TR Naval Programs

[Strong AI]

Which one?

Can we choose?
I will take the sub launched then.

 

[Anmdt]

Can we choose?
I will take the sub launched then.

For that one we will need to wait a little longer i suppose. Sub-atmaca will come first*. Heard sage is working on something but not sure if it is an auv or something else.

Give or take 2026 for the first trial, the project is still going on.

 

[dBSPL]

A photo of TCG PiriReis before the ceremony, with TCG Anadolu in the background:

photo: savunmasanayist

 

[Anmdt]

Mystery resolved;

Aksaz shipyard will be upgraded to facilitate overhauling and maintenance capability of TCG Anadolu and Aircraft Carrier, and possibly other larger amphibious assets. For this reason a dry dock will be established.

Following this a new shipyard will be launched in Mersin, a total of 5 shipyards with three focusing on new buildings (will be three after Alaybey has been upgraded, if budget is granted).

Turkish Navy taking smart steps again.

 

[Sanchez]

Mystery resolved;

Aksaz shipyard will be upgraded to facilitate overhauling and maintenance capability of TCG Anadolu and Aircraft Carrier, and possibly other larger amphibious assets. For this reason a dry dock will be established.

Following this a new shipyard will be launched in Mersin, a total of 5 shipyards with three focusing on new buildings (will be three after Alaybey has been upgraded, if budget is granted).

Turkish Navy taking smart steps again.

More shipyards is great and all, but is Aksaz the best place for such an installation for our most strategic vessels, being that close to Crete.

 

[Huelague]

Which one?

From Piri Reis. Or do you mean which missile?

 

[Anmdt]

More shipyards is great and all, but is Aksaz the best place for such an installation for our most strategic vessels, being that close to Crete.

Also defines that Anadolu and other strategic assets have nothing much to do within Aegean, Marmara & Black Sea region, thus they do not need to be in Istanbul. They are destined for overseas.

I am 100% sure some people will be complaining of private shipyards not being utilized for maintenance of large platforms, so in advance i am telling that private shipyard's motive is purely commercial, thus they may shut down, dismantle, sell, demolish large dry docks if they stop turning money in. This is logical move to ensure maintainability of strategic assets.

I like how TN plans these details ahead. This would apply to any country around the world; if you are only hearing numbers and seeing images but seeing little mention or improvement or motives toward securing the maintainability of aforementioned numbers, you are likely to be told some lies and live in a dream.

 

[Anmdt]

From Piri Reis. Or do you mean which missile?

Yes, which Gezgin SLCM? The one that will launch from Reis and Gür, or the one that will launch from Milden?

 

[Sanchez]

I am 100% sure some people will be complaining of private shipyards not being utilized for maintenance of large platforms, so in advance i am telling that private shipyard's motive is purely commercial, thus they may shut down, dismantle, sell, demolish large dry docks if they stop turning money in. This is logical move to ensure maintainability of strategic assets.

Let them, we've seen how this played out in US, a disaster. Navy must have the capabilities to maintain its own high value vessels. Smaller ships like coast guard corvettes, OPVs etc can be argued upon, but anything bigger than a frigate should be left to the navy.

Yes, which Gezgin SLCM? The one that will launch from Reis and Gür, or the one that will launch from Milden?

To move the point, Reis Class like any other submarine we currently operate only have 533mm torpedo tubes. 533mm is a tad small for long range cruise missiles. AFAIK, there are no cruise missiles launched from 533mm tubes in any NATO country. Israel handled this with 4 additional purpose built 650mm tubes next to the 6 533mm tubes and is theorized to use them for the nuclear capable Popeye Turbo missiles. But it is also claimed that even Israel is moving to VLS equipped boats with the last Dolphin 2 Class Drakon, which have a much larger sail.

A Gezgin that is fit to made into 533mm tubes would have to be smaller in diameter and there already are length limits. It basically would have to be a lesser performance munition. I would go as far to claim that a Gezgin designed to fit into a 533mm tube would be drastically different in size and performance next to a VLS one, you can basically call them two different missiles. You can even the first one "Gezgin 0.50"

 

[valarmogu]

Türkiye's newest Reis-class air-independent-propulsion submarine S330 Pirireis has officially been commissioned to the Turkish Navy.

Thanks to its hydrogen fuel-cell technology, Pirireis can stay submerged for up to 3 weeks and carries a large array of cutting-edge sensors and indigenous weapon systems including Akya & Orka torpedoes, Atmaca antiship missiles as well as Gezgin cruise missiles.

TÜRK Donanması : TCG PİRİREİS Denizaltısı Envantere Alındı! - ULU Savunma

Türk Donanması, Havadan Bağımsız Tahrik Sistemine sahip olan Pirireis Denizaltısını hizmete aldığını açıkladı...

www.ulusavunma.com

 

[Strong AI]

To move the point, Reis Class like any other submarine we currently operate only have 533mm torpedo tubes. 533mm is a tad small for long range cruise missiles. AFAIK, there are no cruise missiles launched from 533mm tubes in any NATO country. Israel handled this with 4 additional purpose built 650mm tubes next to the 6 533mm tubes and is theorized to use them for the nuclear capable Popeye Turbo missiles. But it is also claimed that even Israel is moving to VLS equipped boats with the last Dolphin 2 Class Drakon, which have a much larger sail.

