TR Naval Programs

[Windchime]

FYI, image has been changed to this, or i am not able to find the new document; earlier image used to be in this link:

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en/capabilities/naval-systems/combat-system-design-and-integration/barbaros-mid-life-modernization-platform-integration-project

But now instead we got this:
View attachment 46983

Also modified in the PDF document;
View attachment 46984

Any thoughts on why they are opting for 2 different kinds of CIWS? Seems like a weird choice to have 2 different gun based CIWS with comparable ranges.

I'd think 35mm air burst fired from Gökdeniz would be just enough. If I have a choice, I would rather fit a RAM launcher where Phalanx is, especially when those are already in use in TDK on Ada class. Else they could also wait out for Gökdeniz ER.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Any thoughts on why they are opting for 2 different kinds of CIWS? Seems like a weird choice to have 2 different gun based CIWS with comparable ranges.

I'd think 35mm air burst fired from Gökdeniz would be just enough. If I have a choice, I would rather fit a RAM launcher where Phalanx is, especially when those are already in use in TDK on Ada class. Else they could also wait out for Gökdeniz ER.

Gokdeniz and Phalanx aren’t the same. Gokdeniz has quite a bit more range. Gokdeniz has an effective range of 4 km. Phalanx has an effective range of 1.5km.
You may hit a supersonic anti ship missile travelling at 2-2.5mach with phalanx. But the debris will still cause serious damage to the ship due to the kinetic energy the pieces carry. Gokdeniz creates a wall of iron at 4km distance and from that distance the ship will not be adversely affected.
Our navy likes phalanx. We have them already on these ships. We don’t like throwing them away. It also creates a last level of defence.
I agree with you about RAM in stead of Phalanx. But if you look in to it you will find that, there is an unpublicised embargo on the RAM systems too. They are also very expensive. Aselsan/Tubitak production Gokdeniz ER , or even better Roketsan’s Levent using Sungur-ER missiles will be a better and cheaper option.
When they are ready, they surely will find their way on to these ships.

Aselsan/Tubitak Gokdeniz ER.

Roketsan’s Levent

 

[Windchime]

Gokdeniz and Phalanx aren’t the same. Gokdeniz has quite a bit more range. Gokdeniz has an effective range of 4 km. Phalanx has an effective range of 1.5km.
You may hit a supersonic anti ship missile travelling at 2-2.5mach with phalanx. But the debris will still cause serious damage to the ship due to the kinetic energy the pieces carry. Gokdeniz creates a wall of iron at 4km distance and from that distance the ship will not be adversely affected.
Our navy likes phalanx. We have them already on these ships. We don’t like throwing them away. It also creates a last level of defence.
I agree with you about RAM in stead of Phalanx. But if you look in to it you will find that, there is an unpublicised embargo on the RAM systems too. They are also very expensive. Aselsan/Tubitak production Gokdeniz ER , or even better Roketsan’s Levent using Sungur-ER missiles will be a better and cheaper option.
Aselsan/Tubitak Gokdeniz ER.
When they are ready, they surely will find their way on to these ships.
View attachment 47019
Roketsan’s Levent
View attachment 47020

Right... still, might as well just leave that space as is for now and wait for either Gökdeniz ER or Levent. Maybe TDK could later take that Phalanx off and put it on another, newly built ship that needs a CIWS, though I still think that'd be unnecessary added procedure than to just wait for Turkish missile-based CIWS. Especially considering recent price hikes for the Phalanx system.

 

[Anmdt]

Any thoughts on why they are opting for 2 different kinds of CIWS? Seems like a weird choice to have 2 different gun based CIWS with comparable ranges.

I'd think 35mm air burst fired from Gökdeniz would be just enough. If I have a choice, I would rather fit a RAM launcher where Phalanx is, especially when those are already in use in TDK on Ada class. Else they could also wait out for Gökdeniz ER.

Phalanx is being reused from the inventory, and the count is limited thus they thought of using it this way. If i remember correctly there are 4 or 6 units in the storage.

Still this may not be the final image, forward spot was already made to support Gokdeniz so it may receive Phalanx, but seems less likely.

Few reasons;
- Gokdeniz is heavier, this is an MLU thus the weight restrictions pushes them for Phalanx, the forward one was handled somehow but the aft position is higher and on top of hangar thus required additional jobs which was not feasible.

