TR Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Also that s up to how much % of parts we need to import or pay the licence fee

Yeah i don't really know about this and also VAT, been working in a field in the village for last 10 years.

 

[Anmdt]

Açık deniz karakol gemileri ile Türkiye'de ilklere imza atıldı

Türkiye'nin denizlerdeki hak ve menfaatlerini etkin şekilde korumak amacıyla yürütülen Açık Deniz Karakol Gemisi Projesi, Türk savunma sanayisi açısından ilkleri barındırıyor. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

We have missed some major progresses about shipbuilding once again. OPV project lies to be important for future projects.

• Mega blocks were used, this has reduced time spent on the slipway (erection, block merging). Such operations take twice as long compared to in-hangar merging operations. However, working with mega blocks is also hard as the size grows, so does the error but not the tolerances.
• Equipped blocks were used, the mega blocks, blocks or sub-blocks are made with equipment, the degree of equipping is not clear but use of pipes, cabling routes, auxiliaries and engines would save a remarkable redo time in the dry dock.
• As a result of utilizing equipped blocks, ships are ready to be powered on, instantly, and ready to start harbor acceptance test for some components.

As a result of all these, two ships built nearly simultaneously and one hull's construction time (steel cutting to delivery) may go as short as 18 months, or even shorter. If i have tracked right the second hull has progressed remarkably fast. Remaining 8 hulls can be introduced to the service in 3-4 years (via 2 shipyards, simultaneous construction if ASFAT / Istanbul Naval Shipyard delivers the equipped/mega-block know-how).

ASFAT has prepared 4 alternative designs for variants of the OPV, 2 of which we have seen, that may also perform AAW duties. This indicates, TN is considering an alternative OPV design on top of 10 planned OPV (sisterships of first two hulls) or remaining 8 ships may be built in different configurations altogether (not mentioning of FFBNW but readily available with heavy weapons).

 

[boredaf]

TN is considering an alternative OPV design on top of 10 planned OPV

I hope this is their plan, we could really use some more warships designed anti-air.

 

[Afif]

ASFAT has prepared 4 alternative designs for variants of the OPV, 2 of which we have seen, that may also perform AAW duties. This indicates, TN is considering an alternative OPV design on top of 10 planned OPV (sisterships of first two hulls) or remaining 8 ships may be built in different configurations altogether (not mentioning of FFBNW but readily available with heavy weapons).

Let’s say, the second concept is meant for AAW. There is no question about its weapon load. However, with such entry level radar how can it perform effective AAW?
Isn’t this big asymmetry between weapon package and sensor package going to adversely affect the ship's technical capabilities?

is it possible ASFAT will introduce I class must on any of these OPV designs that can house Chenk?

 

[Altay_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1706271076379185248

From front to back:
PNS Babur
TCG İstanbul
TCG Heybeliada
PNS Kaibar

 

[Afif]

Looks like PNS Babur can host 16x AShM in the middle deck like I class.

 

[Sanchez]

Babur and Ada difference is much clearer here. Babur and Kaibar are nearly 10m longer. While Istanbul and Babur are more similar with Istanbul being a tad longer.

Wish we could see a nice top down but non commercial satellite images are not updated yet.

 

[Anmdt]

View attachment 61410


View attachment 61409

Let’s say, the second concept is meant for AAW. There is no question about its weapon load. However, with such entry level radar how can it perform effective AAW?
Isn’t this big asymmetry between weapon package and sensor package going to adversely affect the ship's technical capabilities?

is it possible ASFAT will introduce I class must on any of these OPV designs that can house Chenk?

I believe these are just a "leaked" image, submitted for a customer during evaluation, and has little to do with actual plans submitted to the officials.

 

[Afif]

I believe these are just a "leaked" image, submitted for a customer during evaluation, and has little to do with actual plans submitted to the officials.

Okay, thank.
But I was asking from a technical point of view, can these OPV structurallly hold more stronger and bigger mast if required?

 

[Anmdt]

Okay, thank.
But I was asking from a technical point of view, can these OPV structurallly hold more stronger and bigger mast if required?

The mast is sufficient for a bigger radar, in my opinion. However i doubt if cooling capacity would be sufficient for more EA systems on the mast. It may support Cenk-S / Scaled Cenk-S / Arda-X. I think Arda-X would be a system with capability to be scaled up as a nice X band MFR.

Installed FCR is also lower tier systems that provides no illumination in X band but tracking in Ka/Ku. I believe these can be replaced with higher tier (AKR-D Block B2 - Akrep FCR).

 

[Melkor]

What’s the latest re tf2000? Anything to get excited about yet?

