TR Naval Programs

[Hexciter]

Turkey to make its own maritime missile-launching system after sanctions interrupt Lockheed plans

By: Tayfun Ozberk

MERSIN, Turkey — Turkish defense company Roketsan is to develop a vertical launching system for the country’s first locally made frigate, after American sanctions disrupted original procurement plans, said naval platforms acquisition official Alper Kose.
The future MDAS, which stands for Milli Dikey Atis Sistemi (or in English, National Vertical Launch System), is to equip the TCG Istanbul, the lead ship of Turkey’s I-class frigates. Turkey’s top defense procurement official, Ismail Demir, had announced Jan. 23 at the warship’s launch ceremony that the vessel would be fitted with an indigenous VLS. Until now it was unclear who would manufacture the national missile launching system and what would be its specifications.
The government initially planned to install the Mk 41 VLS, made by American firm Lockheed Martin. However, sanctions imposed on Turkey through the U.S. Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act prevented the sale of the MK 41 VLS. The U.S brought about the sanctions after Turkey bought the Russian S-400 air defense system.
Kose, who leads the naval platforms unit at the defense procurement agency Presidency of Defence Industries, or SSB, said the government hired missile-manufacturer Roketsan to develop MDAS.
“The FMS was not approved for using the U.S.-made Mk 41 as a vertical launch system for the Milgem [naval project’s] fifth ship. Thus, we inked an agreement with Roketsan and rearranged the contract so that Roketsan will develop the VLS,” Kose told Turkish media.
A source with a subcontractor working on the project told Defense News that the MDAS will be similar to the Mk 41. “However, it has some structural differences, like its height. MDAS will be 8 meters long — 30 centimeters longer than Mk 41,” the source said on condition of anonymity.
“The system will be capable of embarking and launching indigenous missiles, including HİSAR surface-to-air missile family ... and ATMACA anti-ship missiles,” the source added. “Turkey has gained enough know-how experience to develop an indigenous missile-launching system in the last decade. We have been working on the MDAS project and aim to make it ready before the acceptance trials of TCG Istanbul.”
MDAS was initially planned to equip the future TF2000-class air warfare destroyer, scheduled to enter service with the Turkish Navy by 2027. However, the plans changed as a result of the sanctions, and the SSB accelerated the project. According to the SSB’s agenda, the first I-class frigate is expected to be commissioned in 2023.
MDAS variants are expected to launch two Turkish weapons currently undergoing tests: the long-range air defense missile Siper, or Hisar-U; and the cruise missile Gezgin meant for tactical land-attack missions.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ource=twitter.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+DFN

 

[Philips]

and ATMACA anti-ship missiles

This is a novelty in the entire world afaik

 

[Spook]

Turkey to make its own maritime missile-launching system after sanctions interrupt Lockheed plans

By: Tayfun Ozberk

MERSIN, Turkey — Turkish defense company Roketsan is to develop a vertical launching system for the country’s first locally made frigate, after American sanctions disrupted original procurement plans, said naval platforms acquisition official Alper Kose.
The future MDAS, which stands for Milli Dikey Atis Sistemi (or in English, National Vertical Launch System), is to equip the TCG Istanbul, the lead ship of Turkey’s I-class frigates. Turkey’s top defense procurement official, Ismail Demir, had announced Jan. 23 at the warship’s launch ceremony that the vessel would be fitted with an indigenous VLS. Until now it was unclear who would manufacture the national missile launching system and what would be its specifications.
The government initially planned to install the Mk 41 VLS, made by American firm Lockheed Martin. However, sanctions imposed on Turkey through the U.S. Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act prevented the sale of the MK 41 VLS. The U.S brought about the sanctions after Turkey bought the Russian S-400 air defense system.
Kose, who leads the naval platforms unit at the defense procurement agency Presidency of Defence Industries, or SSB, said the government hired missile-manufacturer Roketsan to develop MDAS.
“The FMS was not approved for using the U.S.-made Mk 41 as a vertical launch system for the Milgem [naval project’s] fifth ship. Thus, we inked an agreement with Roketsan and rearranged the contract so that Roketsan will develop the VLS,” Kose told Turkish media.
A source with a subcontractor working on the project told Defense News that the MDAS will be similar to the Mk 41. “However, it has some structural differences, like its height. MDAS will be 8 meters long — 30 centimeters longer than Mk 41,” the source said on condition of anonymity.
“The system will be capable of embarking and launching indigenous missiles, including HİSAR surface-to-air missile family ... and ATMACA anti-ship missiles,” the source added. “Turkey has gained enough know-how experience to develop an indigenous missile-launching system in the last decade. We have been working on the MDAS project and aim to make it ready before the acceptance trials of TCG Istanbul.”
MDAS was initially planned to equip the future TF2000-class air warfare destroyer, scheduled to enter service with the Turkish Navy by 2027. However, the plans changed as a result of the sanctions, and the SSB accelerated the project. According to the SSB’s agenda, the first I-class frigate is expected to be commissioned in 2023.
MDAS variants are expected to launch two Turkish weapons currently undergoing tests: the long-range air defense missile Siper, or Hisar-U; and the cruise missile Gezgin meant for tactical land-attack missions.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ource=twitter.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+DFN

