its capabilities for all branches. SSB has the mission of maximizing defence sector participation and needs so that it can survive and cherish. This is the best case scenario where there's no petty infighting. And over the years we've seen that there's plenty of infighting to go around. What's a better way?
Navy usually moved without rocking the boat re its future plans for the last 2 decades because they had plans. Those plans came out of working groups and inner bureaucracy like this. I wouldn't want to be sitting on those tables, that's for sure.
At this point my opinion is: just do whatever they want or however they want to incorporate it into operational concepts or within the doctrine.Which one of these would be best for us in your opinion?
Speed and agility in compact size VS big size?
Then TN could use two different type of ships? One is light, compact manned rapid FAC. The second is larger and more complex. ???The Navy has long-term plans, but when it comes to fulfilling the plans, they don't know how to freeze the requirements or what they need explicitly to realise the plan. This is also the case with DIMDEG.
At this point my opinion is: just do whatever they want or however they want to incorporate it into operational concepts or within the doctrine.
My personal opinion: It is hard to find an optimised point, you either drop to 30 knots by assuming large spaces and stern ramp for USVs, or you drop below a size with sufficient EW, sensor and weapon suite (which TN requires to be present) with the higher speed. To satisfy both, we need to rethink the unorthodox design philosophies that TN is not open to. And higher speed can be achieved by means other than the vessel alone (drones, USVs, dedicated fast boats, etc.).
I think that’s exactly what @Anmdt was trying to tell.Then TN could use two different type of ships? One is light, compact manned rapid FAC. The second is larger and more complex. ???
Actually what do they need? Fast Attack Craft?? İ can't understand their requirements.
The sudden shift of requirements, a change on doctrine, a change of heart. Whatever it is, it happens while the project is moving toward the earlier determined product. This, in return, creates the grueling task of redesign for the shipyards and hence the confusion and inevitable delaysThe Navy has long-term plans, but when it comes to fulfilling the plans, they don't know how to freeze the requirements or what they need explicitly to realise the plan. This is also the case with DIMDEG.
I think that’s exactly what @Anmdt was trying to tell.
The sudden shift of requirements, a change on doctrine, a change of heart. Whatever it is, it happens while the project is moving toward the earlier determined product. This, in return, creates the grueling task of redesign for the shipyards and hence the confusion and inevitable delays
I knew they'd say that one day. lol We're back to +++50 knots again. Or maybe the navy never backed down on that. lol. TTHB was a concept that everyone biased or unbiased and even a lot of really respected navy enthusiasts really saw as the optimum point. But for our navy, it is too slow.
For the third and fourth planned LST ships, I am of the opinion that the existing Bayraktar class LSTs should be largely modified to have hangars for more than one heavy duty helicopter. In fact, I think these next ships could be a multi-role logistics and multi-function support ship, closer to the LPD approach, rather than an LST.He also adds that new Amphibious Assault Ships (maybe Landing Ships?) are in the queue. I'm not quite sure if this is a reference to the acquisition of older LSTs, or if it's a reference to additional ships.
Besides, there are other crucial vessels that TN falls in the need of;
- Next Generation Mine hunter vessel
- Research Vessel (Hydrographic Survey)
- Ocean-going tug
- Additional RAT Vessel (Multi-purpose OSV)
To be honest, they started from 60+ (which was only reached with 1x25000+ 4x5000 SHP GTs), so I would say 50 is a fair point to settle . I think a ship based on MPAC could also reach 50+ with an adjustment to the propulsion unit (opting for one large GT for booster waterjet instead of 2 small GTs), if the available space in the main engine room allows it. I have concerns that this would lengthen the hull by 5 metres, increase displacement, use up more fuel for cruising, improve the range, compromise manoeuvrability and so on. (Note: all based on assumptions. It is an educated guess).I knew they'd say that one day. lol We're back to +++50 knots again. Or maybe the navy never backed down on that. lol. TTHB was a concept that everyone biased or unbiased and even a lot of really respected navy enthusiasts really saw as the optimum point. But for our navy, it is too slow.
We should adopt a similar approach for LCTs. It would be wise to have a deck cover (hence the drone attacks) and a small landing pad for the use of G-IHA.For the third and fourth planned LST ships, I am of the opinion that the existing Bayraktar class LSTs should be slightly modified to have hangars for more than one heavy duty helicopter. In fact, I think this ship could be a multi-role logistics and multi-function support ship, closer to the LPD approach, rather than an LST.
For emergency situations, its Ok you can push the engines and the ship, but I find it still incredibly high that ships of these dimensions are maneuvering with a standard full speed of 60 knots, as standard speed of deployment. Üstad, you know better than all of us what this means, don't misunderstand me, this is addressed to the general, I would love my friends who see these speeds as normal to get on a speedboat that reaches these speeds on the sea. Then I would like them to imagine what they feel in a ship about 50 times bigger and in 2-3 sea states... And then to take into account that the hundreds of systems inside that ship must serve like clockwork for 30 years... It's like this, one day the air force command saying that standard fighter jets have a top speed in the range of 1.8-2 mach, we want jets that can reach 3 mach.To be honest, they started out at 60, so I would say that 50 is a fair point at which to settle down .
We should adopt a similar approach for LCTs. It would be wise to have a deck cover (hence the drone attacks) and a small landing pad for the use of G-IHA.