 

[Fairon]

Babur and Ada difference is much clearer here. Babur and Kaibar are nearly 10m longer. While Istanbul and Babur are more similar with Istanbul being a tad longer.

Wish we could see a nice top down but non commercial satellite images are not updated yet.

It seems like Kaibar and Heybeliada similar in length but Babur is longer than them. That means if it isn't beacuse of perspective, there is a size difference between Kaibar and Babur. I wonder why that is.

 

[TheInsider]

Milli Savunma Bakanlığı (MSB) veya Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca (SSB) yürütülen savunma sanayii projelerine ilişkin olarak yapılan teslim ve hizmetler 25 Aralık 2021 tarihinden itibaren katma değer vergisinden (KDV) muaf tutulacak.

Savunma projelerine KDV muafiyeti

Savunma projelerine KDV muafiyeti - Milli Savunma Bakanlığı ve Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca yürütülen savunma sanayi proje teslim ve hizmetleri KDV'den muaf tutulacak.

www.sozcu.com.tr

Deliveries and services made in relation to defense industry projects carried out by the Ministry of National Defence (MSB) or the Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) will be exempt from value-added tax (VAT) as of 25 December 2021.

Aselsan is delivering all of its products in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Ereğli is delivering ship steel in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Every national item delivered in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project is exempted from VAT(%20).

 

[Sanchez]

It seems like Kaibar and Heybeliada similar in length but Babur is longer than them. That means if it isn't beacuse of perspective, there is a size difference between Kaibar and Babur. I wonder why that is.

I think it's mostly the perspective.

 

[Saithan]

Savunma projelerine KDV muafiyeti

Savunma projelerine KDV muafiyeti - Milli Savunma Bakanlığı ve Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca yürütülen savunma sanayi proje teslim ve hizmetleri KDV'den muaf tutulacak.

www.sozcu.com.tr

Deliveries and services made in relation to defense industry projects carried out by the Ministry of National Defence (MSB) or the Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) will be exempt from value-added tax (VAT) as of 25 December 2021.

Aselsan is delivering all of its products in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Ereğli is delivering ship steel in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Every national item delivered in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project is exempted from VAT(%20).

I may be wrong but wouldn’t it be better to pay VAT as the public company and state would be reimbursed while private companies would have a chance to reconciliate and deduct VAT from sales and purchases. VAT is the consumers burden.

 

[Brave Janissary]

As it is known, Hisar class Tcg Koçhisar and Tcg Akhisar were launched. However, the configuration of the remaining 8 ships is not clear. The probabilities and the ship's force multiplier are explained very well in the video.

 

[uçuyorum]

I've just read Mavi Vatan’ın Güney Cephesi: Doğu Akdeniz by Cem Gürdeniz and the fact that Navy having such importance only getting 11-18% of already small annual defence budget is crazy. I think we have a room for at least 30% growth in personnel and budget for them.

We have a lot of projects that we really need to accelerate. TF2000 are needed for survivability of our entire fleet and also for protecting our airspace from even further. But even then the anti ship capabilities are growing further and while Reis class are considered very good, I think we must go faster with Milden and Stm500, and focus more on cruise missile launching capability of our submarines. The navy already knows and is working on these, we just need to push it more and fund it more. A more survivable fleet is critical. We have limited budget for sure but I think these deserve the priority. Especially over a lot of other government expenditures.

 

[Yasar]

I've just read Mavi Vatan’ın Güney Cephesi: Doğu Akdeniz by Cem Gürdeniz and the fact that Navy having such importance only getting 11-18% of already small annual defence budget is crazy. I think we have a room for at least 30% growth in personnel and budget for them.

We have a lot of projects that we really need to accelerate. TF2000 are needed for survivability of our entire fleet and also for protecting our airspace from even further. But even then the anti ship capabilities are growing further and while Reis class are considered very good, I think we must go faster with Milden and Stm500, and focus more on cruise missile launching capability of our submarines. The navy already knows and is working on these, we just need to push it more and fund it more. A more survivable fleet is critical. We have limited budget for sure but I think these deserve the priority. Especially over a lot of other government expenditures.