Nothing in this article is requires anonymous source. I believe the anonymous source is figment of his imagination. Many here can write a better article with open sources. This is Burak Ege Bekdil quality.

 

[Philips]

Nothing in this article is requires anonymous source. I believe the anonymous source is figment of his imagination. Many here can write a better article with open sources. This is Burak Ege Bokdil quality.

Why though? The information seems fine and plausible? Whats wrong with it?

 

[Spook]

Why though? The information seems fine and plausible? Whats wrong with it?

Atmaca can't be launched from VLS. There have been at least 2 interviews with officials talking about national VLS. Info in the article does not require "anonymous" source. The article overall lacks detail. Go back in the pages of this in this or other forums. You can find more info, analysis. All of them from open sources.

 

[Philips]

Atmaca can't be launched from VLS. There have been at least 2 interviews with officials talking about national VLS. Info in the article does not require "anonymous" source. The article overall lacks detail. Go back in the pages of this in this or other forums. You can find more info, analysis. All of them from open sources.

What kind of details have been mentioned before about the MDAS? Certainly not length. Why don't you show me the two interviews where officials talk about the VLS?

 

[Anmdt]

What kind of details have been mentioned before about the MDAS? Certainly not length. Why don't you show me the two interviews where officials talk about the VLS?

Need any sources or experts to talk about the length? It will be around the Mk41 which was ordered for I-Class. It can be a little shorter, a little longer by ~5%, does it really matter to the public or any relevance which it will change the discussions in here?

They can instead write like ibrahim sunnetci with some analysis, affects, how it possibly affect schedule, how possibly it will be implemented in future, will it offer flexible interface like Ex-LS with EDAS of Tubitak.

Launching gezgin is not even the priority for Navy, neither it is a Navy project as of now.

 

[Philips]

Atmaca can't be launched from VLS.

The Tomahawk which is larger and heavier can. So I don't see why the ATMACA can't be launched from a VLS. I don't say its true, but it is plausible.

Need any sources or experts to talk about the length? It will be around the Mk41 which was ordered for I-Class. It can be a little shorter, a little longer by ~5%, does it really matter to the public or any relevance which it will change the discussions in here?

Well the Mk41 comes in three lengths from 5.3m to 7.7m. That the MDAS is 8m long is nice to know. Perhaps you don't find it intriguing but I do.

They can instead write like ibrahim sunnetci with some analysis, affects, how it possibly affect schedule, how possibly it will be implemented in future, will it offer flexible interface like Ex-LS with EDAS of Tubitak.

Why bring up Sunnetci in this? If Ozberk wants to write his articles in his own way, who should tell him to do otherwise?

Why be triggered by a simple article like this?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

MDAS will be 8 meters long — 30 centimeters longer than Mk 41,” the source said on condition of anonymity.

MDAS height: 8m
Mk41 height: 7,7m
Sylver A43 height: 4,3m
Sylver A50 height: 5m
Sylver A70 height: 7,6m

 

[kimov]

German submarines are giving Turkey an edge over Greece

That may make the eastern Mediterranean less stable

www.economist.com

is copy and paste articles allowed at defencehub?

German submarines are giving Turkey an edge over Greece
That may make the eastern Mediterranean less stable
Jul 3rd 2021

ON THE SOUTHERN shore of the Gulf of Izmit, at the Golcuk shipyard, Turkey’s naval future is slowly taking shape. The first of six German-designed submarines lies in the water, after being floated out from its dock in March. The Piri Reis will join the fleet next year; five other Reis-class subs will follow in successive years. It is a triumph for Turkey’s navy—and a headache for Greece.

Over the past year Turkey and Greece, despite both being members of NATO, have sparred in the Mediterranean. Their warships collided last summer after Turkey sent a survey vessel into disputed waters. Greece responded by rallying allies in Europe and the Middle East, bought a slew of French warplanes and, in December, announced a doubling of defence spending to €5.5bn ($6.6bn). That, though, is still less than half the Turkish level. Turkey’s navy is bigger and newer. And the Anadolu, a Spanish-designed light aircraft-carrier, is in the final stages of construction.