A Gezgin that is fit to made into 533mm tubes would have to be smaller in diameter and there already are length limits. It basically would have to be a lesser performance munition. I would go as far to claim that a Gezgin designed to fit into a 533mm tube would be drastically different in size and performance next to a VLS one, you can basically call them two different missiles. You can even the first one "Gezgin 0.50"

AFAIK Tomahawk missile can be launched from 53 cm tubes. Is that not enough range?

 

[Strong AI]

 

[OPTIMUS]

Refilling/refueling AIP is a difficult process comparable to refueling a space rocket. It needs specialized facilities and well-trained crews. Any mistakes and things can go wrong really quickly.

The Turkish AIP submarines are being refueled in Italy (for now). This costs the Turkish Navy about 200,000€.

the Greek AIP submarines are refueled in Germany (forever because, due to construction).This costs the Greek navy 350.000€

 

[TheInsider]

SSB plans to put another 3 I class frigates on the keel after launching the first 3 I class frigates. This will reduce the time to deliver all 8 ordered ships.

 

[Sanchez]

AFAIK Tomahawk missile can be launched from 53 cm tubes. Is that not enough range?

Huh, seems i was wrong.

 

[Anmdt]

Let them, we've seen how this played out in US, a disaster. Navy must have the capabilities to maintain its own high value vessels. Smaller ships like coast guard corvettes, OPVs etc can be argued upon, but anything bigger than a frigate should be left to the navy.


To move the point, Reis Class like any other submarine we currently operate only have 533mm torpedo tubes. 533mm is a tad small for long range cruise missiles. AFAIK, there are no cruise missiles launched from 533mm tubes in any NATO country. Israel handled this with 4 additional purpose built 650mm tubes next to the 6 533mm tubes and is theorized to use them for the nuclear capable Popeye Turbo missiles. But it is also claimed that even Israel is moving to VLS equipped boats with the last Dolphin 2 Class Drakon, which have a much larger sail.

A Gezgin that is fit to made into 533mm tubes would have to be smaller in diameter and there already are length limits. It basically would have to be a lesser performance munition. I would go as far to claim that a Gezgin designed to fit into a 533mm tube would be drastically different in size and performance next to a VLS one, you can basically call them two different missiles. You can even the first one "Gezgin 0.50"

MdCN fits to the 533mm torpedo tube as far as i know, and Tomahawk also fits within a 533mm tube, but not the torpedo tube itself. A vertically packed tube that can be replenished at shore, not through hatches within the submarine.

There are two matters from the perspective i see it;

- Since we are fitting a long range cruise missile, entire of 533mm needs to be utilized and this gets a capsule discarded. Without a capsule now our missile has to endure all hydrodynamics and launching loads, and transition from water to air with ease and deploy the fins/canards and do this all safely with a well controlled CoG and forces.

- Length of missile, lack of shrouds for installing, on board equipment may indicate that a Gezgin may not be loaded into a torpedo tube from within the submarine and has to be reloaded at shore, therefore if the submarine is destined for such a role at least few tubes will be occupied by Gezgin, pre-loaded. Either torpedo tube gets taller to accomodate the missile or the missile / booster gets shorter. Recently we have heard that Gür class submarine's torpedo tube has lengtheneded to accomodate Akya torpedo, but i believe this wasn't the sole reason.

- A forgotten point: Also design of the missile, shroud may affect the swim out methodology, whether it will swim out by its own propulsion or pushed by pneumatic systems or a mechanical system. Setting a safe distance to turn on the rocket booster to emerge from water etc. Without a capsule these all becomes a challenge.

Atmaca is fitted into a torpedo tube through a capsule. Imo this is a necessity in 21st century to provide a decent swim-out distance and flexibility in engagement. This is not necessary when your missile can reach 1000 km+ distances.

So a torpedo tube and vertical tube launched versions may share similarities but at least the booster design length and/or missile length may need to be varied. Or its canards and nose will be different from the air / surface launched versions to operate both in submerged swim speed and in flight speed.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Are the Germans the only one capabaly of delivering AIP refulling station solutions ?

NO!!

After TKMN paid a punishment of 100 million Euros to Turkey, the Germans insisted that the Turkish submarines must be refueled in Germany. But they didn't get through.

The Turkish submarines can get maintenance in Turkey but Greek submarines have to go to Germany.

AIP is a very valuable commodity in the submarine. You have to use this technology very sparingly. That's why AIP is primarily intended for creeping speed. Charging takes a very, very long time. Each additional knot reduces the underwater duration of the oversized. It also depends on the discipline of the crew. The Japanese have done 30 days underwater with their first SORYU's. For the Germans 16 days, for Italians 13 days, for the Greeks 11 days. The Japanese may have broken the record with their new SORYU's. Quite possibly. I am curious how long you Turkish submariners could stay under water.

 

[Anmdt]

Huh, seems i was wrong.

It is a vertical tube, we don't count it as a torpedo tube but MdCN does launch from a torpedo tube.

 

[Afif]

@Anmdt i think British Astute can Launch tomahawk through its 533mm torpedo tubes.

 

[Sanchez]

It is a vertical tube, we don't count it as a torpedo tube but MdCN does launch from a torpedo tube.

Seawolves don't have the VLS but I believe could launch TLAMs from the torpedo tubes.