As I had previously mentioned, I was against the building of such a large and bulky white elephant like the TCG Anadolu. It was too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain and use. Two or three more Bayraktar Class LST ships would have been the cleverer choice; And they would have been able to meet most of the duties we were expecting from the LHD today at a fraction of the cost. TCG Anadolu is an amphibious assault vessel and number one target for all enemies of Turkey. We don’t have enough means to protect her and don’t have enough fire power to project her assaulting prowess either. It can and should have around a dozen Seahawks, a good number of navalised T-929 and T-926 helicopters.
Now we are making the same mistake with TF2000. A very expensive destroyer that will become a target. Albeit better protected than TCG Anadolu, it is nevertheless a big bulky ship that is too expensive to build and run. For a country like Turkey where finances are dire and the effect of loss of an asset like a destroyer or an LHD is just too painful to bear, the logical choice should have been more I-Class and may be a decent number of 4500 ton class frigates to complement the current ships we have in our inventory.
Addition of more submarines is also needed. As you rightfully pointed out, Milden program needs to be hastened. STM-500 mini sub program also is important.
Since TCG Anadolu is here we will have to live with this big boy and look after it.
Our Navy doesn’t really need a 8500 ton destroyer; but it needs 4 to 8 more, small to medium size (~3500 to 4500 ton) air defence frigates, 6 new Milden subs, 10 new fast attack crafts, a plethora of various unmanned sea crafts to be able to conduct missions of ASW, ASuW, intelligence, EW, land attack etc. In addition we need probably at least a dozen of navalised 10 ton helicopters that are of the same ilk as Seahawks.
To provide funds for all this is not easy. Since Navy is not the only part of our armed forces that need investing in, we need to compartmentalise the expense structure accordingly. We have a stealth plane to build. An engine that needs to be developed to fly that plane. New UAVs to come yet. The Land Forces need new tanks, artillery and armoured fighting vehicles.
There is also the matter about the smart munitions and bombs and missiles that need to be funded.
There are literally hundreds of defence projects being worked on and only a handful are in the inventory. We are still waiting for SOM-C variants, SOM-J, Atmaca Land , CAKIR , Gokdogan, Bozdogan, etc etc. these are just a few we know that have been tested successfully but not found their way in to our inventory yet.
So yes we need a lot of stuff. But must be careful about spending the funds we allocate for our defence and spend it more cleverly.

 

[UkroTurk]

Add on list +10 midget subs (100tonnes) with medium torpedos.

Qatar's M23 secret sub are being constructed in Italy.

 

[uçuyorum]

As I had previously mentioned, I was against the building of such a large and bulky white elephant like the TCG Anadolu. It was too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain and use. Two or three more Bayraktar Class LST ships would have been the cleverer choice; And they would have been able to meet most of the duties we were expecting from the LHD today at a fraction of the cost. TCG Anadolu is an amphibious assault vessel and number one target for all enemies of Turkey. We don’t have enough means to protect her and don’t have enough fire power to project her assaulting prowess either. It can and should have around a dozen Seahawks, a good number of navalised T-929 and T-926 helicopters.
Now we are making the same mistake with TF2000. A very expensive destroyer that will become a target. Albeit better protected than TCG Anadolu, it is nevertheless a big bulky ship that is too expensive to build and run. For a country like Turkey where finances are dire and the effect of loss of an asset like a destroyer or an LHD is just too painful to bear, the logical choice should have been more I-Class and may be a decent number of 4500 ton class frigates to complement the current ships we have in our inventory.
Addition of more submarines is also needed. As you rightfully pointed out, Milden program needs to be hastened. STM-500 mini sub program also is important.
Since TCG Anadolu is here we will have to live with this big boy and look after it.
Our Navy doesn’t really need a 8500 ton destroyer; but it needs 4 to 8 more, small to medium size (~3500 to 4500 ton) air defence frigates, 6 new Milden subs, 10 new fast attack crafts, a plethora of various unmanned sea crafts to be able to conduct missions of ASW, ASuW, intelligence, EW, land attack etc. In addition we need probably at least a dozen of navalised 10 ton helicopters that are of the same ilk as Seahawks.
To provide funds for all this is not easy. Since Navy is not the only part of our armed forces that need investing in, we need to compartmentalise the expense structure accordingly. We have a stealth plane to build. An engine that needs to be developed to fly that plane. New UAVs to come yet. The Land Forces need new tanks, artillery and armoured fighting vehicles.
There is also the matter about the smart munitions and bombs and missiles that need to be funded.
There are literally hundreds of defence projects being worked on and only a handful are in the inventory. We are still waiting for SOM-C variants, SOM-J, Atmaca Land , CAKIR , Gokdogan, Bozdogan, etc etc. these are just a few we know that have been tested successfully but not found their way in to our inventory yet.
So yes we need a lot of stuff. But must be careful about spending the funds we allocate for our defence and spend it more cleverly.

TF2000 are not just for defending the Anadolu though, they will provide area defence for entire rest of fleet, including Istif with limited number of VLS and sensors. There is also the matter of ballistic missile defence in the future. We are already making Siper, we need a ship that can make use of it. That's in addition to command and control abilities of that ship for other theater operations. Those were needed more than Anadolu honestly. But most navy agrees on importance of having Anadolu as well.