The new submarines would compound the problem. The Reis-class is a version of Germany’s Type 214, which is operated by the navies of Portugal, South Korea and Greece itself. An important feature is air-independent propulsion (AIP), which allows subs to go without the air supply that a diesel engine would usually require. A traditional diesel-electric sub can stay under water for two or three days. Those with AIP can do so for three weeks, says Johannes Peters of the Institute for Security Policy Kiel, and with “almost zero noise emissions” compared with noisier nuclear-powered subs, whose reactors cannot be turned off. That is perfect for the shallow waters around Greco-Turkish flashpoints.

The addition of six cutting-edge boats is a plus for NATO. The alliance’s southern flank is heating up: on June 23rd Russian ships fired shots towards a British destroyer in Crimean waters. Two days later Russia began air and sea exercises in the Mediterranean, sparring with a British aircraft-carrier strike group in the region. Then an American nuclear-armed submarine showed up in Gibraltar. At the same time, the subs “will reshape the naval balance between Greece and Turkey”, says Emmanuel Karagiannis of King’s College London.
A two-edged sword

The subs could be used for intelligence-gathering in disputed waters, including snooping around undersea cables that Greece plans to build to reach Cyprus, Egypt and Israel. The subs may be armed with medium-range anti-ship missiles which could “largely neutralise Greek anti-submarine warfare capabilities”, adds Mr Karagiannis, although much depends on how well Turkey can integrate its indigenous weapons into the German design.

Although Greece did not oppose the sub deal when it was agreed in 2009, last year’s jousting changed things. “We’re not saying, ‘You shouldn’t sell them to Turkey,’” says a Greek official. “What we are saying now is, ‘You should not sell them to this Turkey.’” Greece wants Germany to halt the sale and says that the subs could be sold to another country. It points to the example of America, which barred Turkey from buying F-35 jets two years ago after it bought a Russian air-defence system. Yet these pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

Several EU countries limited arms exports to Turkey in 2019, following its offensive in Syria. But after last year’s kerfuffle in the Mediterranean, Germany, Italy, Spain and others blocked a Greek push for a full arms embargo. Then on June 13th Germany’s ruling parties rejected a motion backed by socialist and Green parties to stop weapons sales to Turkey.

Germany’s resistance to scuttling the submarine deal is unsurprising. It is thought to be worth $3.5bn, a hefty sum compared with total German arms exports of $14bn over the past decade. The country commands the world market for submarines, in particular, having sold more than 120 of them to 17 navies since the 1960s. The latest potential customer is Australia, which is toying with the idea of buying German Type 214s to fill the gap until newer French subs arrive in the 2030s.

Yet pecuniary motives are not the whole story. Turkey’s relationship with the EU and its place in NATO have become deeply divisive issues within both institutions. France, Greece and Cyprus are eager to push back at what they see as Turkey’s aggressive and expansionist behaviour. By contrast, Germany—like Italy, Poland and Spain—wants to prevent the relationship from collapsing in acrimony.

In part, that is to keep migration in check. Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, is “obsessed” with the issue, complains the Greek official. “She’s allowing Turkey to blackmail Europe,” he adds. After an EU summit on June 24th, Mrs Merkel said that the bloc had agreed to provide €3bn for migrants in Turkey to follow on from a €6bn package approved in 2016. Although the number of illegal crossings from the eastern Mediterranean is down by half compared to last year, there remain over 3m refugees in Turkey.

Wider considerations are at play. Some are strategic. Germany sees Turkey as a bulwark on NATO’s southern flank, where Russia is reasserting itself. Others are domestic. Germany has the largest Turkish diaspora anywhere in the world, with around 3m people of Turkish origin. “Germany’s relationship with Turkey is not only a matter of foreign policy, but also a domestic issue,” says Sinem Adar of the Centre for Applied Turkey Studies in Berlin.

It helps Germany’s case that the Mediterranean is calm for now. So far this year NATO has convened six rounds of talks between the Greek and Turkish armed forces, leading to the creation of a military hotline for use in crises. Negotiations between the two countries over drilling rights and related issues resumed earlier this year, though progress is slow. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Greece’s prime minister, met Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s president, on the sidelines of a NATO summit on June 14th.

Even so, just over a week later Turkey announced military exercises in the Aegean after accusing Greece of breaking an old understanding to avoid such exercises in the summer months. Next year the drills may involve the Piri Reis, watching silently from the deep. ■

 

[Cabatli_TR]

7m Sylver A70 and the variety of missiles this launcher is able to fire

 

[Hexciter]

MDAS will be 8 meters long — 30 centimeters longer than Mk 41,” the source said on condition of anonymity.