- Keeping budget low, purchasing new CIWS for an MLU, eventhough it can be scrapped later for use on another platform, may not be cost efficient. Thus, 2 x Gokdeniz was not feasible.

- US may not sell additional Phalanx, even doubting if the last batch of systems received an upgrade but it was reported as such. So, 2 x Phalanx per hull (4) is not quite possible.


- Gokdeniz ER - Levent may be operational, in best case, in 2025 - 2026. These ships are needed in service by that time.

- RAM is expensive, again US even didn't approve the sales for the spare missiles, earlier.

 

[UkroTurk]

Keeping budget

İ would agree with you if there weren't MAR-D.
The most expensive part of Gökdeniz must be a radar. So while there is MAR-D why not to use Gökdeniz ?
Notice currently on the ship there are 3 searching radar.

Gokdeniz is heavier

İt might be the reason

 

[Windchime]

Phalanx is being reused from the inventory, and the count is limited thus they thought of using it this way. If i remember correctly there are 4 or 6 units in the storage.

I see, that makes total sense.

Few reasons;
- Gokdeniz is heavier, this is an MLU thus the weight restrictions pushes them for Phalanx, the forward one was handled somehow but the aft position is higher and on top of hangar thus required additional jobs which was not feasible.

- Keeping budget low, purchasing new CIWS for an MLU, eventhough it can be scrapped later for use on another platform, may not be cost efficient. Thus, 2 x Gokdeniz was not feasible.

- US may not sell additional Phalanx, even doubting if the last batch of systems received an upgrade but it was reported as such. So, 2 x Phalanx per hull (4) is not quite possible.

Yeah, the weight(and physical dimensions) was also another reason I've brought up RAM, since the Mk.49 GMLS have a comparable system mass compared to Phalanx. I was quite aware that Gökdeniz might be too heavy.

- Gokdeniz ER - Levent may be operational, in best case, in 2025 - 2026. These ships are needed in service by that time.

- RAM is expensive, again US even didn't approve the sales for the spare missiles, earlier.

And those are some good points, too. So overall, it's more of a compromise, though a rather efficient one.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

76mm main gun completed sea trials

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560623253961420801

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560880603666550788

 

[Fighter_35]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560880603666550788

They have installed mar d radar on this Corvette?

 

[Combat-Master]

They have installed mar d radar on this Corvette?

Good spotting, yes that's MAR-D for sure. Rotating AESA radar should become base level for our naval forces

 

[Anmdt]

Yeah, the weight(and physical dimensions) was also another reason I've brought up RAM, since the Mk.49 GMLS

The final weight of Gokdeniz was not disclosed but without MAR-D 3D search radar, it should be about + 60% of Phalanx. Possibly since they have added an integrated mast on the ship already they have pushed the limits of stability and growth space of the original design, thus it made sense that way. Few tonnes usually does not matter to us, but when it is an MLU at this scale, it does.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

76mm main gun completed sea trials

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560623253961420801

I wonder if MKE will make 127mm too

 

[Pantelis]

Copy again?

 

[Fighter_35]

Just check this tweet series

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560695188967792640

 

[Fairon]

I wonder if MKE will make 127mm too

I believe they mentioned that they are working on 127mm gun for TF2000 during the first reveal of 76mm gun.

 

[Oublious]

Copy again?

ARe they using the same barrel? Why is it a copy?

 

[Merzifonlu]

Copy again?

With modifications, yes. Due to the modifications made, it is not considered an exact copy in the technical sense. Maybe even its performance has improved in some respects. For example, a new ceramic coating technology was announced recently to coat the inside of the barrel.

As for the 127 mm naval gun, we may have to change the main gun in the Altay MBT. Since cooperation with the Germans is out of the question after all that has happened, IMO we could probably use a variant of the 127 mm naval gun for the Altay MBT's main gun.

 

[Heartbang]

we could probably use a variant of the 127 mm naval gun for the Altay MBT's main gun.

I think a variant of 155 mm gun of Fırtına would be better, but this isnt the topic to discuss this.

 

[Rodeo]

Copy again?

Could you elaborate a bit? What is copy of what?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I wonder if MKE will make 127mm too

Not only 127mm (most likely we will see it in 2023 since CEO Mr Yasin AkDere stated that they accelerated the development of 127mm gun as well), but also "smart" 76/62mm munition are being developed bro.