MDAS height: 8m
Mk41 height: 7,7m
Sylver A43 height: 4,3m
Sylver A50 height: 5m
Sylver A70 height: 7m

Bro, you can correct wrong numbers via following link.
e.g. the A70 is 7.6 meters tall, the strike size Mk41 can hold a missile up to 6.55 meters, etc.

Vertical Launching Systems and the Type 26

Much discussion has been caused by the Type 26 model shown at DSEI 2013, as this new model showed just 16 VLS Strike Length cells ins...

ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com

 

[Philips]

Turkey to roll out defense products as foreign interest gains pace

There is vivid interest in Turkey’s defense industry products from countries all around the world, Defense Industries Presidency Chairperson Ismail Demir...

www.dailysabah.com

Turkey has kamikaze drones and might also have kamikaze marine vessels, Demir underlined, saying that Turkey is considering furthering its capacities in this area.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Bro, you can correct wrong numbers via following link.
e.g. the A70 is 7.6 meters tall, the strike size Mk41 can hold a missile up to 6.55 meters, etc.

Vertical Launching Systems and the Type 26

Much discussion has been caused by the Type 26 model shown at DSEI 2013, as this new model showed just 16 VLS Strike Length cells ins...

ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com

The figures are almost same with them bro but there is a mistake at my figures for Sylver. Strike size Mk41 VLS 303 inch: 7,69m and can hold missiles up to 6,55m but It seems A70 Sylver has 7,6m height.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

German submarines are giving Turkey an edge over Greece

That may make the eastern Mediterranean less stable

www.economist.com

is copy and paste articles allowed at defencehub?

German submarines are giving Turkey an edge over Greece
That may make the eastern Mediterranean less stable
Jul 3rd 2021

ON THE SOUTHERN shore of the Gulf of Izmit, at the Golcuk shipyard, Turkey’s naval future is slowly taking shape. The first of six German-designed submarines lies in the water, after being floated out from its dock in March. The Piri Reis will join the fleet next year; five other Reis-class subs will follow in successive years. It is a triumph for Turkey’s navy—and a headache for Greece.

Over the past year Turkey and Greece, despite both being members of NATO, have sparred in the Mediterranean. Their warships collided last summer after Turkey sent a survey vessel into disputed waters. Greece responded by rallying allies in Europe and the Middle East, bought a slew of French warplanes and, in December, announced a doubling of defence spending to €5.5bn ($6.6bn). That, though, is still less than half the Turkish level. Turkey’s navy is bigger and newer. And the Anadolu, a Spanish-designed light aircraft-carrier, is in the final stages of construction.

The new submarines would compound the problem. The Reis-class is a version of Germany’s Type 214, which is operated by the navies of Portugal, South Korea and Greece itself. An important feature is air-independent propulsion (AIP), which allows subs to go without the air supply that a diesel engine would usually require. A traditional diesel-electric sub can stay under water for two or three days. Those with AIP can do so for three weeks, says Johannes Peters of the Institute for Security Policy Kiel, and with “almost zero noise emissions” compared with noisier nuclear-powered subs, whose reactors cannot be turned off. That is perfect for the shallow waters around Greco-Turkish flashpoints.

The addition of six cutting-edge boats is a plus for NATO. The alliance’s southern flank is heating up: on June 23rd Russian ships fired shots towards a British destroyer in Crimean waters. Two days later Russia began air and sea exercises in the Mediterranean, sparring with a British aircraft-carrier strike group in the region. Then an American nuclear-armed submarine showed up in Gibraltar. At the same time, the subs “will reshape the naval balance between Greece and Turkey”, says Emmanuel Karagiannis of King’s College London.
A two-edged sword

The subs could be used for intelligence-gathering in disputed waters, including snooping around undersea cables that Greece plans to build to reach Cyprus, Egypt and Israel. The subs may be armed with medium-range anti-ship missiles which could “largely neutralise Greek anti-submarine warfare capabilities”, adds Mr Karagiannis, although much depends on how well Turkey can integrate its indigenous weapons into the German design.

Although Greece did not oppose the sub deal when it was agreed in 2009, last year’s jousting changed things. “We’re not saying, ‘You shouldn’t sell them to Turkey,’” says a Greek official. “What we are saying now is, ‘You should not sell them to this Turkey.’” Greece wants Germany to halt the sale and says that the subs could be sold to another country. It points to the example of America, which barred Turkey from buying F-35 jets two years ago after it bought a Russian air-defence system. Yet these pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

Several EU countries limited arms exports to Turkey in 2019, following its offensive in Syria. But after last year’s kerfuffle in the Mediterranean, Germany, Italy, Spain and others blocked a Greek push for a full arms embargo. Then on June 13th Germany’s ruling parties rejected a motion backed by socialist and Green parties to stop weapons sales to Turkey.

Germany’s resistance to scuttling the submarine deal is unsurprising. It is thought to be worth $3.5bn, a hefty sum compared with total German arms exports of $14bn over the past decade. The country commands the world market for submarines, in particular, having sold more than 120 of them to 17 navies since the 1960s. The latest potential customer is Australia, which is toying with the idea of buying German Type 214s to fill the gap until newer French subs arrive in the 2030s.

Yet pecuniary motives are not the whole story. Turkey’s relationship with the EU and its place in NATO have become deeply divisive issues within both institutions. France, Greece and Cyprus are eager to push back at what they see as Turkey’s aggressive and expansionist behaviour. By contrast, Germany—like Italy, Poland and Spain—wants to prevent the relationship from collapsing in acrimony.

In part, that is to keep migration in check. Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, is “obsessed” with the issue, complains the Greek official. “She’s allowing Turkey to blackmail Europe,” he adds. After an EU summit on June 24th, Mrs Merkel said that the bloc had agreed to provide €3bn for migrants in Turkey to follow on from a €6bn package approved in 2016. Although the number of illegal crossings from the eastern Mediterranean is down by half compared to last year, there remain over 3m refugees in Turkey.

Wider considerations are at play. Some are strategic. Germany sees Turkey as a bulwark on NATO’s southern flank, where Russia is reasserting itself. Others are domestic. Germany has the largest Turkish diaspora anywhere in the world, with around 3m people of Turkish origin. “Germany’s relationship with Turkey is not only a matter of foreign policy, but also a domestic issue,” says Sinem Adar of the Centre for Applied Turkey Studies in Berlin.

It helps Germany’s case that the Mediterranean is calm for now. So far this year NATO has convened six rounds of talks between the Greek and Turkish armed forces, leading to the creation of a military hotline for use in crises. Negotiations between the two countries over drilling rights and related issues resumed earlier this year, though progress is slow. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Greece’s prime minister, met Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s president, on the sidelines of a NATO summit on June 14th.

Even so, just over a week later Turkey announced military exercises in the Aegean after accusing Greece of breaking an old understanding to avoid such exercises in the summer months. Next year the drills may involve the Piri Reis, watching silently from the deep. ■

You can share the article by showing the source.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411234170915987456

#DaimaHazir

TCG corvette. I’d love it if they had more. But I hear it’s an expensive choice.

 

[Kartal1]

Turkey to roll out defense products as foreign interest gains pace

There is vivid interest in Turkey’s defense industry products from countries all around the world, Defense Industries Presidency Chairperson Ismail Demir...

www.dailysabah.com

Turkey has kamikaze drones and might also have kamikaze marine vessels, Demir underlined, saying that Turkey is considering furthering its capacities in this area.

Not a bad idea at all. A simple solution like this can cause serious problems for enemy vessels.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411234170915987456

#DaimaHazir

TCG corvette. I’d love it if they had more. But I hear it’s an expensive choice.

They are purpose built ships for coastline security and search and rescue. They only have 2x127mm gun and a 40mm main gun as armament. they do have a 10ton capacity helicopter landing platform. But I don’t think they carry a dedicated helicopter themselves. Also do not possess the stealthy features of our newer ships. However in the event of need, they can easily be furnished with other weapons. They all have a fire control and search radar on board.

​

NUMBER	NAME	LAUNCHED	COMMISIONED
SG-701	DOST	9 June 2010	5 April 2013
SG-702	GÜVEN	17 December 2010	22 November 2013
SG-703	UMUT	31 May 2011	5 April 2013
SG-704	YAŞAM	12 September 2012	13 May 2014

 

[Anmdt]

Not a bad idea at all. A simple solution like this can cause serious problems for enemy vessels.

Why would we need kamikaze boats while we can have boats which can launch kamikaze drones or low-cost AShM missiles.

One of them is far faster than another, and also affordable.

An USV in sizes of Ulaq can possibly pack 4 kamikaze drones easily.

 

[Zafer]

Why would we need kamikaze boats while we can have boats which can launch kamikaze drones or low-cost AShM missiles.

One of them is far faster than another, and also affordable.

An USV in sizes of Ulaq can possibly pack 4 kamikaze drones easily.

Drones are small, you can make fast kamikaze semi-submersible or WIG type vehicles in several tons with a big punch.